cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: //saxon on February 04, 2012, 05:40:43 pm

Title: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: //saxon on February 04, 2012, 05:40:43 pm
Ok so the katana has great sword damage and dagger speed the only thing that's bad is the length and because its small you think its balanced yes its small for a 2h but the difficulty is 9 with the right build the length doesn't matter at all everyone goes Agility build with it and is always in your face just hitting and you cant do anything for example before someone was just hitting left right left right i blocked them and as soon as i went to attack he just hit me without a problem i had lordly heavy kuyak and +3 mail gauntlets and it hit 60% HP i had 7 ironflesh if someone just atleast put the COST of the weapon like 14K so the repair is high then yes it would be then balanced post on this Topic either [AGREE/DISAGREE] or leave a comment thanks for reading  :)
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Cup1d on February 04, 2012, 05:47:13 pm
leave ninja in piece dude. Or use longsword and receive same efectivity for less money
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: BlackMilk on February 04, 2012, 06:16:33 pm
Katana is still up compared to bastard sword
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Zerran on February 04, 2012, 09:54:20 pm
Longsword: Length: 106
                    Weight: 1.8
                    Difficulty: 10
                    Speed Rating: 98
                    Thrust Damage: 23 pierce
                    Swing Damage: 36 cut
                    Price: 6660
                   
Katana: Length: 95
             Weight: 1.2
             Difficulty: 9
             Speed Rating: 101
             Thrust Damage: 16 pierce
             Swing Damage: 37 cut
             Price: 9376

Longsword has: 11 more reach, which is in no way negligible;
                           .6 more weight, which is enough to avoid lots of stuns, whereas the katana can get stunned VERY easily;
                           1 more difficulty, but they both have such low difficulty already that 99% of viable builds won't be concerned about that;
                           3 less speed rating, this is the one point that the katana really has over the longsword;
                           7 more pierce on the thrust, which is quite a nice buff. Thrust on the katana is essentially useless, whereas it can actually deal some damage with the longsword;
                           1 less cut on the swing, a small negative, imo, but nevertheless it's there;
                           around 2/3 the cost of the katana.

tl;dr: leave katana alone and go grab a longsword.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on February 04, 2012, 10:34:18 pm
Apart from that, the OP's argument doesn't make much sense. Anyone with 9str will be having light equipment. Upping the upkeep by 5000 won't matter much to them.

The traditional ninja gear(lamellar, gloves, hood, katana) is about 13 000 gold in total, 9300 of which is from the katana. iirc the money gaining limit is somewhere around 28000 gold. To discourage 9 str guys(with ninja gear, which is fairly heavy for agi spammers) not use katana you'd have to increase the cost to at least 24300 gold.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Herkkutatti on February 04, 2012, 10:52:05 pm
Katana is one fucked up weapon. I was level 30 ,10 IF, 62 body armor /54 head armor and i lost 50%-70% by one hit and died to the second hit , and because i had gmaul i had no chance to do anytihing  (spam spam)
it was someone from ninja clan and i bet he didn't have more ps than 7 because that would not be ninjaish.
EDIT: yesterday there was 40 players in EU 4 fand 12 of them had katana O_o , Why? because its too good for its price and hits more than it should.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on February 04, 2012, 10:59:03 pm
Well, be glad you didn't get hit by a Miadao/Danish/Nodachi/Claymore/War Cleaver then. That would've hurt you even more or killed you.

In related news. I once got 2 shotted by a great maul on my 11 IF/PS full str ninja char. I mistimed the first strike and then got knockdown overhead spammed.

EDIT: I was on EU_2 the other day. There's just so many bloody greatsword users it isn't even funny. Luckily they don't have the hidden +20 damage bonus the katana gets, though.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Herkkutatti on February 04, 2012, 11:06:16 pm
Friend with 8 ps and mw danish gs killed me with 4 hits but agiwhore (prob) mw katana kills with 2 ....
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on February 04, 2012, 11:16:22 pm
Yes, that's the hidden +20 damage bonus it gets.

In all seriousness, though. Your friend, most likely, got in average hits. The katana guy got optimal hits.

For it usually takes around 2-many hits to kill someone like you depending on all the different damage variables that exist in this game. (19 str, MW katana, 174 wpf, 24 agi)
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: isatis on February 04, 2012, 11:19:55 pm
Friend with 8 ps and mw danish gs killed me with 4 hits but agiwhore (prob) mw katana kills with 2 ....
42/3
14 ps
1 hit
1 death

that's all

katana don't need a nerf, it need counter part: we need other agi whore wep (aka short 'n fast sword)

(also, the 20 hidden damage bonus come when you hit head so no wonder if you died so fast)




Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on February 04, 2012, 11:25:13 pm
(also, the 20 hidden damage bonus come when you hit head so no wonder if you died so fast)
That was irony.

And grab a bastard and count how many swings you do a minute compared to how many swings the katana does. It's only 2-ish more per minute for the katana. (at least with my build)
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Moncho on February 04, 2012, 11:30:15 pm
katana don't need a nerf, it need counter part: we need other agi whore wep (aka short 'n fast sword)
what about Wakizashi?
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Teeth on February 04, 2012, 11:34:07 pm
Katana is at a perfect spot now balance wise. Few people use it, because of the bad price/quality ratio. Still people that want to use it can be effective with it. It kinda has a unique role as a really good fast cutting weapon, but bad range and weight.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: isatis on February 04, 2012, 11:39:55 pm
That was irony.



I knew that, was just trying to explain to me how he could have died to a katana, the plus 20 was purely a coincidence

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Thomek on February 04, 2012, 11:50:44 pm
The katana has spiritual advantages not assessable by mere stats. Mine is i.ex cursed, that means anyone that picks up my mw katana are promised certain death in short order. Besides.. Ninjas have all kinds of tricks to maximize its damage output. Jump-slash + headstrike comes to mind.

Besides.. For us and most katana users price doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Herkkutatti on February 05, 2012, 12:01:09 am
paying 6 millions to devs who remove it  :wink: 
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Zerran on February 05, 2012, 12:35:36 am
Katana is one fucked up weapon. I was level 30 ,10 IF, 62 body armor /54 head armor and i lost 50%-70% by one hit and died to the second hit , and because i had gmaul i had no chance to do anytihing  (spam spam)

Perfect example of the "I am rock, scissors is fine, nerf paper." thing we keep seeing. Katana is an ideal weapon for taking on the great maul. If we always compared this way, then I could say great maul is incredibly OP because my pike can't do shit against it.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: zagibu on February 05, 2012, 02:02:49 am
Katana would be okay if hiltslash was removed. Actually, it would be kind of bad and would need a thrust buff of about 4-5 points.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Zaren on February 05, 2012, 02:15:29 am
you have to understand for the majority of the community that wont make a difference... anyone who has retired one time probably doesnt have to worry about the cost of their sword.......
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: El_Infante on February 05, 2012, 03:21:34 am
Katana is fine. IMO heavy bastard sword and longsword are better options.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on February 05, 2012, 03:30:56 am
For the love of fuck, a dude with a 24/18 build and a short flacion will fuck up your day.

How many fucking times does it have to be said.

Build + players skills = kills
Gear + bullshit = bullshit

There are no OP weapons at the moment IMO, there is nothing so dominant it can't be counted. Just because some dude with a Katana kills you doesn't mean the weapon is OP. In all likely hood it means you are poopy and should l2p you smelly nub. Go practice chambering couched lances with punchs you blue titted worbler.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Zerran on February 05, 2012, 05:24:10 am
For the love of fuck, a dude with a 24/18 build and a short flacion will fuck up your day.

How many fucking times does it have to be said.

Build + players skills = kills
Gear + bullshit = bullshit

There are no OP weapons at the moment IMO, there is nothing so dominant it can't be counted. Just because some dude with a Katana kills you doesn't mean the weapon is OP. In all likely hood it means you are poopy and should l2p you smelly nub. Go practice chambering couched lances with punchs you blue titted worbler.

This post is overflowing with truth.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: //saxon on February 05, 2012, 01:48:00 pm
Well, be glad you didn't get hit by a Miadao/Danish/Nodachi/Claymore/War Cleaver then. That would've hurt you even more or killed you.
that doesn't matter if he would die in one hit by them weapons you mentioned, the katana killed him in 2 hits and he couldn't swing back so its just like he got killed in 1hit in ALL that body armor, yes he had a great maul but with any weapon maybe not if he was using the katana himself but he would still be out swinged and got 2hit so all them weapons you mentioned wouldn't change a thing, it would still be like he got 1hit by the katana because it would of happened that fast.  8-)
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Thomek on February 05, 2012, 02:24:43 pm
I've tried all katana builds and dueled many many quality katana users with extreme builds. Back in the day, when the katana was even faster, there was never a time I couldn't block and slash back. My own build at lvl 40 had 210 or wpf, and Khorin had 225?? Everything was faster back then and no one really knew how to duel like these days where every noob can block whatever forever.

If you really really had no chance against someone it must have been a technical problem or your own reactions that was the cause. If you have bad ping (65-70+), not stable network, server load is high or a badly setup server, not fast enough fps (I recommend 60fps stable for smooth quick gameplay) or perhaps the opponent had weird ping. Check your network and graphics settings. (a little known secret is that on some graphic cards you can turn off pre-rendering of frames in the settings giving you a few milliseconds. Also I run dx7 because even though dx9 works fine it's just a tad smoother for me.

Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Leshma on February 05, 2012, 02:59:10 pm
I heard that Katana and other weeaboo stuff will be removed. I heard that from Fasader before he disappeared...

Ninja lobby is strong!
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Malaclypse on February 05, 2012, 03:24:18 pm
I really don't feel that money is a good way to balance items in cRPG at all. It's so easy to get gold, even easier with selling an heirloom point. Whatever the point of upkeep was it has been lessened by the existence of the marketplace.

The speed on Katana does seem a little undeserved; I'd rather it have length comparable with Longsword, as no other Two-Handed weapon really comes close to that speed (the closest thing is the Bastard Sword, I believe, at 99; even heirloomed it won't reach the speed of the Katana)

Looking outside of two-handed weapons, let's see what else has 101-102 speed. We'll glaze over Stick to start with, in one hands, and go up to Short Sword, Nomad Sabre, Yanmadao, Liuyedao, Italian Falchion, Niuweidao. All of these weapons are 101-102 speed, with less than 90 range, mostly in the mid-eighties; they cost less, but again, money is easy to come by, the game practically hands it to you now, not even considering heirloom selling, and they are underwhelming in their damage output. A few of the higher tier ones (Long Arming, Nordic Champion's) hit 97 reach, and the fastest "long" one-handed weapon being an Elite Scimitar at 99 reach with 100 speed. Even these higher tier weapons are slower and less damaging than the default Katana, with 1-2 more length, while requiring a greater investment into strength to use.

If the range of the Katana is really a detriment then I propose a blanket increase in all one-handed weapon's damage output to make up for their low length. Barring that I suggest a buff to the length of the Katana while bringing its speed more in line with the other two handed weapons, as well as some damage added to pierce or the removal of the stab animation altogether as 16p is a bad joke; .3 added to weight would seem fair in this scenario as well.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Thomek on February 05, 2012, 04:36:07 pm
If the range of the Katana is really a detriment

??

It is. Because the wielder of a longer weapon can often backpedal to skip a block and swing back. Katanas length is 95 which means you very rarely have that option, even against shielders. That means you most often have to block or evade all of the enemies strikes, there is no such thing as Evade+Strike. This goes for 99% of other 2 handers and probably 50% of other shielders.

This regime forces the katana user to fight in completely different way than the long 2 handers. Rather than doing range play (read: mostly gay backpedaling) you have to facehug and play with angles, go around the enemy. This is why athletics/agi go well with a short sword.

The katana has stats only slightly above 1 handers, and that is only in it's cut damage. You do use 2 hands to strike with. Take a stick and try to strike something with 1 hand. Then try 2 hands. See the difference? (ok some realism, but some people doesn't seem to understand that using 2 hands to wield a weapon can produce much much much more power and speed.)

You have to manual block almost everything, against a longer weapon you always have to block the first strike before you even have a chance to strike. No backpedal spam which still works, even against good players. Besides, range give you many more options in battle: Who to strike first, fighting cav, scaring people off etc etc.

Anyhow.. I agree with you that price should not be a part of balancing argument. It's the prime reason we use so few of the many cool and unique weapons we have available. It decreases diversity on the battlefield because everyone prioritize "The Best" weapon for their class/playstyle.

Fyi.. I made the ninja clan back then because I wanted to create an alternative to the mad min-maxing and gear focused play of the day. (And to kill archers with style)
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Zerran on February 05, 2012, 07:58:26 pm
(click to show/hide)

All this would do is further reduce the diversity among 2H. Why does everything need to be a slight variation of every other 2H? Why not have a few weapons that are genuinely different? Look at polearms, one of the biggest reason people play them over 2H is the diversity in the class. Why reduce the already poor diversity of 2H further, when the katana is NOT OP?
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: //saxon on February 07, 2012, 10:30:19 pm
i beg to differ non believers
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Black Wind on February 08, 2012, 09:17:57 am
Katana... An interesting contraption.

Okay, I'll begin my rant, by suggesting that it doesn't have 95 reach, as it has a hitbox that extends well past the tip.

On another note, it has 37c and 101 speed. When +3 that's 102 speed and 40c... If you combine this with the 9:30 build, you can have 187 wpf. I shit you not. This makes the speed of the katana absolutely nutso, and the ultimate spam wep. When fighting this, it's hard to time your manual blocks in accordance with the weapon speed. You may be thinking that with 3 PS, it will do fuckall damage. Wrong. A 3:36 agility build with a scythe rarely bounces due to the very small range of damage with high wpf. (this can be checked on calculators). This 3:36 build with scythe is relevant to the 9:30 katana, as the damage principles are the same.

tl;dr = With the correct build boasting 187 wpf, and a +3 katana, u rape bitches.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Dezilagel on February 08, 2012, 09:37:21 am


I can retaliate vs. Khorin just fine with my 89 speed poleaxe, if you get repeatedly spammed you just suck.

Voted no because the katana is in no way OP, a slight reduction in price might even be warranted.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Black Wind on February 08, 2012, 10:07:36 am
I can retaliate vs. Khorin just fine with my 89 speed poleaxe, if you get repeatedly spammed you just suck.

Voted no because the katana is in no way OP, a slight reduction in price might even be warranted.
tl;dr = With the correct build boasting 187 wpf, and a +3 katana

I've never played against Khorin, so you're claims mean zero to me.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on February 08, 2012, 10:07:48 am
You forget Dezi that the 9str build's189 wpf is 50% faster than my 174 wpf.

And the katana is slightly curved which makes the length of the weapon slightly deceptive even though it's accurate. If swinging at extreme range the katana contacts a microsecond earlier than what you'd think. It assumes the sword is straight, due to engine limitations. It's the same with all curved weapons.

In any case. The same can be said about the bastard sword. The amount of swings between the two weapons per minute is almost the same. And the bastard doesn't get stunned as easily.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Black Wind on February 08, 2012, 10:10:41 am
You forget Dezi that the 9str build's189 wpf is 50% faster than my 174 wpf.

And the katana is slightly curved which makes the length of the weapon slightly deceptive even though it's accurate. If swinging at extreme range the katana contacts a microsecond earlier than what you'd think. It assumes the sword is straight, due to engine limitations. It's the same with all curved weapons.

If they're wearing robes, it would be.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on February 08, 2012, 10:18:26 am
Oh, I forgot to take my equipment into account. I have 169 effective WPF.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Renay on February 08, 2012, 10:41:34 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Vodner on February 08, 2012, 11:27:15 am
Friend with 8 ps and mw danish gs killed me with 4 hits but agiwhore (prob) mw katana kills with 2 ....
Speed bonus, sweet spot 'bonus' (or lack of a penalty), hold bonus, head shot bonus, and a lucky armor roll likely all working together. A masterwork katana does less damage than a masterwork danish (it's listed in the stats), so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Quote
When fighting this, it's hard to time your manual blocks in accordance with the weapon speed.
No, it's not. The difference between 130 wpf and 180 wpf is minimal at best. A 3 PS player will likely be effectively slower versus any opponent with decent armor, since he will glance if he hits too early in the swing animation. With higher powerstrike, you can get away with hitting almost immediately after the swing animation starts.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: zagibu on February 09, 2012, 12:37:53 am
No, it's not. The difference between 130 wpf and 180 wpf is minimal at best. A 3 PS player will likely be effectively slower versus any opponent with decent armor, since he will glance if he hits too early in the swing animation. With higher powerstrike, you can get away with hitting almost immediately after the swing animation starts.

Yet Ninjas are the worst exploiters of hiltslash, how do you explain that? Since Paul's glance nerf, any high damage weapon (which a MW katana is), will very rarely glance at the beginning of the animation.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Stabby_Dave on February 09, 2012, 01:14:47 am
In no way is the katana op. Yes, a MW Katana is viable with extreme agi builds but you then die in 1 hit to most people.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Ninja_Murphy on February 10, 2012, 07:33:48 pm
Katana... An interesting contraption.

Okay, I'll begin my rant, by suggesting that it doesn't have 95 reach, as it has a hitbox that extends well past the tip.

On another note, it has 37c and 101 speed. When +3 that's 102 speed and 40c... If you combine this with the 9:30 build, you can have 187 wpf. I shit you not. This makes the speed of the katana absolutely nutso, and the ultimate spam wep. When fighting this, it's hard to time your manual blocks in accordance with the weapon speed. You may be thinking that with 3 PS, it will do fuckall damage. Wrong. A 3:36 agility build with a scythe rarely bounces due to the very small range of damage with high wpf. (this can be checked on calculators). This 3:36 build with scythe is relevant to the 9:30 katana, as the damage principles are the same.

tl;dr = With the correct build boasting 187 wpf, and a +3 katana, u rape bitches.

You are wrong, i often bounce with 5 ps and itsvery frustrating as you are cheated from a kill and it makes you seem crappy.
also when ppl said katana's can 2h the average 2h, that is bull, it takes me atleast 4 hits with 5 ps and +3 katana to kill a transitional player and armours around that, where they can one shot me or 2 hit me.

the only thing that makes the katana bearable is the power up attack where you hold alt+left click+ f4 and you get a massive boost of speed and 100+ damage

(dont press alt f4 i was joking, tards please pay attention to this addition)
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Gloin on February 10, 2012, 07:43:50 pm
Disagreed.It is short enough.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Zerran on February 10, 2012, 09:45:34 pm
Okay, I'll begin my rant, by suggesting that it doesn't have 95 reach, as it has a hitbox that extends well past the tip.

wat... umm... That's like saying you don't believe the danish does 40 base cut damage. The length has nothing to do with the model, it's purely based on the stat, therefore whatever the stat says the length is, that's the length. You could theoretically put 120 length on a dagger, and it would have 120 length, just a bunch of ghost reach.

You also seem to massively overestimate how much wpf actually does. Check the calculator: 40 cut with 3 PS and 189 wpf (I'm doing these calculations assuming no armor, which of course is a rare occurence) on 45 body armor is average 22 damage. MW danish, 43 cut with let's say a somewhat balanced build so 24/15 with 8 PS and 111 wm (assuming no weaponmaster, or just a nasty reduction from using armor), = 32.5 average damage on 45 body armor.

So, in this scenario the danish does almost 50% more damage on a target with medium armor. Yes, the katana is fast, but it's also damn short and can't hit nearly as hard. Not to mention that in order to use it effectively you need to make a build and gear setup that will, as others have said before, get 1 shot by most people, whereas the katana wielder will need to hit around 3-4 times even against medium armor, assuming average hits.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on February 10, 2012, 11:25:31 pm
Following on from Murphy, I have 6 PS at the moment and it generally takes 2 hits to kill archers 4+ for most others. Again death in 1 return hit a lot of the time, 2-3 tops, I've also been known to bounce off Rounceys although that hasn't happened in a while.

As for the stab on it, it's so feeble it makes me lol.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 11, 2012, 12:37:03 am
The Katana, Nodachi and Strange Armour is already deliberately price inflated for the cost, just like the dresses and Gilded gauntlets.
Title: Re: Katana Increase in cost [AGREE/DISAGREE]
Post by: Brrrak on February 11, 2012, 01:19:49 am
Up its cost, up its thrust.

Quit whining about shitty weeaboo weapons.  あほ馬鹿。