cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Turboflex on January 25, 2012, 08:43:35 pm

Title: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Turboflex on January 25, 2012, 08:43:35 pm
I didn't play CRPG for a few weeks and now came back to this and I gotta say siege is a lot better now with no ladders. I dunno about EU siege, but NA siege where population has trouble getting above 60 it's really balanced things better, it was almost impossible before to defend any map without a stacked team, was just way to easy to get ladders up lightly defended sides. Thanks so much, siege is fun again, please don't bring them back.
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Nessaj on January 25, 2012, 10:54:41 pm
Agreed.

Haven't had too much time to actually play but when I did I enjoyed Siege a lot more, both as an attacker and defender.
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: karasu on January 25, 2012, 11:00:14 pm
Yep, now in Siege you really need to coordinate efforts with your team to accomplish victory.

The only con atm in siege imho is simply the team hitting, sometimes could be avoided.

But then again, I'd rather be team killed, than getting spawn 1 hit by 5498 cav players, and having to hide the whole round to avoid getting 1hit in the back.  :wink:

Siege ftw!


PS: Give some more Siege admins ch0dz please... I can point you some names if needed.
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Stabby_Dave on January 25, 2012, 11:39:15 pm

PS: Give some more Siege admins ch0dz please... I can point you some names if needed.

Why dont you volunteer your services?  :twisted:
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Malaclypse on January 25, 2012, 11:41:57 pm
Yeah, lack of ladders is great- on most maps. Some maps appear to have been designed with ladders in mind. One way to flag via a long, cumbersome path, stuff like that. The only thing I'd ask for now, is more NA admins who actually play siege!
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Sniger on January 25, 2012, 11:46:47 pm
problem is just that its not everyone whos on the same TS/other voice.

the change only benefit the clans.

randoms isnt able to co-ordinate in the same manner.

no ladders on siege: iPukeĀ® :)

i should add that since the change i havent really played siege, but id suggest a limit/team. i know this aint gonna happen so i will continue not to play siege :p

besides, i think the map cycle on siege is made back when ladders was allowed? in my POV theres a 2-4 maps that needs to be taken out or at least looked at.

/snig
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Turboflex on January 26, 2012, 01:18:50 am
problem is just that its not everyone whos on the same TS/other voice.

the change only benefit the clans.

randoms isnt able to co-ordinate in the same manner.

no ladders on siege: iPukeĀ® :)

i should add that since the change i havent really played siege, but id suggest a limit/team. i know this aint gonna happen so i will continue not to play siege :p

besides, i think the map cycle on siege is made back when ladders was allowed? in my POV theres a 2-4 maps that needs to be taken out or at least looked at.

/snig

So you don't actually play siege, but have an opinion? Thanks
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Fips on January 26, 2012, 01:33:57 am
The way we (HRE) defend castles didnt changed at all. Just defending the flag (And on some maps the gatehouse) is still the most effective way.

But attacking really sucks on some maps. If there are only 2 ways to get to the flag it's just mindless rushing towards one of them and killing.


I don't mind if siege would stay without ladders...but still, it's called SIEGE, why the hell should it not have ladders?!
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Turboflex on January 26, 2012, 01:47:21 am
Well now maps can be balanced around existing routes, not infinite possible ladder routes. or are you really gonna argue realism here?
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Fips on January 26, 2012, 02:21:53 am
Well now maps can be balanced around existing routes, not infinite possible ladder routes. or are you really gonna argue realism here?

Like i said, i don't mind that there are no more ladders, i can still farm x5 with my clanmates. But i got one castle in mind with only one fucking way to the flag and that is totally not how a siege is supposed to be, no matter how balanced it might be (Although it's not. Talking about one of the new sarranid castles in the desert, don't know the name).

And siege was balanced before, too.



JUST FIX THE GODDAMN PAPERDOOR-BUG!
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: IG_Saint on January 26, 2012, 02:30:53 am
Personally I find siege much more boring now. I never liked the native style meatgrinders where you don't have a choice but to climb that ladder into the arms of 20 waiting defenders. I also don't understand the bitching about ladders unbalancing maps, at least from european players. There were only a couple of castles that were really unbalanced with ladders. Most just had a couple of good spots for ladder placement, something that you can easily defend against if you know what you're doing.
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Tears of Destiny on January 26, 2012, 02:37:57 am
We need an overhaul of the maps used (at least on NA), and encourage mapmakers to make castles with dynamic possibilities. Currently too many of the maps are Native Singleplayer ones that are way too biased for one side or another. What is "challenging" in singleplayer is irritating in multi.
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Mala on January 26, 2012, 03:14:35 am
Tactics have not changed alot. Now it is even more camping and a way more predictable. In other words still boring without ladders.
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: rustyspoon on January 26, 2012, 04:09:49 am
Personally I like it better without ladders. Getting people on siege to do anything is a lot like herding cats. Hell, it's hard enough to get people to defend the flag let alone get them to respond to ladders dynamically placed at any number of points. With only a few points of entry it makes for a much more interesting game in my opinion.

However, we do need more maps. What happened to all the ATS siege maps? There were a lot of broken ones in that rotation but there were also a lot of good ones too. Perhaps we could load more of those in?
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: OzyTheSage on January 26, 2012, 04:21:39 am
I think what Siege really needs is multiple capture points, so it's more of a progression through the map rather than a race to the flag in the center/back of the castle. Theoretically defenders can just ignore everything in the map and stay near the flag and do better than if they were to actually try to use the walls and such. It's generally more effective, leaving the attackers with a relatively boring trek assuming there aren't people still herpy derpy on the walls.

So far the closest I've seen to what I'm looking for are maps with several gates leading straight for the flag, but you have to fight to get to each of the controls, so there's sort of a progression in that sense, and a greater incentive to protect the gate controls/walls rather than the flag.

Was this post relevant to ladders? A little, I suppose, just invisibly. >=o
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Vrael on January 26, 2012, 04:33:28 pm
Take 7 the Grey and put them in top of a ladder. Done.
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Phew on January 26, 2012, 06:35:01 pm
Agreed, siege is much more balanced now without ladders. HOWEVER, the prevalence of Mauls is making certain maps impossible for attackers. When there are only 2-3 ladders, the defenders only need 2 maulers on top of each ladder to assure victory.

Mauls are probably perfectly balanced for Battle, but they are over the top on Siege now.
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Jacko on January 26, 2012, 09:52:12 pm
Feedback is good, whine is not. Go to the scene section and make a post about it. Explain what's wrong and preferably a solution, and it will probably get fixed.
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Turboflex on January 26, 2012, 09:55:38 pm
Agreed, siege is much more balanced now without ladders. HOWEVER, the prevalence of Mauls is making certain maps impossible for attackers. When there are only 2-3 ladders, the defenders only need 2 maulers on top of each ladder to assure victory.

Mauls are probably perfectly balanced for Battle, but they are over the top on Siege now.

Do people even use mauls in battle? They are pretty awful 1v1 with their comedy speed/range, they are just gimmick weapons for chokepoints. If anything they should be exclusively balanced around siege.
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Tears of Destiny on January 26, 2012, 10:54:15 pm
Do people even use mauls in battle?
Yes, all the time on NA since certain clans use spiffy teamwork to make it viable, and even the plebs are catching on.
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on January 26, 2012, 11:00:40 pm
I really like siege now without the constant ladderspam. Now people have to play together :)


True some maps are unbalanced and need some rework to be done, but that's what we have Jacko for :D
Give him feedback (which map and what you mean exactly) and he will probably check it.


But most of the "unbalance" comes from people mindlessly rushing towards enemies instead of opening/defending gates etc^^
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Mala on February 01, 2012, 09:16:35 pm
For the more balanced thing, this is more some kind of placebo effect.

As i have made the statistics for the upkeep there was an attacker/defender win rate of 50/50 and 55/45 out of 100 rounds.

Now i have logged 200 rounds without ladders. In the end it was 111 wins for the attacker and 89 wins for the defender.
To be more precise:
(click to show/hide)

No major difference to the winning rate with ladders, only my excitety-meter has changed from  :P to  :|  .
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Turboflex on February 01, 2012, 10:18:53 pm
What was the server population where you recorded that data?

With 80+ people on siege defenders were much better able to hold off ladderspam on a lot of maps. With 40 it was not so hot.

We all know the boring maps, the ones that are pointlessly large, have only single routes to flag, no timed gates (just big ones you gotta spend 2 mins hacking through).
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 02, 2012, 12:13:09 am
Personally I find siege much more boring now. I never liked the native style meatgrinders where you don't have a choice but to climb that ladder into the arms of 20 waiting defenders. I also don't understand the bitching about ladders unbalancing maps, at least from european players. There were only a couple of castles that were really unbalanced with ladders. Most just had a couple of good spots for ladder placement, something that you can easily defend against if you know what you're doing.
This was not my experience; I'd say on about half the maps the attackers would win 3-0. There was a kind of balance in that half the time you were on the attacking team...
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: HarunYahya on February 02, 2012, 04:45:41 am
Talking about EU servers:

I agree it is more balanced but is it more fun ?
I don't think so.
Less possibilities = Less fun.

Ladders didn't make siege unbalanced , that was retarded defenders which made it unbalanced.
If you see a guy carrying a HUGE ladder , you should kill him simple as that.
Still lots of noobs fighting on walls while enemy takes flag ...
Lots of teamhits etc...
But i understand because siege is more newbie friendly then battle mode.
More newbies = more fails
I can live with that but i kinda sorta want ladders back .
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: t1337Dude on February 02, 2012, 09:58:52 pm
I think ladders should be taken out of battle, but I wish they were left in siege. I loved the used of ladders. Added a lot more variety to matches.  I already miss them a bunch.
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: MR_FISTA on February 02, 2012, 10:34:38 pm
much less fun without ladders in siege
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Harafat on February 02, 2012, 10:57:05 pm
Well this is not a more fun/less fun easy and open shot case.

Personally i liked ladders in siege. However, after a while we were that trained in putting em up that on a lot of castles we could bypass nearly half the defence and cap the flag in like under a minute. I can understand that this was frustrating for some people, however, 1)as defender you should know the weak spots in your defence 2)you could allways join HRE and enjoy our awesome laddering.
I can accept that ladders are gone, and that we now have to assault the castles the way they are ment to be assaulted. BUT some siege maps are rly built in a retarded way that makes it impossible to cap the flag without ladders. My favourite in this one is the castle with the massive, useless courtyard (nobody ever walks there) with a keep with a double spiralling set of stairs. Without ladders it takes you 1.30 mins of walking be4 you can even start killing people. Any1 with some siege experience knows that this is plainly retarded. I can understand that the map maker is a amateur-architect IRL and that he spontaneously jizzed in his pants by the sight of his Escher-like double stairwell, but maps like this make experienced players on attackers side just GTX, hence imbalancing the further course of the round even more.

If you want to keep siege ladder free, then the maps that are nearly uncappable without them should be removed from rotation.
Title: Re: Siege is much better now w/o ladders - thanks devs
Post by: Herkkutatti on February 02, 2012, 10:58:54 pm
Devs should add couple of ladders to some of the maps.