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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Arkonor on January 30, 2012, 01:17:19 pm

Title: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Arkonor on January 30, 2012, 01:17:19 pm
The current problems with cavalry is how versatile they are. Lets go over the good and the bad of each standard unit.

Infantry :

The good:
1. Highest damage output on the battlefield in full head on engagements.
2. Can endure the most hits.
3. (Shielders) have the ability to slow down the fighting if they see reinforcement near.

The bad:
1. Have the lowest mobility and can find themselves unable to get out of an unfavorable situation.
2. Do need more space around them to have full function. (Highly gathered up infantry is prone to be team-hit quite a lot and need to cancel their swings more often).

Ranged :

The good:
1. Can do damage from a safe distance.
2. Can enforce certain attack paths to be taken by the enemy if they work as a team.
3. Usually can retreat to safer grounds when engaged by infantry.

The bad:
1. They do need to be defended either by using the environment or by having the protection of other troops.
2. They die pretty quickly if they get cornered.
3. Have the lowest armor.

Cavalry :

The good:
1. They do decent vs singled out aware enemies.
2. They do great vs unaware enemies and usually kill them in a single blow.
3. They have the mobility advantage so they can pick favorable scenarios.
4. They do great as support for infantry by bumping enemy shielders so they can easily be finished off.
5. High knowledge/skill of the game is best demonstrated as cavalry due to less random factors like team-hits.

The bad:
1. When they find themselves faced with attacking a balanced group of ground forces they have few options to engage.
2. When they get unmounted they are heavily vulnerable for few seconds before they stand up again.
3. When they get unmounted they might be located far from any reinforcements and need to find/fight their way back.
4. If they only spend about the same as the infantry and ranged on gear they will only be using light armor and can endure fewer hits then infantry.

What I gather from reading over that list is that cavalry needs teamwork the least. On public servers that is a big bonus when teamwork is lacking.
Ways to balance the cavalry out a bit is to make them less successful in situation where the enemy is aware of them. This will make the cavalry more of a support unit for infantry and defenders of the ranged units.
Having them single hit an unaware ground-troop is in my opinion still a good idea.

Please do add good and bad points to each in your replies. If they are true pluses and minuses and don't crossover with others I will add them to the main post.
Having a better overview of the strength and weaknesses is always better when balancing things out.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry
Post by: Casimir on January 30, 2012, 01:36:00 pm
To fix cavalry you want them to be even more useless against aware players?

I understood the main gripes of teh cRPG community with cavalry was that they were cowards who only backstabbed / went for easy kills?
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry
Post by: Arkonor on January 30, 2012, 01:39:07 pm
To fix cavalry you want them to be even more useless against aware players?

I understood the main gripes of teh cRPG community with cavalry was that they were cowards who only backstabbed / went for easy kills?

I want them to be forced to team-play. I see no other way to do that.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry
Post by: Torben on January 30, 2012, 01:41:16 pm
Ways to balance the cavalry out a bit is to make them less successful in situation where the enemy is aware of them. This will make the cavalry more of a support unit for infantry and defenders of the ranged units.

you have to see cav in the context of organized battles next to the everyday brawl on the battle servers.  As you mentioned above,  cav has little to no viable options to engage  versus an organized and balanced group,  rendering it highly dependable on teamwork with the main infantry corps.

in an organized battle,  cav can only attack in limited situations,  of which the most are created by their teammates.

in short:  they already are a support troop.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry
Post by: Casimir on January 30, 2012, 01:44:45 pm
Worse at fighting people who are aware of you =/= Better teamwork
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Overdriven on January 30, 2012, 03:12:43 pm
Fixed ranged = current cav problem solved
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: MeevarTheMighty on January 30, 2012, 03:30:35 pm
Completely agree with Casimir.

Nerf cavalry as hard as you want, it will always be able to kill by ganking and hunting peasants and afks.

Cav can't expect a fair fight with alert 2h or pole infantry, so most cav players stay out of reach until they're sure their prey isn't paying attention.

Before the lance nerf, cavalry were their own worst enemy, because good cav could easily obliterate subpar cav. These days, cavalry combat is less interesting and more avoidable, so cavs spend their time doing all they're now good for: backstabs and ganks.

If you make a class have to act badly to feel good, there is something amiss.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Torben on January 30, 2012, 03:41:52 pm
Genemeve,  hopefully you dont take it personal that i dont agree with many of your posts : /
if anything,  the lance angle nerf only buffed maneuver in cav vs cav fights,  but it still seams to me that the better cav only go down if they make a crucial mistake...

also,  only since the nerf,  cav vs inf and pole is fair.  before,  the inf was always on the receiving end.

may I ask what your setup is?
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: MeevarTheMighty on January 30, 2012, 04:25:11 pm
Not at all, hope it's mutual. =)

I agree with you that better cav will still rarely go down to their inferiors, but I think cav generally pay a lot less attention to each other now. Even a mediocre cav can simply shrug off a pursuer and get back to infantry support/ganking.

I am in disagreement with your idea of the relationship between 2h/pole and lance cav. Even when cav had the LoC, an aware and intelligent pikeman would win every time. Now cav range and available tactics have been reduced and as a result, the group of weapons that automatically defeat cav has grown. Regardless of which lance you're using, it's nothing short of stupid to charge at a readied claymore now. In my opinion infantry has always had control in anticav fights, because even if they had to resort to couch dodging (rare if you can reliably chamber, but most can't), their relative manoeuvrability gave them the final say in who lived and who died. The infantry player also gets to choose where the fight takes place and in many situations, this will be somewhere unfavourable to cavalry.

As you asked, I have ~20 characters, about as varied as possible of course. Though I rarely touch my main these days, because it reminds me of how badly certain things have changed in the mod, it was a courser/light lance with plain cavalry shield and sword of tears.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Torben on January 30, 2012, 05:44:11 pm
ah,  wonderful. your clarification did help a lot.  I must say I only thought of the encounter of cav-inf as in,  both stare at each other and thrust away.  considering the infs mobility and option of taking the fight to a favorable position does once again show the cavs situational dependance (if that actually has a meaning,  sry for my english).

considering the claymore:  i will always,  always,  aaaalways go for any twohander welcoming me.  I consider it a treat for the good 2handers,  as they deserve a fighting chance instead of a backstab,  and a welcome sparing session with anyone else,  as the new lanceangles did make it more challenging ^^

than again I must say,  my playstyle is often a bit suicidal and foolish,  and I always feel compelled to run head on into any shitstorm that wants me,  so this isnt an example for anythin : /

damit I hope my post makes remotly sence,  I havent slept in for ever.....
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Vanular on January 30, 2012, 06:08:21 pm
if anything,  the lance angle nerf only buffed maneuver in cav vs cav fights,

Well that's certainly debatable. The new angle on lances limits the cavalry to only approach a target head-on, and not from an angle (an angle of himself, not the target ... that's obviously still possible). If anything, cav vs cav is now very easy to avoid and if you do decide to go against a cav it is more about a timed release of the lance (and therefore also more about lag) than anything.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: seddrik on January 30, 2012, 06:16:10 pm
Quote
Ways to balance the cavalry out a bit is to make them less successful in situation where the enemy is aware of them. This will make the cavalry more of a support unit for infantry and defenders of the ranged units.

The game has been "balanced" and "rebalanced" again and again.  There will never be total equality until all weapons are the same speed and length and weight and damage.

Everything has a counter.  People just need to figure out how to play smarter and USE those counters, rather than appealing for Devs to make changes in the game system/weapons.

Like Meevar said, it gets to a point where u don't want to play what was once a fun character because of "how badly certain things have changed in the mod".  I like disparities in weapon types.  Make the poles longer again, for example.  And bring back the lvl 40+ characters.  Tougher opponents makes the game challenging and fun.  How did you feel when you finally brought down that lvl 45 guy who killed 30 people?  GREAT!  lol   The game is missing that now tho...

You need another option in your poll:
"NONE OF THE ABOVE."  Roll back the clock on nerfs.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Torben on January 30, 2012, 06:22:39 pm
words

to clarify:  ...buffed manueverable horses in cav vs cav fights...  as you now use the movement of the horse to guid the lance a lot more in cav duels.  thats why the arab will always be the most dangerous  opponent if the rider is of same skill as you are.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 30, 2012, 06:43:21 pm
The game has been "balanced" and "rebalanced" again and again.  There will never be total equality until all weapons are the same speed and length and weight and damage.

Everything has a counter.  People just need to figure out how to play smarter and USE those counters, rather than appealing for Devs to make changes in the game system/weapons.


Your first point I totally agree with.  It's nerf-rpg, not c-rpg.  Reminds me of the book Harrison Bergeron by George Orwell. 

Totally agree with the 2nd point and is basically verbatim to what I've been saying for months.  I'm tired of the dev's nerfing shit instead of telling the whiney players to learn how to use tactics to counter the natural weaknesses of a class or piece of equipment. 
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Arkonor on January 30, 2012, 07:05:42 pm
Your first point I totally agree with.  It's nerf-rpg, not c-rpg.  Reminds me of the book Harrison Bergeron by George Orwell. 

Totally agree with the 2nd point and is basically verbatim to what I've been saying for months.  I'm tired of the dev's nerfing shit instead of telling the whiney players to learn how to use tactics to counter the natural weaknesses of a class or piece of equipment.
The piece of equipment needs to be fun as well. Running around with a spear and shield with one attack direction and shield autoblock is pretty boring to be honest. And you need pretty much one guy wanting to play that boring style to every player playing cavalry that most people would agree is way more dynamic and fun.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Vanular on January 30, 2012, 07:53:31 pm
to clarify:  ...buffed manueverable horses in cav vs cav fights...  as you now use the movement of the horse to guid the lance a lot more in cav duels.  thats why the arab will always be the most dangerous  opponent if the rider is of same skill as you are.

Okay, I see you're referring to the maneuverability of horses. I was more referring to the maneuverability of the lance. I don't mind less maneuverable horses ... I do mind less maneuverable lances.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: MeevarTheMighty on January 31, 2012, 03:18:14 am
to clarify:  ...buffed manueverable horses in cav vs cav fights...  as you now use the movement of the horse to guid the lance a lot more in cav duels.  thats why the arab will always be the most dangerous  opponent if the rider is of same skill as you are.

I think that has always been the best horse trait for cav duels, but yes, it's a bit easier for arab cav to get a good position now (because there are less bad positions, where they risk the enemy lance), but on the other hand, the target is much, much less likely to participate in a cav duel against arab cav now. Cav of all shapes and sizes mostly turn their attention to infantry, because reduced lance angle has made it much easier to escape a cavalry fight and it's a waste of time trying to catch someone who doesn't want to fight and can almost certainly escape you.

The piece of equipment needs to be fun as well. Running around with a spear and shield with one attack direction and shield autoblock is pretty boring to be honest. And you need pretty much one guy wanting to play that boring style to every player playing cavalry that most people would agree is way more dynamic and fun.

I don't see why you think you have to be a hoplite to fend off cavalry. Most high end 2hers and poles are just as good as a pike (and where does shield come in?) and believe it or not, you don't have to auto-win cavalry to beat them, you can actually try to fight them fairly: Furthermore, cavalry is that boring style. 1 attack direction, straight ahead, can't even spinthrust... unless that was what you were saying.  :?
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 31, 2012, 04:41:35 am
Yeah because in a game called Mount & Blade everyone should bow their heads to the mighty infantry.

FFS Its rage inducing how much complaining is going on.

Cav are not hard to deal with.

Another point is that cav often have resonable levels of team play. You see another dude on a horse and you know its a good idea to pair up or manuvre in a direction that is some what resiprical, play a distraction or hit from the rear.

I've been blown off my horse millions of times. My K/D ratio is horrible (too much time on NA) cav are not OP.

There is no problem.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Black Wind on January 31, 2012, 01:16:36 pm
Cavalry... Anyone using a heavy lance or couch lance won't have too much trouble with infantry, even 2h. I assume this, as if they thrust at the horses head, will a heavy lance outreach it? I'm not sure. A Danish Greatsword thrust has a long range, and so does a thrust, but the horses body from head to the rider is factored against the reach of the lance. This means that a well-averagely times two handed thrust will often rail a horse, rendering the often not-as-melee specialized rider to fight a build based for ground combat.

This is why Meevar and I believe that a non-retarded two-hand user, much less, a pole-arm user will have no trouble with a lancing cav.

tl;dr = thrusts timed well with greatswords/polearms will rail any cav user using a thrust lance, due to the 2h thrust animation, or the lancers effective range decrease if horse is struck in the head.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Spawny on January 31, 2012, 01:31:15 pm
Cavalry... Anyone using a heavy lance or couch lance won't have too much trouble with infantry, even 2h. I assume this, as if they thrust at the horses head, will a heavy lance outreach it? I'm not sure. A Danish Greatsword thrust has a long range, and so does a thrust, but the horses body from head to the rider is factored against the reach of the lance. This means that a well-averagely times two handed thrust will often rail a horse, rendering the often not-as-melee specialized rider to fight a build based for ground combat.

This is why Meevar and I believe that a non-retarded two-hand user, much less, a pole-arm user will have no trouble with a lancing cav.

tl;dr = thrusts timed well with greatswords/polearms will rail any cav user using a thrust lance, due to the 2h thrust animation, or the lancers effective range decrease if horse is struck in the head.

This. Aim for the head of the horse. Kill it in 1 strike, overhead strike the rider as he lies helpless on the floor besides you.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on January 31, 2012, 03:27:45 pm
This. Aim for the head of the horse. Kill it in 1 strike, overhead strike the rider as he lies helpless on the floor besides you.

ah the view shared by all honorable infantrymen, they despise "cowardly" backstabs (but only from cav, backstabs by inf is ok) yet they go for a cheapshots like this

oh the irony ^^
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Penitent on January 31, 2012, 03:30:15 pm
Cav are NOT good at all in head-on engagements.  Even charging an archer or a thrower head-on leaves me or my horse dead 1/3 of the time....in one hit.  Speed bonus, headshots...its not pretty.

Charging 2h or pole users head on is often suicide.

Only hope is charging 1h users head on.  So no, Cav are not good at head-on engagements.

Cav are good at 2 things: (1)attacking unaware opponents and (2)attacking opponents engaged with friendly forces. 

#2 is TEAM PLAY.  Its the best thing a cav can do for the team...stay near the friendly infantry block (if there is one) and charge into the enemy infantry from behind or the side and bump, slash, and lance the enemy that is trying to engage friendly infantry.  Cav is team play to work the best.

Sure, they don't have to team play, but that's true of any class.  Archers often go off on their own, and lots of good melee players go flank on their own as well.

The other thing that Cav is arguably good at is taking out other Cav.  Most would quote this as an example of team play, but I disagree.  Sometimes 2 groups of cav are just chasing each other around the map for the whole battle...and by the time one cav team wins, the infantry has slaughtered each other and the battle is already decided anyways.

Cav is not OP.  If played properly, they are totally a support class for the inf.  They can turn the tide of a battle this way...which is why its called MOUNT and Blade.  It's an important class!  Many players don't know how to use the speed of a horse though and just go off on their own...so its individual playstyle that determines if it is a team-work class or not.  To counteract the enemy cav all you need is teamwork to keep pikes guarding the sides or rear.

Stop trying to nerf everything!  Just bring archers back up to damage and everything is fine. :)
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 31, 2012, 05:23:55 pm
Nice post.  Obvious they should revert archer nerf and leave the fucking game alone already...it's balanced enough.  You nerf something and it makes another class more powerful, well then obviously you have to nerf the more powerful class now.  And then that leads to an imbalance, oh better nerf that new imbalance.  Nerf-rpg at it's finest.

And my pet peeve of fellow cav is when they are off fighting cav the whole round instead of trying to help friendly infantry when engaged. 

To be the best team player as cav you should only run interference on other cav, you shouldn't get into a huge cav battle.  Your goal should always be to catch unsuspecting players and enemies engaged with your infantry.  You should really only engage other cavalry when necessary and mainly try to aim for the horses head (dismount the player) and then move along.  Don't get caught trying to kill the guy you just dismounted, he's no longer a threat to your team, there's more immediate concerns.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Black Wind on January 31, 2012, 10:11:28 pm
Nice post.  Obvious they should revert archer nerf and leave the fucking game alone already...it's balanced enough.

this

Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Elmetiacos on January 31, 2012, 11:22:23 pm
Cav isn't OP as such, not in the sense that when you look at the kills table you see a load of cav players with 30 kills and 3 deaths; it's just that the effect it has on the game is disruptive; it seems too many people have pikes and everyone is throwing away their crossbows...
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Penitent on January 31, 2012, 11:24:59 pm
Cav isn't OP as such, not in the sense that when you look at the kills table you see a load of cav players with 30 kills and 3 deaths; it's just that the effect it has on the game is disruptive; it seems too many people have pikes and everyone is throwing away their crossbows...

Hmm...disruptive to what, exactly?

I've set up a poll in the Game Balance section to get more input on what I think can be a solution:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,25304.0.html
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Leshma on January 31, 2012, 11:40:18 pm
Cav are fine.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry
Post by: polkafranzi on January 31, 2012, 11:43:43 pm
I want them to be forced to team-play. I see no other way to do that.

lol, I want  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 31, 2012, 11:44:12 pm
Infantry :

1. Have the lowest mobility and can find themselves unable to get out of an unfavorable situation.
Only read that, its plain wrong.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 01, 2012, 01:52:06 am
Hmm...disruptive to what, exactly?

I've set up a poll in the Game Balance section to get more input on what I think can be a solution:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,25304.0.html
Since ladders were taken away and ranged damage was dropped, this is a buff for cavalry on most maps. A major hazard for horses was getting shot and now not only do arrows and bolts do less damage, but with no more roofers, the opportunity to shoot at cav is reduced, too, unless it's a random steppe. Crossbow use is in decline because it's harder to find a safe place to reload. Rather than increasing ranged damage (which will probably hurt 2h and polearm infantry more than cav) I would suggest lowering the Health of horses.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Casimir on February 01, 2012, 01:56:45 am
ah the view shared by all honorable infantrymen, they despise "cowardly" backstabs (but only from cav, backstabs by inf is ok) yet they go for a cheapshots like this

oh the irony ^^

I let cav up, just not ones who are from GK.  You guys get no respect.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: MeevarTheMighty on February 01, 2012, 02:23:28 am
Since ladders were taken away and ranged damage was dropped, this is a buff for cavalry on most maps. A major hazard for horses was getting shot and now not only do arrows and bolts do less damage, but with no more roofers, the opportunity to shoot at cav is reduced, too, unless it's a random steppe. Crossbow use is in decline because it's harder to find a safe place to reload. Rather than increasing ranged damage (which will probably hurt 2h and polearm infantry more than cav) I would suggest lowering the Health of horses.

I don't think range was as much of an arch nemesis to cav as you think pre-range nerf. Good infantry have been cav's worst enemy since the lance nerf, but I agree that this is only because of the high current horse health.

I'd also support a serious across the board horse HP reduction in exchange for a return of lance functionality.

This could return balance to the force. Cav would once more be afraid of range and would once more have a serious combat role against infantry.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: San on February 01, 2012, 05:38:50 pm
Maybe a decrease on the 1shotting aspect unless you have high powerstrike? The inherent nature of cav makes them really good and to tweak that may screw things up.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Penitent on February 01, 2012, 05:55:07 pm
Since ladders were taken away and ranged damage was dropped, this is a buff for cavalry on most maps. A major hazard for horses was getting shot and now not only do arrows and bolts do less damage, but with no more roofers, the opportunity to shoot at cav is reduced, too, unless it's a random steppe. Crossbow use is in decline because it's harder to find a safe place to reload. Rather than increasing ranged damage (which will probably hurt 2h and polearm infantry more than cav) I would suggest lowering the Health of horses.

So, they are disruptive to what you think the class balance should be.  This is highly subjective.  You could consider it a disruption, adaptation, or evolution of class balance in the game.  Maybe the devs intended for there to be more cav on the field, and thought there wasn't enough before?  I don't know. 

Whatever the case, I think reversing (or at least significantly reducing) the range nerf would solve everything.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: PhantomZero on February 01, 2012, 06:06:15 pm
I think your pros/cons of cavalry could use a rewrite:

The good:
1. They can pick their engagements with high mobility.
2. Works well against lone and scattered  or fleeing enemies.
3. A great tool to create distractions.
4. Heavy cavalry can bust up infantry clusters if they forgot to bring spears.

The bad:
1. Unarmored horses unable to attack groups of people.
2. Dead when dismounted, unless it was by another cav or archer.
3. Charging knocks people over, but does little damage unless target unarmored, even with war horses.
4. It is expensive.
5. Map does not always permit effective use of cavalry, meaning you have to go on foot and be gimped for having +5/6 Riding or whatever.
6. Horses are easily killed.
7. Pikes are probably the easiest weapons to use in the game, and the most deadly in skilled hands.

Cav isn't OP, cav is a force multiplier, the reason they get so many kills is because most battles are very spread out and disorganized, the Cav is basically a vulture/kill-stealing class. Basically the Rogue in any other sort of game.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Arkonor on February 01, 2012, 07:00:40 pm
Cav isn't OP, cav is a force multiplier, the reason they get so many kills is because most battles are very spread out and disorganized, the Cav is basically a vulture/kill-stealing class. Basically the Rogue in any other sort of game.
Put a top 100 player on an arabian warhorse with heavy lance vs pretty much anyone and he will win.
Smart cavalry is so dangerous.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Penitent on February 01, 2012, 07:15:08 pm
Put a top 100 player on an arabian warhorse with heavy lance vs pretty much anyone and he will win.
Smart cavalry is so dangerous.

Put the infantry in a tight block with pikes on the back and sides, and I guarantee those elite cav will get 0-1 kills.  It's all about how people choose to play.  I always shout "keep your formation" at the beginning of a round, but it seems like i'm the only one that even tries. :(
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: ThePoopy on February 01, 2012, 09:24:53 pm
cav rather need buff then nerf imo, atleast lancers, but also increased upkeep, the problem is that eny1 can buy a horse after 1-2 days and then run around with it forever.

currently cav feels more like playing a game based on extreeme socialism rather then a meddieval war simulator
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Lizard_man on February 02, 2012, 05:27:41 am
Why do people have such a problem with cavalry, i've been playing as infantry for ages, recently respecced back to cavalry though. Cavalry is not a problem, just be aware of your surroundings and try not to spawn late...
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: HarunYahya on February 02, 2012, 06:02:28 am
I voted cavalary on the poll because it is the strongest class imo.

It doesn't mean that it shouldn't meant to be tho.
I do not like getting slashed by 1 cav , bumped from the other one and couched from the 3th one  in 3 seconds.(Literally made me GTX 3 days ago lol) but c'mon ...
Cavalary meant to be op in battle .
They meant to change the tide of the battle.
I see no problems here.
3 slot pikes made cav a bit more op but it is good imo.Being able to carry a greatsword + pike was really idiotic.Good thing we have lots of dedicated and REALLY OP pikemen(As it should be!) in battles.
I have no idea about cav upkeeps i think it is high already plus i get killed by known cavalary like torben , van damme , kerrigan etc not some "WOO CAV IS OP LETS RIDE AND FUCK THIS SERVER UP" minded nubs.So no cavspam = no need to change anything.

I hate and love cavalary as i hate and love archers .
I know it sounds weird but the realistic feeling of medieval combat should be the priority for me to keep playing and those irritating cav and archers are needed to keep realism.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on February 02, 2012, 02:54:34 pm
I do not like getting slashed by 1 cav , bumped from the other one and couched from the 3th one  in 3 seconds.(Literally made me GTX 3 days ago lol) but c'mon ...

i know what you mean, after i get dehorsed and manage to get up i hate when a two hander guy is spamming at me trying to break shield, the pikeman is behind him waiting for the shield to break and a guy with a maul is closing in to finish me off ;/
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: dodnet on February 02, 2012, 03:22:17 pm
Why do people have such a problem with cavalry, i've been playing as infantry for ages, recently respecced back to cavalry though. Cavalry is not a problem, just be aware of your surroundings and try not to spawn late...

A few cav are no problem but the mass of cav really are. I constantly look around and still get often hit in the back by some cav as its too many to watch them all. I am a cav build but I'm on foot most of the time as cav got really annoying since a few weeks.

The problem with cav is also that you have to kill two: horse and rider.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Thomek on February 02, 2012, 03:25:03 pm
Actually it shouldn't be the pike that take 3 slots, should be the greatswords, as well as the biggest axes.

Would be a nice motive for people to take smaller swords.

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Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Torben on February 02, 2012, 05:33:53 pm
Actually it shouldn't be the pike that take 3 slots, should be the greatswords, as well as the biggest axes.

Would be a nice motive for people to take smaller swords.

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says the ninja,  haha.  paul is right o0
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: MeevarTheMighty on February 04, 2012, 01:55:20 am
A few cav are no problem but the mass of cav really are. I constantly look around and still get often hit in the back by some cav as its too many to watch them all. I am a cav build but I'm on foot most of the time as cav got really annoying since a few weeks.

The problem with cav is also that you have to kill two: horse and rider.

Some people forget that in the medieval era, many armies were all cavalry, others were half. It is unrealistic to mandate that they should only be a small fraction of an army.

If you can't kill the rider without killing the horse, I would strongly suggest you reinstall the game and stop half way.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: TurmoilTom on February 04, 2012, 02:38:56 am
My KDR has taken a nosedive ever since I started playing as cavalry.

True story.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: zagibu on February 04, 2012, 03:06:17 am
I still think they should make horses less maneouverable, give them more hp, and increase bump damage a lot. Also, spears should only rear horses when perfectly in front of horse (< 10° angle to the side or something), or when in a special x-mode (which probably can't be done anymore, because x is already used for many polearms).
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Gurnisson on February 04, 2012, 03:24:13 am
The amount of cav is sickening, I counted 22 on my team and 15-20 on the enemy team on eu 1 today. It was a flat map where the cav of each team decided the outcome of the rounds. Cavalry is not really overpowered, but the amount should be lowered somehow and some tweaks could be nice. Higher speed to knock someone down would be nice and shield not magically stopping projectiles/melee attacks that should normally hit the horse would also be good.

Biggest problem is the actual usage of the brain from most of the people on the server. If you see a lot of cav, do you really want to be standing alone in the open? I saw a lot guys trying to get to some ruins or inside a fence, but too many was taken down outside those places, which made them easy prey at the end of the round.

Didn't get any screenshots covering all the cav since most of them split around at the very start, but there were tons of them. I got a screenshot showing some of them at least
(click to show/hide)

Also, another problem with cav is that any hybrid can dump some points into riding while still be perfectly good soldiers while on foot. I made one of the most stupid builds in history, and would by no mean feel sad if it wouldn't have been any good, but it's still viable since cav only needs 1-2 hits to kill any enemy.

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Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 04, 2012, 03:27:59 am
Stop nerfing shit, what ever the end decision, and for the love of god fix a baseline and buff from there. Any more nerfs and it will take forever to murder someone properly... With Anything...

I voted Cav...
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: MeevarTheMighty on February 04, 2012, 04:59:00 am
The amount of cav is sickening, I counted 22 on my team and 15-20 on the enemy team on eu 1 today. It was a flat map where the cav of each team decided the outcome of the rounds. Cavalry is not really overpowered, but the amount should be lowered somehow and some tweaks could be nice. Higher speed to knock someone down would be nice and shield not magically stopping projectiles/melee attacks that should normally hit the horse would also be good.

Biggest problem is the actual usage of the brain from most of the people on the server. If you see a lot of cav, do you really want to be standing alone in the open? I saw a lot guys trying to get to some ruins or inside a fence, but too many was taken down outside those places, which made them easy prey at the end of the round.

Didn't get any screenshots covering all the cav since most of them split around at the very start, but there were tons of them. I got a screenshot showing some of them at least
(click to show/hide)

Also, another problem with cav is that any hybrid can dump some points into riding while still be perfectly good soldiers while on foot. I made one of the most stupid builds in history, and would by no mean feel sad if it wouldn't have been any good, but it's still viable since cav only needs 1-2 hits to kill any enemy.

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

This isn't CoD or Street Fighter, it features cavalry and irl, they were numerous. Both major sides during the crusades had a number of cavalry comparable to that of infantry. There are countless medieval battles in which at least one side featured only cavalry, even discounting those involving Asiatic cavalry-only civilisations like the Mongols, Tartars, Alans etc.

If you feel sick to see cavalry, perhaps you're not cut out to play a medieval battle simulator. That's cool, there's always c-rpg duels. :P
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: dodnet on February 04, 2012, 10:14:52 am
Some people forget that in the medieval era, many armies were all cavalry, others were half. It is unrealistic to mandate that they should only be a small fraction of an army.

Some ppl forget that this game isn't about one team rolling over the other constantly without any losses. There has to be some kind of balance to be fun for all. Also in real battles there were armies of hundreds and thousands of soldiers were the battles here are around 120 ppl max. And the numbers between the enemy parties were often different. So one side might have 50k cavalry were the other consists of 100k infantry. That might be balanced but as teams in cRPG are mostly with the same amount of ppl it breaks balance.

If you can't kill the rider without killing the horse, I would strongly suggest you reinstall the game and stop half way.

If you use a Light Lance on foot like I do (yes, may be stupid but I like it   8-)) its hard to kill a rider heading for you with a couched lance or a 1h and shield without downing the horse first.

I think cav itself isn't really OP (at least it has to be a bit OP as it is cav!), just the amount of cav is a problem.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Arkonor on February 04, 2012, 11:03:51 am
I think cav itself isn't really OP (at least it has to be a bit OP as it is cav!), just the amount of cav is a problem.

I do think the game should be balanced so same amount of upkeep is balanced.

It is fine that people can empty their gold storage slowly by playing heavy cavalry with heavy armor and be stronger then people spending less.
But if you think about the difference between being on foot or on a Rouncey for example it is huge with the right weapon and skill.

What I am trying to say here is that imagine a graph for each 3 class. Where you would put upkeep cost on the X and K/D ratio on the Y.
The graphs wouldn't look anything alike.

Infantry graph would go fast up but once you reach about 10k it will go really slowly up and probably even down once you are forced to wear heavy armor to make that upkeep.

Archers graph would set the power pretty much all around the same amount of upkeep. Since they have no real options anymore what to pick. Play like this or don't play an archer.

Cavalry on the other hand would always go up with higher upkeep and the peak would be higher then the other two for sure. Which is fine if the game makes the neutral zone be balanced.

In short : The solution to balance is to make every classes peak at the 0-50000 gold upkeep zone to be the same. Everything higher then that can't be supported without giving something up (Loom points or negative on your vault). Best would obviously be to make it actually valuable for all the classes to be near the upkeep zone so we see fewer players get huge vaults.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Leshma on February 04, 2012, 11:58:18 am
This isn't CoD or Street Fighter, it features cavalry and irl, they were numerous. Both major sides during the crusades had a number of cavalry comparable to that of infantry. There are countless medieval battles in which at least one side featured only cavalry, even discounting those involving Asiatic cavalry-only civilisations like the Mongols, Tartars, Alans etc.

If you feel sick to see cavalry, perhaps you're not cut out to play a medieval battle simulator. That's cool, there's always c-rpg duels. :P

Orly?

I wonder why we don't have the same amount of people using public transportation and those who own Ferrari's...
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: dodnet on February 04, 2012, 12:14:48 pm
I do think the game should be balanced so same amount of upkeep is balanced.

So lowering cav upkeep solves the problem? RLY? It would increase usage of cav even more.  :shock:

But maybe I just misunderstood what you wanted to say...
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Gurnisson on February 04, 2012, 12:17:21 pm
This isn't CoD or Street Fighter, it features cavalry and irl, they were numerous. Both major sides during the crusades had a number of cavalry comparable to that of infantry. There are countless medieval battles in which at least one side featured only cavalry, even discounting those involving Asiatic cavalry-only civilisations like the Mongols, Tartars, Alans etc.

If you feel sick to see cavalry, perhaps you're not cut out to play a medieval battle simulator. That's cool, there's always c-rpg duels. :P

Scurry off back to the realism board please. :wink:
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Arkonor on February 04, 2012, 12:23:53 pm
So lowering cav upkeep solves the problem? RLY? It would increase usage of cav even more.  :shock:

But maybe I just misunderstood what you wanted to say...

Yeah you misunderstood it. Is saying the balance(strength) of the classes should be balanced around how much they pay.

So a poor guy that gets an equus africanus asinus and finds some broken piece of a tree isn't more effective then someone that actually owns a sword.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: dodnet on February 04, 2012, 12:24:58 pm
This isn't CoD or Street Fighter, it features cavalry and irl, they were numerous. Both major sides during the crusades had a number of cavalry comparable to that of infantry.

Sure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arsuf
20,000 men: 14,000 infantry, 4,000 knights, 2,000 turcopoles
vs
20,000 men, mostly mounted

And I'm sure that isn't the only battle with similar stats. I just didn't found any other resources with strengths.

If someone knows a site with some army sizes, plz post  :)
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Arrowblood on February 04, 2012, 12:42:37 pm
who the hell voted for ranged? :shock:
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: EyeBeat on February 04, 2012, 02:17:22 pm
Been waiting for a cav nerf for some time.

There is no skill involved.

The cav players in my clan even admitted it.

Please nerf it.  Thanks.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: _Tak_ on February 04, 2012, 03:30:46 pm
Cav does require skill, nor you can bump into pikes and get instandl 1 hit kill .If cav nerf, then archery will probably get nerf, then polearm get nerf, everything nerf, happy?
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Overdriven on February 04, 2012, 03:31:22 pm
Fix ranged damage to horses.

Solved.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Arkonor on February 04, 2012, 03:34:49 pm
Fix ranged damage to horses.

Solved.
I'm somehow guessing they can't else they probably wouldn't have messed with them at the same time.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Overdriven on February 04, 2012, 03:39:32 pm
I'm somehow guessing they can't else they probably wouldn't have messed with them at the same time.

Then fixed ranged damage overall.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Arkonor on February 04, 2012, 03:47:19 pm
Then fixed ranged damage overall.

So increase ranged body damage by 20% of what it used to.
Decrease lance damage by 20% to balance the risk/reward element?

Though I would like seeing lance "stabs" not do over 50 damage to a medium armored infantry if they are not even running at max speed on their mount.
Making couch the single hit killer and the stab 2 hit killer?
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Leshma on February 04, 2012, 04:27:10 pm
Then fixed ranged damage overall.

Range damage is fine. It's even easier for skilled players to get kills.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Overdriven on February 04, 2012, 04:37:55 pm
Range damage is fine. It's even easier for skilled players to get kills.

Not against horses it isn't.

Nerfing cav again would just be dumb. Crpg is already becoming a constant circle of nerfs. No need to keep that circle going.

But then I don't really see any other solution to fixing the amount of cav there is.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 04, 2012, 07:03:09 pm
But then I don't really see any other solution to fixing the amount of cav there is.

I have a crazy idea...

How about making the Cav prerequisites make sense again? Spread them out a bit? Make it so not every single heavy cav is 5? Make it where levels in Riding make a real difference like before...
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: gazda on February 04, 2012, 07:21:46 pm
you cant talk about cavalry, you need to be more specific, you need to seperate heavy cavalry form light cavalry, cause differences between those are huge.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 04, 2012, 07:30:14 pm
Currently it is a heavy cav spam that is the problem on NA servers imo.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: gazda on February 04, 2012, 08:04:03 pm
i bet they all have plated charges an black armours  :lol:
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Herkkutatti on February 04, 2012, 08:05:13 pm
Cav is fine just remove bump damage or make it do less damage
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: gazda on February 04, 2012, 08:24:30 pm
cavalry is tricky,

Cavalry is useless if the main infantry body is aware of them, if not they will dominate the battlefield
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: Uumdi on February 04, 2012, 08:35:50 pm
Yeah, I vote revert ranged damage to horses.  Cav lies in catching people off guard, and I'm getting away with 2 too many arrows stuck in an arabian warhorse haha.
Title: Re: The current problems with cavalry (Poll)
Post by: dodnet on February 04, 2012, 10:31:29 pm
you cant talk about cavalry, you need to be more specific, you need to seperate heavy cavalry form light cavalry, cause differences between those are huge.

There isn't much heavy cav on EU servers luckily, still to much medium/light cav.