cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: a_bear_irl on January 23, 2012, 11:37:07 pm
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Heavy Cav has needed a nerf for a while. On NA at least, the 5 riding armored horses are very common.
The main problem with heavy cav is that they're nearly unkillable as melee, catas for instance can get stopped in the middle of a clump of melee and ride off multiple times (this is also thanks to the ridiculous forcefield on the elite cav shield).
In my opinion the heavy horses should be mostly immune to ranged, arbs or throwing lances should still take them down but your standard archer scrub with a hornbow shouldn't be able to do much to them - but if they get stopped in melee they should die. I think this is the ideal balance because it gives people a good reason to ride them (avoid being dehorsed by ranged), but you still need to be careful to do well.
Currently though it takes me, a melee with 8 ps and a danish probably 10+ hits to kill a cata, and if the rider is looking to the side and holding up an elite cav shield even overheads from directly behind get blocked.
I think most players will agree with this, the main problem is how to implement it. The horses still need to be tough enough to give them the desired archer immunity, but also need to be killable by melee players. badplayer i think suggested a multiplier, maybe horse HP could be increased and armor decreased (since cut is much more prevalent among melee players, pierce more common among ranged)
I wouldn't even really call this a nerf, the toughness vs melee has been out of control for a long time and even heavy cav players agree.
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I would be fine with heavy cav being tough to kill with arrows if there was some way for melee to beat them up easier. I kinda wish there was a way to buff some weapons to have "bonus against Cav."
Otherwise though, bowmen do need to be able to take them out rather well as currently we need a predator.
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more you play, more unbalanced your opponent become, ye?
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For 3k+ upkeep per tick, i find it kind of fair that my cata is barely worth the money , compared to a champion light horse."Balance" it not, thanks.
Ranged will most probably be un-nerfed imo, that should solve the increased anti-cav moaning.
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Ranged will most probably be un-nerfed imo, that should solve the increased anti-cav moaning.
cmp says otherwise. "tweaks" are in the future.
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Also forgot to mention how easy it is to dehorse any heavy cav via couch lancing .1-2 couched lances and even a plated charger will go down.
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Lower the resistance they have on blunt damage if it's even possible so they remain great moving tanks since most people use cut and archers have cut or pierce and we will maybe see more diversity on the maps.
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On NA you are considered a disgrace if you let your Cav get couched :lol: Though I suppose if a light Cav is hunting a heavy to couch it then you might have a chance against equal skilled players.
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On NA you are considered a disgrace if you let your Cav get couched :lol: Though I suppose if a light Cav is hunting a heavy to couch it then you might have a chance against equal skilled players.
Never had problems dehorsing heavy cav with my champ. destrier, the only heavy EU cav that managed to more or less avoid it was Reyiz.
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Never had problems dehorsing heavy cav with my champ. destrier, the only heavy EU cav that managed to more or less avoid it was Reyiz.
Reyiz is very good though.
Only annoying part with cav is the wonky forcefield of the shield of the rider. The amount of times I've stabbed, hacked or shot at the horse for the shield to magically suck it up is continuously growing, and it's very frustrating to say the least. When you hit the horse, you should hit the horse, not get your attack magically sucked up by the shield of the rider.
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Reyiz is very good though.
Only annoying part with cav is the wonky forcefield of the shield of the rider. The amount of times I've stabbed, hacked or shot at the horse for the shield to magically suck it up is continuously growing, and it's very frustrating to say the least. When you hit the horse, you should hit the horse, not get your attack magically sucked up by the shield of the rider.
QFT
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"It should be easier for melee to kill"
Where have I heard this line before....oh yeah! Every single nerf that has happened to cav and ranged since the dawn of crpg!!
Forget it. Cav is fine in all its incarnations. Cataphracts are indeed very tough horses, but the upkeep alone makes it balanced.
Wants a melee weapon that has bonus against cav? How about pikes, longspears, and pretty much anything that's long and pointy. :)
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In my opinion the heavy horses should be mostly immune to ranged, arbs or throwing lances should still take them down but your standard archer scrub with a hornbow shouldn't be able to do much to them
Having such a thing would be awesome for everything
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For 3k+ upkeep per tick, i find it kind of fair that my cata is barely worth the money , compared to a champion light horse."Balance" it not, thanks.
Balancing based on upkeep is bullshit and you know it. There are far too many of us who don't give a damn about upkeep costs.
Also, you usually sit on x5 most of the time...
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Balancing based on upkeep is bullshit and you know it.
No , i don't . Otherwise you'd see me using my champion cata +heavy armor on every map.
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I used to use a Champion Cataphract for quite a while and I have to say it's very OP, I could get stopped by long spears 3-4 times and my horse would survive even while other melee slash at it from the sides. I don't think upkeep balances it either because if you ride a horse like that you have a good chance of almost always having x5, I always broke even riding a Cataphract.
As Bear says I think armoured horses should take alot of ranged damage but still take very few melee hits so you have to be careful and are punished for being reckless.
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I used to use a Champion Cataphract for quite a while and I have to say it's very OP, I could get stopped by long spears 3-4 times and my horse would survive even while other melee slash at it from the sides. I don't think upkeep balances it either because if you ride a horse like that you have a good chance of almost always having x5, I always broke even riding a Cataphract.
As Bear says I think armoured horses should take alot of ranged damage but still take very few melee hits so you have to be careful and are punished for being reckless.
If you are really reckless with a heavy horse, getting stopped by a polearm once can easily get you killed thanks to heavy horses having crap acceleration speed.
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Currently though it takes me, a melee with 8 ps and a danish probably 10+ hits to kill a cata,
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It depends on what part of the horse you hit. With 2 well placed hits do the head of the horse you should be able to kill a cata. It is much easier to kill the rider. Why are some players trying desperately to kill the Heavy horse.You are even able to kill a well armored Rider(IF6) with an one handed weapon with only one hit.(Of course, cav at full speed).
Heavy cav have pros and cons:
+ hp & armor (allows you also to face 2h and polearm inf frontally, without fearing to get dehorsed by one hit)
+ bumpdamage
- slow (easy target for ranged and light cav)
- maneuver (after the lance angle nerf this has become more important for lancers)
- high upkeep
PS: I am also using a Cata, but I cant use it all the time.(upkeep) Most of the time I play Siege naked with a Staff, to gain some gold in order to play as Heavy cav.
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I am a light cav, so no bias here. Imo horses are fine, the shield forcefields however make them the tanks they are, also making the rider immune to many attacks.
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The shield force-field is obnoxious and should be fixed at some point in the future.
If SOMETHING else HAD to be altered though, I'd suggest increasing the armor of the heavy horses, and decreasing their Hitpoints, to keep them less vulnerable to light ranged fire and light melee attacks, but more vulnerable to heavy ranged and heavy melee attacks.
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You can easily get away with your horse because all inf reacts the same :
When cav gets stopped, the angry mob kill whore infantry will always jump and do an overhead on the rider.
non noob cav will just hold upblock > win
how infantry should react : attack the horse with side swings, then when the rider is on the ground overhead him
sadly enough the first case is what happens 95% of the time, and i admit i sometimes also get carried away by my bloodthirst and apply the first case scenario.
attack the horse, unlike it's rider, it cant block...
play smart
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overhead is the only real option (besides backing up and stabbing) when you're in the mob surrounding a stopped horse, no room to sideswing
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It depends on what part of the horse you hit. With 2 well placed hits do the head of the horse you should be able to kill a cata. It is much easier to kill the rider. Why are some players trying desperately to kill the Heavy horse.You are even able to kill a well armored Rider(IF6) with an one handed weapon with only one hit.(Of course, cav at full speed).
Heavy cav have pros and cons:
+ hp & armor (allows you also to face 2h and polearm inf frontally, without fearing to get dehorsed by one hit)
+ bumpdamage
- slow (easy target for ranged and light cav)
- maneuver (after the lance angle nerf this has become more important for lancers)
- high upkeep
PS: I am also using a Cata, but I cant use it all the time.(upkeep) Most of the time I play Siege naked with a Staff, to gain some gold in order to play as Heavy cav.
you might not be able to afford to ride around on a cata for very long but most "veteran" cav players can, selling even one loom point would set you up for probably 6+ months. also decent light cav is rare and with the recent ranged nerf only the more powerful ranged weapons can present much of a threat to heavy cav horses.
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you might not be able to afford to ride around on a cata for very long but most "veteran" cav players can, selling even one loom point would set you up for probably 6+ months. also decent light cav is rare
/Quit topic and never come back
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on NA there's huey newton and uhhhhhhh
cyranule? who doesnt even play anymore?
edit: and as your own tournament showed, the cav skill levels on NA are so much higher they beat you on EU servers
edit2: i run around with about 50k in gear cost and make money, you could do a large warhorse+decent armor+heavylance/sidearm for about 65
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Most of the time I play Siege naked with a Staff, to gain some gold in order to play as Heavy cav.
Siege is waste of time. Change your banner to ninja, enter rageball server, check is khorin online, if he is then profit :D
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sadly yes, when you'v got only the overhead option, it's when you are surrounded by angry team mates and in most cases the damage inflicted to the horse will be inferior to the damage dealt in between teamates (horsehate can make most player enter in berserk mode)
I generally try to stay out of the horde
but if there isnt any, or little team mates around, side swing!
heavy cav isnt a eu problem, they are well regulated by light cav and no heavy horse rider comes to my mind
You come to post that heavy horses are op, then proceed to rule out all eu from the conversation cuz USA won the cav tournement?
(i dont make money with 50k equipment)
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Shield forcefield is a bigger problem than heavy cav stats.
Or 2h cav is OP.
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on NA there's huey newton and uhhhhhhh
cyranule? who doesnt even play anymore?
edit: and as your own tournament showed, the cav skill levels on NA are so much higher they beat you on EU servers
edit2: i run around with about 50k in gear cost and make money, you could do a large warhorse+decent armor+heavylance/sidearm for about 65
Tommyhu (who's been playing more now) and Reinhardt are some kick ass light cavalry. I'm usually hit or miss, but I consider myself to be pretty good light cavalry when I'm playing well.
I added it up and my normal gear costs 49k gold and I lose about 20-30k gold over a gen.
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Tommyhu (who's been playing more now) and Reinhardt are some kick ass light cavalry. I'm usually hit or miss, but I consider myself to be pretty good light cavalry when I'm playing well.
I added it up and my normal gear costs 49k gold and I lose about 20-30k gold over a gen.
Most of the awesome EU cav quit now or barely play anymore. TomMmy and Oberyn barely play and theyre 2 of the best. Dede is one of the best atm I think.
On the topic of OP heavy cav. Yes, heavy horses are very survivable against melee and even more so against ranged now BUT they do cost a shit load to upkeep so while we do need balance for heavy cav I dont think that should necessarily mean a nerf. If there is a nerf, for example a hp/armour nerf, then upkeep should also be lowered a little.
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Most of the awesome EU cav quit now or barely play anymore. TomMmy and Oberyn barely play and theyre 2 of the best. Dede is one of the best atm I think.
I rarely see Leed too, and he's probably the best because of his amazing teamplay coupled with his skills. Torben is probably the best active cavalry player, though Kerrigan is also very good.
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Tommyhu (who's been playing more now) and Reinhardt are some kick ass light cavalry. I'm usually hit or miss, but I consider myself to be pretty good light cavalry when I'm playing well.
I added it up and my normal gear costs 49k gold and I lose about 20-30k gold over a gen.
sure there's some, but overall most of the cav you see at the top of the board are on armored horses and there aren't nearly enough good light cav to check them.
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I rarely see Leed too, and he's probably the best because of his amazing teamplay coupled with his skills. Torben is probably the best active cavalry player, though Kerrigan is also very good.
How could I forget Torben :P
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Also, on eu 1 atm and basically 1 in 3 people have a spear or pike of some kind and all the top players are 2 handers so cav is not always on top.
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/Quit topic and never come back
Well it just depends on how much you win and what gear you are using, In my past 4-5 Gens of only being on a Cataphract Horse in Cavalry Robes/Heraldic Mail the most I lost was 20k gold in a gen and I gained a bit of gold in one of them. If you are using alot heavier armour I guess you would lose gold but it's really not needed so long as you use a shield and just let the horse take the hits.
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An ideal nerf in my eyes would be nerfing the hell out of shield skill when on horseback. What these heavy cav players do is get themselves into one terrible situation after another that should lead to their death, but if they hold right click down and waggle their character around them AND their horse become impervious to melee attacks, except maybe the horse's head at a perfect angle. Above, below, and wrapped around the sides of the shield, is a gigantic and often perplexing forcefield that absolutely has to go.
If the shield only blocked directly in front of the rider, I guarantee heavy cav users will find themselves taking way more damage each round, leading to earlier dismounts, and less of the HOLY SHIT HORDE OF CAV factor that ruins the servers, all round every round.
This would have the nice benefit of further empowering melee classes to pick up the slack that ranged leaves, making everyone (except ranged) happier, which is how it should be.
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Ok, I agree that the shield force-fields could use a fix because this is really kind of messed up and weird. But stop nerfing things!
I mean, forget Cataphracts..have any of you tried to kill a Plated Charger? It can be done, but to do it consistently you need teamwork and patience. So don't nerf the horse stats...just buff teamwork and patience. :wink:
At the same time, the point of taking a heavy horse is that it is a lot tougher and can run into a group of inf and have a chance of riding out alive. That is their purpose...shock troops, or chargers (hence the name)....as opposed to picking on stragglers and peasants only.
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have any of you tried to kill a Plated Charger? It can be done, but to do it consistently you need teamwork and patience. So don't nerf the horse stats...just buff teamwork and patience. :wink:
And remove shield forcefield on horseback
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And remove shield forcefield on horseback
Yes yes, that was the 1st thing I mentioned. I think the problem is that while on foot the shield protects player model including the legs, and this by extension protects a large part of the horse when the shielder is riding. This is true even for very small shields. I wonder if its possible to make the character's legs vulnerable while on horseback holding a shield. This would solve it.
Has anyone ever used a buckler on horseback? I bet this would look really funny. :)
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...In my past 4-5 Gens of only being on a Cataphract Horse in Cavalry Robes/Heraldic Mail the most I lost was 20k gold in a gen and I gained a bit of gold in one of them. If you are using alot heavier armour I guess you would lose gold but it's really not needed so long as you use a shield and just let the horse take the hits.
A few days ago I lost about 60k in one day. I'd be a millionaire if I did not use the cata up now. :)
And remove shield forcefield on horseback
I wonder if the size of the protecting area is based on shieldskill. With 2 skillpoints I find it not that OP.
Most cav use shield for an other reason (ranged).
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Shield forcefield? Ok fix it, then fix lance block forcefield for light lancer cav. When lance block protect a horse legs, then fix all forcefields and disable shield skill forcefield.
A few days ago I lost about 60k in one day. I'd be a millionair...
+100500
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.del
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An ideal nerf in my eyes would be nerfing the hell out of shield skill when on horseback. What these heavy cav players do is get themselves into one terrible situation after another that should lead to their death, but if they hold right click down and waggle their character around them AND their horse become impervious to melee attacks, except maybe the horse's head at a perfect angle. Above, below, and wrapped around the sides of the shield, is a gigantic and often perplexing forcefield that absolutely has to go.
If the shield only blocked directly in front of the rider, I guarantee heavy cav users will find themselves taking way more damage each round, leading to earlier dismounts, and less of the HOLY SHIT HORDE OF CAV factor that ruins the servers, all round every round.
This would have the nice benefit of further empowering melee classes to pick up the slack that ranged leaves, making everyone (except ranged) happier, which is how it should be.
I'd have to agree. I think the force-field effect is even worse (larger) when people are manually blocking from horse back than with a shield. It seems like a down block will block half way down the horses body. Half the time when I'm aimed as low as I can on a thrust it still gets blocked (and blocks the horse) from a manual block.
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I've always considered heavy cav as being allowed to make mistakes:
-get slashed by people
-get shot
as well as have major charge damage/disruptive abilities.
But because that heavy cav can charge into polearms, get reared, and often SURVIVE AND RIDE AWAY because of shield forcefield, something needs to be done. Very frustrating when I jab at a reared horse's head and instead hit the shield through the horse's neck. Same with archery, a lot of the time my horse headshots from angles would peg the shield somehow.
Being reared is the kind of mistake that should leave any cav dead.
Otherwise, it seems balanced based on the repair costs, which really hurt after a few hours.
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JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They are not "nearly unkillable". Just hit them with a fucking weapon.
I've said it way to many times, and I'm going to say it again.
If you want to know how to fight a class, play that class. Once you've played cav you know how to move and how to kill them FULL STOP THE END GET OVER IT!
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this is my first cav gen and imo the majority of people just dont know how to fight cav
i never feared cav unless it was a skilled player like roh and bad(na players theres more of course who are skilled at cav just examples)
even when i was 1h long espada build id just jump stab their bitch asses of there horses with hardly any problems
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As a part time cav im (suprisingly for the first time ever) going to have to agree with Bear on this. Just going from a destrier to a cata is a huge difference and it makes you play cav a bit differently. You can afford to be a little careless when you aren't afraid of dying if you go into the melee ball. On my cata i will charge a group of aware meleers and can usualy come out alive. On a destrier or anything lighter its suicide. As an armored horse really the only thing you need to do to avoid pikers is just slow down, they do almost no damage to you if they don't have the speed bonus of you charging them.
The point about the shield bubble is valid as well. I cant count the number times ive hit a horse no where near the rider, yet the THUMP of a shield hit sounds. Or the reverse for me on the horse, my shield is aimed directly at the arrow or swing and it thwacks me. It is buggy as hell and needs to be looked at.
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As a long spear user, I continually hit the cavs shield even though I'm behind them and they are facing away from me (jump stabbing). It takes 5-6 stabs to kill a Cata including the first one being a full on charge, and only 3 for the plate dude on top. I've actually started using a long hafted spiked mace and jump swinging at them. 50% of the time I one shot the rider, 25% he one shots me, 25% I just get uselessly bumped for 1/5 my health.
It works better because at least that way they don't avoid me as much.
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I agree with the shield forcefield on cav, that thing can be crazy.
But is the solution really to nerf heavy cav outside of that? Right now ranged has been nerfed into the ground, and now the next big melee threat - heavy cav - is being asked for a nerf?
Melee has always been completely viable and effective. Being melee, whether that is shielder/pole/2H, is fucking strong and almost always topping the charts or in the top. I think doing too much to heavy cav will completely overhaul any sense of class balance.
So I say focus on re-balancing ranged damage after this last patch and see how much that brings balance into perspective... THEN nerf heavy cav if problems persist.