cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: engurrand on February 05, 2012, 04:56:28 pm

Title: Need training
Post by: engurrand on February 05, 2012, 04:56:28 pm
As the forum section says beginners help and guides i decided to post this here.

I am new to this game, have only played 2 days, and i really need someone to take the time to help me practice. If anyone is willing to help train me i would greatly appreciate it. I'm not dumb but i can see clearly this game requires you to pay lots of attention to many factors at once.... For example, knowing the animations is critical to having a good chance, yet i am still new so i have no had enough time to view all the animations from different angles and find it hard to recognize. My manual blocking skills also need work, i have been using keyboard blocking lately, and although i find this much easier it is almost impossible to do correctly while also moving... So i must mouse.

Basically i want someone to practice with me with wooden swords and... well... Be a pal.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: OzyTheSage on February 05, 2012, 06:35:11 pm
If you can, try joining a duel server with people in it. Ask around there and you might find somebody willing to help you out.

EDIT: Also, are you NA or EU? You should try joining servers marked for your zone for less lag and stuff.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Teeth on February 05, 2012, 06:55:09 pm
Start off with firing up Native and pressing play tutorial. There are some bots there that are good for early blocking practice. You should set the combat speed in options to slower and fight the novice bot. Then work your way up to the veteran or whatever he is called and then turn up the speed to medium. Only go fight the next bot or turn up the speed if you can confidently block nine out of ten strikes while moving. First block standing still and then start moving around.

Try to move in certain patterns. So you are concentrated on your movement and blocking at the same time, which will be important later on.

When you can confidently block the veteran on medium speed you should go to the online duel server. You could also block the AI on fastest for a while, but in the end its not going to help you much, from that point on its just experience. I recommend you also try attacking back to get an idea how that works, but only after you can confidently block.

Doing what I described will atleast give you a good sense of the directional blocking system and moving and blocking at the same time. Blocking real players is very different though. In your first duels you should play defensively and focus on blocking and seeing what your enemy does. You can throw in attacks but keep focusing on defense.

Eventually you will start to become better at blocking till the point you feel bored when mostly just blocking. That is when blocking has become kinda automatic and your brain has time to actually think that youre bored. You should start with basic feinting (pressing RMB to break up an attack during its animation and pressing LMB to start a new one). From there on theres quite a lot of tricks and strategies to learn, the most important thing is that you watch other good players.

Oh, and block with mouse.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Loar Avel on February 05, 2012, 09:43:35 pm
Find the greatest player, figth them, die by their hand, repeat operation until you can put a good fight, repeat operation untill you can beat them.


Could also try the melee only server.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: engurrand on February 05, 2012, 10:29:14 pm
Thank you all for your advice.  Even though it's my second day i'm already lv 27 :D I never played native or anything, just jumped right in... So i have a pretty good feel of the "higher end concepts" but it is apparent i lack the muscle memory skills to effectively put into place maneuvers.

I'm going to go practice on the bot for a long time now :D
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: MR_FISTA on February 06, 2012, 03:13:56 am
im online most evenings english time, send me a pm on the forums ad il gladly jump in skype and help you out.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Zerran on February 06, 2012, 03:40:25 am
One way I found that helped me at first with blocking was to use the sparring practice in the single player training areas. Basically I just created a character, exported them, which creates a .txt will all their data, modified this so that I had a few thousand strength (So I would never get killed while practicing), imported the .txt in game (There's an option to do both export and import in the camp menu) then recruited a follower and just let them swing at me and tried to block them in the training area.

It's a great way to learn the animations and to get used to an opponent that is actually trying to hit you.

Once you get to the point that you can block at least a little, the dueling server is a fantastic way to get better at single combat. Just don't get discouraged if you lose a lot, it's to be expected.

The newby phase of this game is one of the most frustrating of any game I've played, but it is well worth it.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: engurrand on February 06, 2012, 07:48:38 am
okay.

After practicing with the bot on normal (veternal fighter) for about 2 hours i then went into battle mode ... was just dicking around but i did notice that my percent of blocking increased from about 10-15% to around 30%, pleased with the results but seeing that my mind could see what i needed to do but hands lack the finess to express that concept i found my self very frustrated. Not in a discouraging way at all but in a way that made me realize how good this system actually is.

The reason more people don't play this game is because it requires a lot of real skill...

So good... but omg..... sooooo mad..... Not at people, just... at my brains inability to learn faster better STRONGER
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on February 06, 2012, 08:12:31 am
I found siege a better place to learn when i started, there's normally newer people there, and there are respawns.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Zerran on February 06, 2012, 08:14:35 am
my mind could see what i needed to do but hands lack the finess to express that concept

This is exactly what happened to me when i first started to play. You see what you need to do, you try and do it, and your hand is like "fuck that".  :lol:

Seriously though, it just takes practice. You have to train your muscles to respond to what you need them to do, which just takes time.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Knute on February 06, 2012, 09:44:36 am
Here's something to try: go into the game options and turn your mouse sensitively way up.  Some people like having it turned way down too.  I like it turned up so when I'm blocking with the mouse there's less hand movement required.  You can also zoom your view in and out with the - and + keys on your keypad, I like going all the way zoomed out.

I'd also recommend creating skip the fun alts to try out all the different classes too, they go instantly to level 30 and have 10k to spend on starting gear.  You can make a new one every 7 days after you've deleted the old one.  Just pick a build from the solid builds (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,9160.0.html) section, buy a weapon or two, then hop on a duel or siege server and test it out.  When you try all the different classes it helps you learn their strengths and weaknesses.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: RandomDude on February 06, 2012, 11:45:40 pm
okay.

After practicing with the bot on normal (veternal fighter) for about 2 hours i then went into battle mode ... was just dicking around but i did notice that my percent of blocking increased from about 10-15% to around 30%, pleased with the results but seeing that my mind could see what i needed to do but hands lack the finess to express that concept i found my self very frustrated. Not in a discouraging way at all but in a way that made me realize how good this system actually is.

The reason more people don't play this game is because it requires a lot of real skill...

So good... but omg..... sooooo mad..... Not at people, just... at my brains inability to learn faster better STRONGER

Hey how does your mouse respond? Does it always up block when you mean to? Does it sometimes do a side block instead of upblock?

Maybe think about getting a gamer mouse - it really worked for me when I had that problem.

Other than that, it can be easy to misblock in a fight. I do it all the time and i've been playing for ages.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Dooz on February 07, 2012, 05:17:25 am
Nice. At this rate, you'll be kicking ass in no time. There's plenty of tips and tricks, but the most obvious and true one is the more you play, the better you'll get. And since you appreciate the game for what it is already and enjoy playing, you'll be getting better and better. Before you know it, you'll be doing things even before your mind recognizes you should be.  :lol:
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Vodner on February 07, 2012, 01:59:55 pm
Blocking is mostly muscle memory. After some practice, you'll get to the point where you don't have to think about which direction to block. Just stick with it for a while. Duel is good practice for blocking, since it only takes about ten seconds after dying to get started on a new duel. Just be sure to take a break if you find yourself becoming unreasonably frustrated.

Personally, I played siege rather than battle when I was first learning the game. Getting killed within the first minute of a three minute battle isn't really much fun.

The real frustration starts when you get decent at blocking, but you haven't quite figured out footwork ('What? How did he hit me? I swung first!'). Keep practicing, and you'll get past that too.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: TheNeX on February 07, 2012, 03:36:48 pm
As other said, duel servers are the best bet imo, to speed up the learning process.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Spawny on February 07, 2012, 03:49:43 pm
Blocking is mostly muscle memory. After some practice, you'll get to the point where you don't have to think about which direction to block. Just stick with it for a while. Duel is good practice for blocking, since it only takes about ten seconds after dying to get started on a new duel. Just be sure to take a break if you find yourself becoming unreasonably frustrated.

Personally, I played siege rather than battle when I was first learning the game. Getting killed within the first minute of a three minute battle isn't really much fun.

The real frustration starts when you get decent at blocking, but you haven't quite figured out footwork ('What? How did he hit me? I swung first!'). Keep practicing, and you'll get past that too.

DO NOT Duel phyrex with his spear. I did that last time and trying to follow what he was doing with it kinda gave me a headache. Trying to follow his feints for longer than 5 minutes may cause an epileptic attack.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Polobow on February 07, 2012, 04:06:38 pm
Have problem with muscle memory? Go play some piano. Then it will go natural.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: engurrand on February 07, 2012, 04:30:01 pm
i do play piano... But haven't for about 2 weeks ... gurrrr
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: TurmoilTom on February 07, 2012, 04:36:11 pm
Have problem with muscle memory? Go play some piano. Then it will go natural.

A fellow pianist???  :shock:
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on February 07, 2012, 05:06:25 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Polobow on February 08, 2012, 08:16:32 am
A fellow pianist???  :shock:

They exist yes.

I found out about pentatonic scales last week :D.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Kafein on February 08, 2012, 09:10:13 am
I'm learning piano. Must be my fourth year now.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Polobow on February 08, 2012, 02:59:05 pm
I'm learning piano. Must be my fourth year now.

Wait, what? After four year you can say you are playing piano. Saying "I'm learning piano.", makes me think you played it maximum 1 day-1 week now.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Lobster on February 09, 2012, 04:00:06 pm
Go to the Nditions duel server its native, its has different skill levels of bots, also it has a naked bot that does not die, stand toe to toe with it and only block, time how long you last against it, and try and increase it every time.

There is a chap on the server cooled Hideyoshi, he is the admin, ask him for a few tips. he knows them all. Once you get decent on Nditions go to the crpg duel servers.

Nditions server is better to learn on as its a level playing field, everybody is the same. on the crpg duel servers you will be fighting fully loomed morons wiith knock down weapons and pole stagger.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Dexxtaa on February 09, 2012, 04:56:51 pm
I wish more beginners did this. We'd get a lot less wimps and morons.

Good thread, kudos for taking the initiative. I'd like to know what continent you're on. I'd like to keep an eye on you if you're NA.

It's always fun to see improvement over time.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: engurrand on February 09, 2012, 05:53:11 pm
Go to the Nditions duel server its native, its has different skill levels of bots, also it has a naked bot that does not die, stand toe to toe with it and only block, time how long you last against it, and try and increase it every time.

There is a chap on the server cooled Hideyoshi, he is the admin, ask him for a few tips. he knows them all. Once you get decent on Nditions go to the crpg duel servers.

Nditions server is better to learn on as its a level playing field, everybody is the same. on the crpg duel servers you will be fighting fully loomed morons wiith knock down weapons and pole stagger.

Your avatar reminds me of ever quest PVP
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 09, 2012, 06:49:56 pm
If you can find a faction willing to play with you to show you the ropes, or just maybe a person or two and get into ventrilo or teamspeak with them.  That way whenever you have a question (you will bound to have many questions) you can ask them.

If I didn't have my bro to bug every time I had a question with single player M&B or crpg in particular, it would have been a lot longer learning process.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: engurrand on February 10, 2012, 01:39:21 pm
My 1v1 skills are noob at best.... yet i have much experience in gvg across many games and can see already the potential in this. I have commanded 60+ in pvp engagements before and this game takes the cake with strategy possibilities.

Looking at the videos i can find of big battles though i must say that most still seem undisciplined. Cant wait to join a faction, or something, for some strat gvg battles.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: k4ts0u on February 10, 2012, 02:02:32 pm
My 1v1 skills are noob at best.... yet i have much experience in gvg across many games and can see already the potential in this. I have commanded 60+ in pvp engagements before and this game takes the cake with strategy possibilities.

Looking at the videos i can find of big battles though i must say that most still seem undisciplined. Cant wait to join a faction, or something, for some strat gvg battles.

at which game?
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: engurrand on February 10, 2012, 03:34:39 pm
shadow-bane and UO for mmorpgs..

battlefield 2 mod Project Reality , ARMA
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 10, 2012, 04:28:17 pm
My 1v1 skills are noob at best.... yet i have much experience in gvg across many games and can see already the potential in this. I have commanded 60+ in pvp engagements before and this game takes the cake with strategy possibilities.

Looking at the videos i can find of big battles though i must say that most still seem undisciplined. Cant wait to join a faction, or something, for some strat gvg battles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgGrZYu0TII

This is one strategus battle I know of where the side I was on had really good in game organization and tactics.  If you are trying to compare real life formations and tactics you will never get that in crpg or warband.  You can get close, but you'll never be as fluid as a group as you could be in real life.  That is why cavalry is pretty dominant because infantry isn't shield to shield, spear to spear at all times.

The battle doesn't start til 1:10 in (it respawns once before the battle).

P.S. Brag Alert:  It's hard to see, but I got the first kill in this battle.  I was cavalry pushing their infantry from the left and couched someone on the side, and as our infantry met theirs our cavalry were basically riding in and out of the enemy infantry line (slightly behind them as we pushed in from both sides).

P.S.S.  I loved UO before pub-16.  making Trammel wasn't horrible, nor was t2a, but when they started making everything in your backpack able to be "noobified" it went to shit.  not to mention all the new lands and classes, was all downhill from there.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Cyclopsided on February 10, 2012, 08:47:57 pm
okay.

After practicing with the bot on normal (veternal fighter) for about 2 hours i then went into battle mode ... was just dicking around but i did notice that my percent of blocking increased from about 10-15% to around 30%, pleased with the results but seeing that my mind could see what i needed to do but hands lack the finess to express that concept i found my self very frustrated. Not in a discouraging way at all but in a way that made me realize how good this system actually is.

The reason more people don't play this game is because it requires a lot of real skill...

So good... but omg..... sooooo mad..... Not at people, just... at my brains inability to learn faster better STRONGER
You're going about things the right way. This is how you should feel.
Blocking is mostly muscle memory. After some practice, you'll get to the point where you don't have to think about which direction to block. Just stick with it for a while. Duel is good practice for blocking, since it only takes about ten seconds after dying to get started on a new duel. Just be sure to take a break if you find yourself becoming unreasonably frustrated.

Personally, I played siege rather than battle when I was first learning the game. Getting killed within the first minute of a three minute battle isn't really much fun.

The real frustration starts when you get decent at blocking, but you haven't quite figured out footwork ('What? How did he hit me? I swung first!'). Keep practicing, and you'll get past that too.
Quoted for truth -- this guy is the best NA dueler by far. It is all about learning the basics WITHOUT learning bad habits. Blocking and attack directions will drop out of conscious thought. You want that to happen. Your subconscious has a lot better reaction time and is more reliable anyways. It's all about learning things the right way. Detraining bad habits.... oh god it sucks. Let me put this in perspective.
I switched from regular attack/block directions to Inverted attack directions (regular block directions). I had to detrain how I learned to play. Chambering, every little skill, and relearn it. I was worse for about 2 months form that change, but 2 months later I was better than when I made the switch.
Don't go through 2 months of trying to cancel out bad habits.
Here is probably the two biggest things you NEED to get as good habits NOW when you start but nobody tells you.
1. LISTEN for the block sounds. Do not SEE that you blocked an attack. You attack back as soon as you HEAR the block sound.
2. When you see someone start an attack, you don't JUST block in that direction. At the same time, hit the movement direction Opposite of their sideswing. They have an attack coming at you from the right? You block right AND move left. And if they mess up their footwork badly enough (and you don't), You can actually swing on them before they hit you... But you'll get to that later.

My 1v1 skills are noob at best.... yet i have much experience in gvg across many games and can see already the potential in this. I have commanded 60+ in pvp engagements before and this game takes the cake with strategy possibilities.

Looking at the videos i can find of big battles though i must say that most still seem undisciplined. Cant wait to join a faction, or something, for some strat gvg battles.
Everyone is extremely undisciplined in large scale battles. 99% of people who play this game do not work in cohesive teams when they play in battle servers. What makes you think their individual footwork habits/ fighting styles (WHICH ALL VARY GREATLY) are going to mesh with teammates in large scale close quarter teamwork fights?
You'll learn this: People never let go of their movement keys for more than a second. Ever. That is really bad when you are trying to have formations. People don't know how to move as groups. SO when they actually do it, they tend to get slaughtered by enemies who are just moving chaotically like a normal battle...
The funny thing is the buddy system or a 3 person combat squad is the most effective thing in battle. So much you can do, cover each others' weaknesses, etc. Time attack so people die if they retaliate. Block for a teammate as he completes an attack into the guy attacking him. Crazy stupid amazingly effective stuff. All of which transfers over into formations.
So to you: Find a buddy. Play with them a lot and become a good team. You'll terrify every good player in the server after a while. They'll run away from you knowing they have no chance alone.



Idea!: Create videos on how to get good at things while minimizing bad habits.
Project for next week.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: engurrand on February 10, 2012, 11:36:46 pm
Nice reply.

Hey, i know what you are saying about the non cohesive members. Yes they are good at dueling and can own 1v5 often, but they cannot work as a large team. In truth these are the ideal people you want in a group setting. I use to lead battles in BF2 Project Reality mod, and the skilled players there were ultra skilled by them selves, outperforming 10 men at times (if not more). I have developed a method of leading that i call "Release the hounds" that is just for these types of players and it is highly successful.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: [ptx] on February 11, 2012, 12:48:20 am
I remember some of the first battles in first strat, back when they were still all about infantry, with no ranged rape - had some really good, disciplined battles there. No tight formations, but infantry forming a loose line in melee and being effective, with shielders, 2hers and pikers working in unison. Most fun i have had in this game :)

Unlikely to happen again, though, ranged power breaks up cohesive infantry really fast. :(
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 11, 2012, 12:49:00 am
There are melee only servers.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Nagasoup on February 11, 2012, 07:45:53 am
shadow-bane and UO for mmorpgs..

hell yeah!

wish there were more good mmos instead of the carebear themeparks we have now
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Zerran on February 11, 2012, 08:00:34 am
The funny thing is the buddy system or a 3 person combat squad is the most effective thing in battle. So much you can do, cover each others' weaknesses, etc. Time attack so people die if they retaliate. Block for a teammate as he completes an attack into the guy attacking him. Crazy stupid amazingly effective stuff. All of which transfers over into formations.
So to you: Find a buddy. Play with them a lot and become a good team. You'll terrify every good player in the server after a while. They'll run away from you knowing they have no chance alone.

Working in small groups is also just absurdly fun. It feels good when you take out a few guys in a round and help the team. It feels crazy awesome when you team up with a few guys and plow straight through the enemy team. This is the biggest reason I love to play as a support class. A lot of people prefer to be good duelists and run around with a 2H so if they get in a 1v1 fight they can probably win, but to me what feels so much better is seeing an ally about to get their head cleaved in two and jumping in to kill their attacker and save them.

Even if you don't feel comfortable joining a clan yet, try running with them some when you're in battle and try to help them out.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Grumbs on February 11, 2012, 12:58:39 pm
hell yeah!

wish there were more good mmos instead of the carebear themeparks we have now

(click to show/hide)

On topic, I think its really important that you just enjoy the game. Playing simply for the sake of getting better might burn you out, just concentrate on having fun and you will naturally play more so will get better over time anyway. I like battle because it feels like you have more to lose when you die and you can get some nice tactical feel to fights. When you get to level 31 I recommend retiring and selling your loom point (get at least 500k gold, up to ~600k). Keep retiring until you have about 3 +3 items, gloves, body armour and a weapon. Gloves + body armour looms give you +10 body armour. You can retire as much or as little as you like but I've had enough of that now after 5 gens, now I will just keep my guy at a high level. You never have to retire if you don't want to, but it might take a while to get some nice items
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: [ptx] on February 11, 2012, 12:59:22 pm
There are melee only servers.

That have 30 players on at most. Not the same thing.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: engurrand on February 11, 2012, 05:14:22 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://postimage.org/image/x0i6h2ls1/)
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Jarlek on February 12, 2012, 05:37:59 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://postimage.org/image/x0i6h2ls1/)
xD
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: engurrand on February 13, 2012, 09:36:56 am
So i have been using mouse to block and keyboard direction to attack, i tried out mouse attack but it's confusing...

But then i tried out inverse mouse attack.... It is much much better, it seems. Will take a bit to get used to but i think that this will help a lot.
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Cyclopsided on February 13, 2012, 10:08:42 am
So i have been using mouse to block and keyboard direction to attack, i tried out mouse attack but it's confusing...

But then i tried out inverse mouse attack.... It is much much better, it seems. Will take a bit to get used to but i think that this will help a lot.
I use inverse attack directions. I think they are fundamentally better. Your attack is already turning in the direction to hit faster.
However chambering is a lot harder with inverted
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Kherr on February 13, 2012, 05:20:42 pm
I use inverse attack directions. I think they are fundamentally better. Your attack is already turning in the direction to hit faster.
However chambering is a lot harder with inverted
I tested it today a few hours. It's very hard, if you are used to normal mouse directions... So far it worked best with spamming cause of the correct/fast direction. I will test it a few days. Imho you are basically right. (Luckily only one teamkill so far... damn...)
Title: Re: Need training
Post by: engurrand on April 13, 2012, 08:47:32 am
So i officially consider my self a "noob now"

up until this day i was simply below a noob, couldn't really control my self. I was wetting my bed.

I did EVERYTHING this thread told me i should do, and in the end i want to add that disabling "precision point" for windows mouse helped my game soooo much.

Now that i am an official noob, i thought i would let everyone know that i am now seeking "real" training.

Main training i need is in timing tricks and foot work. Someone told me "just do it lots and you will get it over time" but there is a lot of potential in foot works and timing and i dont want to get into bad habits / overlook something. However, i'm not looking for your standard "move the mouse and use keyboard to make your swing faster" help, i'm looking for in depth THEORY behind foot work for attacking, and defense.

Since i have started to pay attention to peoples foot work i see there are some fancy moves they use... This one dude i noticed he would duel regular, but he had a 'special move' that he would do.. He would charge with a left swing, and keep running past my right side, and then he would stab and keep running past me but turn around at the right time to stab me in the face, got me multiple times. I realized that this was a "simple move"... I dueled him again and used it on him and he died. I know there are a lot of other "moves" out there....

>...

But i'm looking for someone to talk with me in depth theory behind foot work and timing for defense and attack.

Title: Re: Need training
Post by: Jarlek on April 13, 2012, 01:43:08 pm
-snip-
One fancy-pants move I sometimes to is deliberately miss an overhead, then doing another attack. When you miss a swing, you don't get the recovery "stun" (or whatever you call it) that comes when someone blocks your attack/you bounce on something, and if you immediately attack again, you can get in a quick hit. Many people think it's their turn to hit after you "missed" your overhead, but since they usually hold the block, you get the swing/stab started earlier and thus hit first. This is ESPECIALLY a good move for 1handers if the follow-up attack is a stab aimed at the face.