Author Topic: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility  (Read 22646 times)

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Offline corto

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Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2011, 09:31:51 am »
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A difference of 12 agility had no significant impact on the time per attack for a weapon

1 weapon master reduces your time per attack by ~7 milliseconds

ok, i dont think ure doing something wrong in measuring, but perhaps u dont measure the right thing

what is around the pure "attack phase" ?
there is a "from block to swing" time perhaps.

i would need to test it -.-

next retirement..

Offline Erasmas

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Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2011, 10:44:15 am »
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Dear Moderators, all tests of WaltF4 should be stickied, IMHO.

Great job, its damn useful!
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Offline zagibu

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Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2011, 11:24:13 am »
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I was talking to Opium.dk. You know, my post followed directly after his, so there's no need to quote.
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Offline Raskolnikov

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Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2011, 12:39:29 pm »
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This is very interesting conclusion, but I can't help but feel the importance of agility is being understated. It might be an idea to compare different agility builds with the same base wpf, i.e. the attack speed at 100 wpf and 6 agility, then 9 agility, then 12, etc.

Offline Teeth

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Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2011, 02:11:28 pm »
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Maybe the increase of speed with agility is based on the amount of wpf. If you do the same test on the page before with more wpf maybe the increase of speed with the increase of agility is higher. I just dont really believe that agi doenst influence weapon speed that much. Thanks for the time you put into these tests, really helps us to effectively build our characters if we understand what every skill does.

Offline Torp

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Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2011, 03:03:58 pm »
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Maybe the increase of speed with agility is based on the amount of wpf. If you do the same test on the page before with more wpf maybe the increase of speed with the increase of agility is higher. I just dont really believe that agi doenst influence weapon speed that much. Thanks for the time you put into these tests, really helps us to effectively build our characters if we understand what every skill does.

i was thiking something like this too... maybe 3 and 27 agi is the same with 1 wpf but has a difference with 150 wpf.

Offline haxKingdom

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Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2011, 04:22:04 pm »
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this threads like telling people not to have agility or something

no agility = no weapon master

Offline Torp

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Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2011, 04:43:25 pm »
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this threads like telling people not to have agility or something

no agility = no weapon master

this thread doesnt tell anyone to do anything; it just gives the CRPG community some facts to help us make our chars

Offline Kophka

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Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2011, 05:03:30 pm »
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We need to make a sticky with ALL of Walt Analysis Posts in it, an official "Walt" thread.

Seriously.

I fully support having a "Wall of Walt' thread, he's a great researcher.  :)

Offline Z_E_N

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Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2011, 09:09:29 pm »
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On a side note, this is also proof that people with 0 wm barely attack slower than someone with high wpf. 

Shows that the wpf scaling should never have been nerfed in the first place.

Offline WaltF4

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Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2011, 04:18:18 am »
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It might be an idea to compare different agility builds with the same base wpf, i.e. the attack speed at 100 wpf and 6 agility, then 9 agility, then 12, etc.
Maybe the increase of speed with agility is based on the amount of wpf. If you do the same test on the page before with more wpf maybe the increase of speed with the increase of agility is higher.
i was thiking something like this too... maybe 3 and 27 agi is the same with 1 wpf but has a difference with 150 wpf.

If this were the case, it would be evident in the plot of time per attack verses weapon proficiency. The fact that the data was uncontrolled for agility but remains linear is sufficient proof to me.



IMHO to have a better picture you need to gather data using swings or overhead - one that takes most of the time to complete. Cause playing str build I don't see a problem in making fast stabs but swings go really slow compared to agi build.

Every test I have preformed indicates that there is a negligible difference in time per attack between overhead, thrust, and slash animations of a weapon. The most likely reasons some attacks feel faster is that the different animations move through different positions relative to the combatants. For example, players can turn while slashing to increase or decrease the rate at which the weapon will advance. It should be noted that turning does not change the duration of the attack animation, which is what I am reporting on, but can change the point in the animation sequence that a hit will be registered. If agility affects the rate at which a player can turn, either directly or indirectly through athletics, it might explain the experiences of some of the posters.



I wonder if an identical test with a 2-handed weapon would be comperable or not to polearm, thus clarifying if animation in fact changes weapon speed.

I have data for the time per attack for different weapon speeds at 1 proficiency for each weapon type:

(click to show/hide)

The data shows that time per attack for one handed, two handed, and two handed polearm weapons have a colinear relationship with weapon speed.  One handed polearms are slower for a given weapon speed, even those without the "penalty with shield" modifier.  For example, the time per attack for my 94 speed masterwork awlpike with a shield is equivalent to the time per attack for a speed 74 one handed, two handed, or two handed polearm weapon.

(click to show/hide)

Also, from a limited test of time per attack verses weapon proficiency for one handed and one handed polearm weapons, it appears that 100 proficiency for other weapon types yields the same ~6.5% reduction in time per attack.

I want to remind everyone that the data presented here is the duration of the attack animation which does not necessarily correspond to the time it takes for the attack to land an effective hit. I think the most important findings are that the relative reduction in time per attack for increasing proficiency is constant for all weapons (~6.5% per 100 proficiency), the absolute reduction is greater for slower weapons than for faster weapons (6.5% of 2 seconds is greater than 6.5% of 1 second,) and that agility does not directly impact the time per attack.

Offline Banok

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Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2011, 07:54:43 am »
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I love this sort of testing. Can you please tell me how you tested this? how did you measure the speed accurately?

Anyway I think you kind of shot down your own research here:




Another interesting result was that all of the polearm attack animations (thrust, overhand, and slashes) take the same amount of time to execute completely. However, this does not necessarily mean that the time between releasing an attack and landing an effect hit is the same for all of the polearm attack animations.

So your results might be meaningless since you are measuring the animation time not the land time and as you point out the two are different.

EDIT:

Anyway I know agi does have at least some effect on weapon speed because I have a 28 agility guy 0 polearm wpf who is noticeably faster than my last char who was using it with pure str: 3 agility and ~80 wpf. I think part of the diff is the delay after swing and basically the time between swings.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 08:29:06 am by Banok »

Offline WaltF4

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Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2011, 09:07:04 am »
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Can you please tell me how you tested this? how did you measure the speed accurately?

I had a spot watch set for 60 seconds. I started the stop watch and counted the number of attacks I could release before the 60 seconds was up while I just clicked as fast as I could. I repeated the test 3 times for every condition and used the averaged number of attacks for all further calculations. There was never a difference of more that 1 released attack in any set of 3 tests. You could get somewhat more accurate results by using greater than 60 second intervals to reduces the digitization of the last attack, but I think my values are accurate enough for the sort of claims I have made.

So your results might be meaningless since you are measuring the animation time not the land time and as you point out the two are different.

The best I can tell, the duration of the animation is reduced uniformly through out the entire attack sequence. In this case, if the total length of the animation is reduced, then any section of the animation is proportionally reduced by the same amount. Put another way, if we increased a character's proficiency such that the total time per attack is reduced by 10%, we reduce both the first half and the second half of the animation by 10% each as well. If you land the hit within the first half of the animation the reduction in time needed to land the hit is still 10%. This sectioning can be done to whatever faction of the animation is actually required to hit, but the proportionally reduction will remain the same.

The only way I can currently think to determine if the attack animation is in fact reduced uniformly is to FRAPS a character attacking with different proficiencies, determine how much the play back must be sped up or slowed down to match the total durations between different test conditions, and then overlay the videos to see if they track correctly. I am not currently familiar with FRAPS software so it may be a while before I can actually conduct such a test.

Offline corto

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Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2011, 06:04:17 pm »
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hi walt,

i tested it again, and ur right. agi doesnt influence strikingtime.

but one more test, pls

i think i noticed a slower recovery from strikes that failed (if u stand too close to make a "overhead" the char "idles" longer without agi i think - maybe same with strike beeing blocked which i cant test cause i am only 1 person :D )

Quote
I think part of the diff is the delay after swing and basically the time between swings.

thats what i meant in my first post
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 06:07:08 pm by corto »

Offline Kafein

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Re: Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2011, 06:42:38 pm »
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I still think agi is very important in fighting. The time taken by a complete slash, miss and recovery is probably not much dependent on agi, but what about the feinting speed, the blocking speed... Alas those values are way harder to measure.