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cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: WaltF4 on February 26, 2011, 08:00:32 pm

Title: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: WaltF4 on February 26, 2011, 08:00:32 pm
I have conducted some testing on the effects of weapon proficiency and agility on weapon attack speed. The basic test was conducted by recording the number of two-handed polearm thrusts that could be executed within 60 seconds. I preformed the tests with a number of polearms of different weapon speed and with different polearm proficiencies. All of the reported values were taken from the averages of 3 individual time trials conducted at each condition. The following plot shows the time per thrust verses polearm proficiency. I have also noted the agility that the testing character possessed at the time of the trial.

(click to show/hide)

The most obvious feature of this data is the linear relationship between  time per attack and proficiency. The slope of each weapon line gives the reduction in time per attack per point of proficiency while the y-axis intercept of each weapon line gives the time per attack with 1 proficiency (technically 0 proficiency but the difference is inconsequential given the small slopes.) The time per attack at 1 proficiency has a linear relationship with weapon speed as seen in the following figure:
 
(click to show/hide)

The slopes of each weapon line are such that 100 proficiency results in a ~6.5% reduction in time per attack relative to the 1 proficiency time per attack. Therefore, weapon proficiency has a greater absolute reduction in the time per attack for slower weapons than for faster weapons. Additionally, these results show that agility has no observable impact on the time per attack for a weapon as there is not a significant change in the slope of time per attack verses proficiency between the different agility test conditions.

To put this in perspective, a level 30 character with 3 agility, no weapon master, and 110 polearm proficiency would attack ~5% slower than a level 30 character with 27 agility, 9 weapon master, and 180 polearm proficiency if both characters were to use a speed 94 polearm. The absolute difference in time per attack between these two characters would be ~0.06 seconds. This is significantly less than the 12% difference in attack speed one would expect if agility was providing the purported 0.5% reduction in attack speed per point and the difference of 70 proficiency was ignored.

Another interesting result was that all of the polearm attack animations (thrust, overhand, and slashes) take the same amount of time to execute completely. However, this does not necessarily mean that the time between releasing an attack and landing an effective hit is the same for all of the polearm attack animations.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Mr_Moe on February 26, 2011, 08:41:17 pm
Thats what theory crafting is all about!
Great post, thanks for the work, very interesting.
Do you know in which way Power Strike attempts the attackspeed?

greetings
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Blackstone on February 26, 2011, 08:49:33 pm
Quote
agility has no observable impact on the time per attack for a weapon

Interesting post patch change. I wonder if an identical test with a 2-handed weapon would be comperable or not to polearm, thus clarifying if animation in fact changes weapon speed.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: corto on February 26, 2011, 10:49:07 pm
i dont want to say yes or no, just a question:

i play an archer, so i stay at 0 wpf in melee every damn time.
i retired for the 11th time, and it is always like this:

the only thing i can use when lvl 1 is my nordic short sword (103 speed, 28 cut)

so, in one round i have the direct change from

0 wpf 0 pstrike 21 agi


then


0 wpf 0 pstrike 3 agi


and know what?  its damn slow and yes its freakin fast with 21 agi.

(no shield involved)
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: ManOfWar on February 26, 2011, 10:57:28 pm
I always thought 100 proficiency was enough to get by, another question is, how much of a problem is this?
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: dontgothere on February 26, 2011, 11:35:21 pm
Great post Walt!  :)  I wonder if all of your findings reflect intentional settings within CRPG...
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: ViiKOLD on February 26, 2011, 11:35:50 pm
Numbers don't lie but from experience perspective it dosn't make any sence. Agility does effect your movement and swing speed, maybe to that much for polearms but definately for 2h weapons.

IMHO to have a better picture you need to gather data using swings or overhead - one that takes most of the time to complete.
Cause playing str build I don't see a problem in making fast stabs but swings go really slow compared to agi build. WPF in both cases is close to 120.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Belatu on February 27, 2011, 12:02:21 am
/clap

now could be fine to know how affects athletics on that
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 27, 2011, 12:08:53 am
We need to make a sticky with ALL of Walt Analysis Posts in it, an official "Walt" thread.

Seriously.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Opium.dk on February 27, 2011, 12:21:20 am
So what you're saying is that i want WPF and not agility if i want to increase my swings with polearm?

I hope youre correct and i hope nobody reads this thread so i can outspam everyone.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: zagibu on February 27, 2011, 03:33:19 am
There's a problem though: you can't get WPF without agility.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Murrogh on February 27, 2011, 05:33:35 am
There's a problem though: you can't get WPF without agility.

But you can get agility without WPF. So it is easy to test, just get a character with lots of agility and use a weapon that you have no WPF in and compare it to another with low agility.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: WaltF4 on February 27, 2011, 05:47:11 am
I wonder if an identical test with a 2-handed weapon would be comperable or not to polearm, thus clarifying if animation in fact changes weapon speed.

so, in one round i have the direct change from

0 wpf 0 pstrike 21 agi


then


0 wpf 0 pstrike 3 agi


and know what?  its damn slow and yes its freakin fast with 21 agi.

(no shield involved)

I preformed my time per attack test with a practice longsword (two handed and speed 94) and a nordic short sword (one handed and speed 103.)

With the practice longsword,  1 two handed proficiency, and 3 agility:    1.16 seconds per thrust, slash, or overhand
With the practice longsword,  1 two handed proficiency, and 15 agility:  1.15 seconds per thrust, slash, or overhand
With the nordic short sword, 1 one handed proficiency, and 3 agility:     1.07 seconds per thrust, slash, or overhand
With the nordic short sword, 1 one handed proficiency, and 15 agility:   1.07 seconds per thrust, slash, or overhand

A difference of 12 agility had no significant impact on the time per attack for a weapon. The difference in time per attack was less than 1% and was within the error limit of this testing method. The time per attack for a 94 speed two handed weapon was the same as for a 94 speed polearm (used with both hands) when both are used with 1 weapon proficiency. Holding a shield does not change the time per attack for a one handed weapon.


There's a problem though: you can't get WPF without agility.
True, weapon master currently yeilds ~8 proficiency points per rank for a level 30 character who is placing all of their WPF in a single proficiency. Spending 3 attribute points in agility and 1 skill point for weapon master reduces your time per attack by ~7 milliseconds if you are only training a single proficiency.

Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Dravic on February 27, 2011, 09:04:23 am
But agility has impact on weapons speed if we fight. With higher agility, i think you can counter attack a bit faster.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Kung Fu Jesus on February 27, 2011, 09:07:59 am
I think the "speed" people are seeing is just timing. I've tried 3 agility and 24 agility. I always feel I am slower than my opponent, in terms of swinging. I think that's because my timing is shit.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: corto on February 27, 2011, 09:31:51 am
A difference of 12 agility had no significant impact on the time per attack for a weapon

1 weapon master reduces your time per attack by ~7 milliseconds

ok, i dont think ure doing something wrong in measuring, but perhaps u dont measure the right thing

what is around the pure "attack phase" ?
there is a "from block to swing" time perhaps.

i would need to test it -.-

next retirement..
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Erasmas on February 27, 2011, 10:44:15 am
Dear Moderators, all tests of WaltF4 should be stickied, IMHO.

Great job, its damn useful!
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: zagibu on February 27, 2011, 11:24:13 am
I was talking to Opium.dk. You know, my post followed directly after his, so there's no need to quote.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Raskolnikov on February 27, 2011, 12:39:29 pm
This is very interesting conclusion, but I can't help but feel the importance of agility is being understated. It might be an idea to compare different agility builds with the same base wpf, i.e. the attack speed at 100 wpf and 6 agility, then 9 agility, then 12, etc.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Teeth on February 27, 2011, 02:11:28 pm
Maybe the increase of speed with agility is based on the amount of wpf. If you do the same test on the page before with more wpf maybe the increase of speed with the increase of agility is higher. I just dont really believe that agi doenst influence weapon speed that much. Thanks for the time you put into these tests, really helps us to effectively build our characters if we understand what every skill does.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Torp on February 27, 2011, 03:03:58 pm
Maybe the increase of speed with agility is based on the amount of wpf. If you do the same test on the page before with more wpf maybe the increase of speed with the increase of agility is higher. I just dont really believe that agi doenst influence weapon speed that much. Thanks for the time you put into these tests, really helps us to effectively build our characters if we understand what every skill does.

i was thiking something like this too... maybe 3 and 27 agi is the same with 1 wpf but has a difference with 150 wpf.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: haxKingdom on February 27, 2011, 04:22:04 pm
this threads like telling people not to have agility or something

no agility = no weapon master
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Torp on February 27, 2011, 04:43:25 pm
this threads like telling people not to have agility or something

no agility = no weapon master

this thread doesnt tell anyone to do anything; it just gives the CRPG community some facts to help us make our chars
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Kophka on February 27, 2011, 05:03:30 pm
We need to make a sticky with ALL of Walt Analysis Posts in it, an official "Walt" thread.

Seriously.

I fully support having a "Wall of Walt' thread, he's a great researcher.  :)
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Z_E_N on February 27, 2011, 09:09:29 pm
On a side note, this is also proof that people with 0 wm barely attack slower than someone with high wpf. 

Shows that the wpf scaling should never have been nerfed in the first place.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: WaltF4 on February 28, 2011, 04:18:18 am
It might be an idea to compare different agility builds with the same base wpf, i.e. the attack speed at 100 wpf and 6 agility, then 9 agility, then 12, etc.
Maybe the increase of speed with agility is based on the amount of wpf. If you do the same test on the page before with more wpf maybe the increase of speed with the increase of agility is higher.
i was thiking something like this too... maybe 3 and 27 agi is the same with 1 wpf but has a difference with 150 wpf.

If this were the case, it would be evident in the plot of time per attack verses weapon proficiency. The fact that the data was uncontrolled for agility but remains linear is sufficient proof to me.



IMHO to have a better picture you need to gather data using swings or overhead - one that takes most of the time to complete. Cause playing str build I don't see a problem in making fast stabs but swings go really slow compared to agi build.

Every test I have preformed indicates that there is a negligible difference in time per attack between overhead, thrust, and slash animations of a weapon. The most likely reasons some attacks feel faster is that the different animations move through different positions relative to the combatants. For example, players can turn while slashing to increase or decrease the rate at which the weapon will advance. It should be noted that turning does not change the duration of the attack animation, which is what I am reporting on, but can change the point in the animation sequence that a hit will be registered. If agility affects the rate at which a player can turn, either directly or indirectly through athletics, it might explain the experiences of some of the posters.



I wonder if an identical test with a 2-handed weapon would be comperable or not to polearm, thus clarifying if animation in fact changes weapon speed.

I have data for the time per attack for different weapon speeds at 1 proficiency for each weapon type:

(click to show/hide)

The data shows that time per attack for one handed, two handed, and two handed polearm weapons have a colinear relationship with weapon speed.  One handed polearms are slower for a given weapon speed, even those without the "penalty with shield" modifier.  For example, the time per attack for my 94 speed masterwork awlpike with a shield is equivalent to the time per attack for a speed 74 one handed, two handed, or two handed polearm weapon.

(click to show/hide)

Also, from a limited test of time per attack verses weapon proficiency for one handed and one handed polearm weapons, it appears that 100 proficiency for other weapon types yields the same ~6.5% reduction in time per attack.

I want to remind everyone that the data presented here is the duration of the attack animation which does not necessarily correspond to the time it takes for the attack to land an effective hit. I think the most important findings are that the relative reduction in time per attack for increasing proficiency is constant for all weapons (~6.5% per 100 proficiency), the absolute reduction is greater for slower weapons than for faster weapons (6.5% of 2 seconds is greater than 6.5% of 1 second,) and that agility does not directly impact the time per attack.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Banok on February 28, 2011, 07:54:43 am
I love this sort of testing. Can you please tell me how you tested this? how did you measure the speed accurately?

Anyway I think you kind of shot down your own research here:




Another interesting result was that all of the polearm attack animations (thrust, overhand, and slashes) take the same amount of time to execute completely. However, this does not necessarily mean that the time between releasing an attack and landing an effect hit is the same for all of the polearm attack animations.

So your results might be meaningless since you are measuring the animation time not the land time and as you point out the two are different.

EDIT:

Anyway I know agi does have at least some effect on weapon speed because I have a 28 agility guy 0 polearm wpf who is noticeably faster than my last char who was using it with pure str: 3 agility and ~80 wpf. I think part of the diff is the delay after swing and basically the time between swings.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: WaltF4 on February 28, 2011, 09:07:04 am
Can you please tell me how you tested this? how did you measure the speed accurately?

I had a spot watch set for 60 seconds. I started the stop watch and counted the number of attacks I could release before the 60 seconds was up while I just clicked as fast as I could. I repeated the test 3 times for every condition and used the averaged number of attacks for all further calculations. There was never a difference of more that 1 released attack in any set of 3 tests. You could get somewhat more accurate results by using greater than 60 second intervals to reduces the digitization of the last attack, but I think my values are accurate enough for the sort of claims I have made.

So your results might be meaningless since you are measuring the animation time not the land time and as you point out the two are different.

The best I can tell, the duration of the animation is reduced uniformly through out the entire attack sequence. In this case, if the total length of the animation is reduced, then any section of the animation is proportionally reduced by the same amount. Put another way, if we increased a character's proficiency such that the total time per attack is reduced by 10%, we reduce both the first half and the second half of the animation by 10% each as well. If you land the hit within the first half of the animation the reduction in time needed to land the hit is still 10%. This sectioning can be done to whatever faction of the animation is actually required to hit, but the proportionally reduction will remain the same.

The only way I can currently think to determine if the attack animation is in fact reduced uniformly is to FRAPS a character attacking with different proficiencies, determine how much the play back must be sped up or slowed down to match the total durations between different test conditions, and then overlay the videos to see if they track correctly. I am not currently familiar with FRAPS software so it may be a while before I can actually conduct such a test.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: corto on February 28, 2011, 06:04:17 pm
hi walt,

i tested it again, and ur right. agi doesnt influence strikingtime.

but one more test, pls

i think i noticed a slower recovery from strikes that failed (if u stand too close to make a "overhead" the char "idles" longer without agi i think - maybe same with strike beeing blocked which i cant test cause i am only 1 person :D )

Quote
I think part of the diff is the delay after swing and basically the time between swings.

thats what i meant in my first post
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Kafein on February 28, 2011, 06:42:38 pm
I still think agi is very important in fighting. The time taken by a complete slash, miss and recovery is probably not much dependent on agi, but what about the feinting speed, the blocking speed... Alas those values are way harder to measure.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Torp on February 28, 2011, 06:44:27 pm
I still think agi is very important in fighting. The time taken by a complete slash, miss and recovery is probably not much dependent on agi, but what about the feinting speed, the blocking speed... Alas those values are way harder to measure.

this, agi might not affect the attack speed, but how often do you attack many times in a row?
The most important thing is the time it takes from you release your block till yu hit your opponent, and the feinting speed is very important, too.
If agi affects those things, it is still very important, not only for the wm
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Mak33 on March 01, 2011, 05:00:51 am
Kudos to  WaltF4. Thanks for the research and findings. 
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: LLJK_Korea1 on March 01, 2011, 09:21:27 am
+1
Thanks for this Walt, I guess the devs are now a bit smarter. They should recruit you do their math.


Welp, off to reroll my 20 agi..
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Tigerclaw on March 01, 2011, 11:12:20 am
I'm thinking Walt's an engineer or something in real life...

Solid work, good analysis. +1
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: corto on March 13, 2011, 03:31:34 am
the feinting speed, the blocking speed..harder to measure.

and those are the ones where i can still feel an impact of weight in attackspeed. if i put on my platearmor (normal armor is below 5 weight) i can hardly use my club. it feels like using a Great Maul from horseback but its my 100 speed club.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Rhaelys on March 17, 2011, 01:30:22 pm
For example, players can turn while slashing to increase or decrease the rate at which the weapon will advance. It should be noted that turning does not change the duration of the attack animation, which is what I am reporting on, but can change the point in the animation sequence that a hit will be registered. If agility affects the rate at which a player can turn, either directly or indirectly through athletics, it might explain the experiences of some of the posters.

You bring up an interesting point Walt. Even if Agility has no significant impact on attack speed, it's not necessarily a green light for everybody to convert their Agility-heavy builds to Strength-heavy builds.

Also, the inability to turn as quickly as your opponent is a major disadvantage in combat, especially if your opponent has high Agility and Athletics, as he or she will be able to move and turn faster, essentially running circles around you. Not to get this fantastic thread off-topic, but it's important to note that Agility is not just about the rate at which you can swing your weapon.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Boss_Awesome on March 18, 2011, 03:01:37 am
Wow, so my 15/24 build looks like total fail.  Thanks for the research WaltF4, gonna have to redo my build as soon as i can retire.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Gorath on March 18, 2011, 09:27:25 pm
Also, the inability to turn as quickly as your opponent is a major disadvantage in combat
That's entirely dependant on player skill and reaction speed.  I can spin my mouse to keep a target in front of me just as fast with a 3 agi, 0 ath peasant as I can with a 15/24 level 30 character.  This is part of what makes crush through so effective.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Rhaelys on March 19, 2011, 02:52:10 am
That's entirely dependant on player skill and reaction speed.  I can spin my mouse to keep a target in front of me just as fast with a 3 agi, 0 ath peasant as I can with a 15/24 level 30 character.  This is part of what makes crush through so effective.

I definitely notice turning ability when I have my normal armor set on (Banded Armor, Mail Gauntlets, etc) at 1 athletics versus 5+ athletics.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Banok on March 19, 2011, 05:52:56 pm
so i have 2 chars 1 is 29/12 other is 9/30

both 0 wpf in polearms testing quarterstaff on duelserver. there is defo a difference.

main thing I notice which is hard to describe and seems like a bug is my weapon gets stuck in block alot or just stuck generally on my str char. I get is occassionally in battle mode with my 2h weap but here i was getting it in like every duel. its like being stunned but its defo not a stun.
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Cup1d on April 01, 2011, 11:23:21 am
WaltF4
Mate, thank you for your time. Interesting info.
Can you in your next testing do some experiments with two builds:

1. 0 wpf. 15 agi. 15 str. 0 ps.
and
2. 0 wpf. 15 agi. 15 str. 5 ps.

Maybe PS do some role in weapon speed too?
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: NuberT on April 02, 2011, 10:59:27 am
I did some testing by myself: Both testruns were made in full gothic plate with long maul. I made overheads for 60 sec.

Build 1:                                     
(click to show/hide)
Build 2:
(click to show/hide)

Did 3 runs with every build. (The numbers are overheads/minute)
Nr.  Build 1  Build 2
1    43         43
2    44         43
3    45         44

But I cant decide which one is better in the end..
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: _Tak_ on January 31, 2012, 08:29:58 pm
We need to make a sticky with ALL of Walt Analysis Posts in it, an official "Walt" thread.

Seriously.

all the walt's post should be all put in guides for easier searching
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Zerran on February 04, 2012, 03:43:57 am
We need to make a sticky with ALL of Walt Analysis Posts in it, an official "Walt" thread.

Seriously.

Why has this not been done yet? I have to search through the forums every time I want to link one of his tests. These are invaluable, yet they aren't stickied. His tests have seriously changed how I play and my skill point choices.  :|
Title: Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on February 04, 2012, 08:20:04 am
WPF makes me swing faster?

Had no idea.