cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Black Wind on January 23, 2012, 07:00:04 am

Title: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Black Wind on January 23, 2012, 07:00:04 am
This whole 45 degree lancing is ludicrous, and unrealistic. It is a commodity when lances are outreached by a simplesword front on, and 1 hit. How isn't this bullshit? I am aware that the lesser-skilled NA players need this as a handicap, as their skills are sub-par.

This whole lance nerf is gayer than cum in a moustache.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Tears of Destiny on January 23, 2012, 08:13:05 am
Good god no.

Heavy Lance Broadsiding to the right on my 9 riding courser made me out reach everything but longspears.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Oggrinsky on January 23, 2012, 09:03:11 am
Yes, I'm sorry, but this is a terrible idea.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Nehvar on January 23, 2012, 09:12:23 am
This whole 45 degree lancing is ludicrous, and unrealistic. It is a commodity when lances are outreached by a simplesword front on, and 1 hit. How isn't this bullshit? I am aware that the lesser-skilled NA players need this as a handicap, as their skills are sub-par.

This whole lance nerf is gayer than cum in a moustache.

What do you know of "realism"? Dig up some facts before you claim something is unrealistic.  The historical area of engagement for a lance was thirty degrees; two-thirds of what it is now.  Also, fuck no -- fuck. no. -- to any buff for cavalry. They're disgusting enough as it is.  If you're having difficulty doing well as cavalry it is due to your inexperience, not a lack of power.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Torben on January 23, 2012, 09:13:14 am
cav is so well balanced in the context of all classes,  I cant imagine this being a good idea
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Vibe on January 23, 2012, 09:14:05 am
l2p issue
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 23, 2012, 09:28:15 am
Its really just a matter of perfect timing. With good movement I bring min. 3/4 of all cav that attack me down, but when I recognize some of the very good cavs (currently Chagan, Makaganda?...) its more wise to block cause they time their thrust perfectly combined with perfect riding so that it is impossible to hit them with my 2h.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Malaclypse on January 23, 2012, 10:46:44 am
PEBCAK
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Black Wind on January 23, 2012, 11:52:18 am
l2p issue

Funny you say that, in native duels, id beat you 10/10 no doubt. Ironic how an NA is saying "l2p".
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Vibe on January 23, 2012, 11:53:13 am
Funny you say that, in native duels, id beat you 10/10 no doubt. Ironic how an NA is saying "l2p".

lol

Ironic indeed :D
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Tzar on January 23, 2012, 12:55:30 pm
This whole 45 degree lancing is ludicrous, and unrealistic. It is a commodity when lances are outreached by a simplesword front on, and 1 hit. How isn't this bullshit? I am aware that the lesser-skilled NA players need this as a handicap, as their skills are sub-par.

This whole lance nerf is gayer than cum in a moustache.

No.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on January 23, 2012, 05:31:48 pm
no
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Tears of Destiny on January 23, 2012, 05:46:16 pm
Funny you say that, in native duels, id beat you 10/10 no doubt. Ironic how an NA is saying "l2p".

He is EU you...


Oh god ahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahah

*dies of laughter*
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Glyph on January 23, 2012, 05:55:08 pm
cav is balanced very good atm, but it isn't the cav that i want to be. that's what sucks about cav to me.
and no i'm not feeling for any chitchat about this idea, because it's stupid as f*ck if i may(and yes  may because ToD allowed me  :lol:)
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: PhantomZero on January 23, 2012, 05:58:13 pm
NA has the best cav, http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CJ3fW1BxIRY#t=246s

Welp, cya!
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Black Wind on January 24, 2012, 01:04:32 am
He is EU you...


Oh god ahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahah

*dies of laughter*

Same shit different smell, I'd destroy you all none-the-less.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Peasant_Woman on January 24, 2012, 01:35:16 am
Same shit different smell, I'd destroy you all none-the-less.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 24, 2012, 01:35:23 am
What do you know of "realism"? Dig up some facts before you claim something is unrealistic.  The historical area of engagement for a lance was thirty degrees; two-thirds of what it is now.  Also, fuck no -- fuck. no. -- to any buff for cavalry. They're disgusting enough as it is.  If you're having difficulty doing well as cavalry it is due to your inexperience, not a lack of power.

Not only in my mind does it make sense that cavalry would only be lancing from 45 degrees in front (or 30 as you say), it's good for the balance of the game.  You wouldn't reach out 90 degrees from your body at a full charge and expect to do any real damage stabbing someone (unless they didn't have any decent armor on).  To get any leverage you would need to keep the lance pretty much forward.

It was pretty ridiculous in native when I could ride full speed forward, and then stab behind me and do some serious damage. 

One thing I wish would be implemented for lancing on cavalry however, is being able to turn your grip so you are stabbing downward from the horse.  Would be nice when you are stopped, I'm pretty sure I would spin my lance around, choke up, and stab down onto people's heads (would be good for turning around and stabbing behind the horse or in front of it). 
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Black Wind on January 24, 2012, 01:47:55 am
Not only in my mind does it make sense that cavalry would only be lancing from 45 degrees in front (or 30 as you say), it's good for the balance of the game.  You wouldn't reach out 90 degrees from your body at a full charge and expect to do any real damage stabbing someone (unless they didn't have any decent armor on).  To get any leverage you would need to keep the lance pretty much forward.

It was pretty ridiculous in native when I could ride full speed forward, and then stab behind me and do some serious damage. 

One thing I wish would be implemented for lancing on cavalry however, is being able to turn your grip so you are stabbing downward from the horse.  Would be nice when you are stopped, I'm pretty sure I would spin my lance around, choke up, and stab down onto people's heads (would be good for turning around and stabbing behind the horse or in front of it).

I mentioned this as 'realism' as if another cav charges your flank, you could thrust in that direction, i didn't intend this from a charge perspective lol
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: MeevarTheMighty on January 24, 2012, 01:51:22 am
What do you know of "realism"? Dig up some facts before you claim something is unrealistic.  The historical area of engagement for a lance was thirty degrees; two-thirds of what it is now.  Also, fuck no -- fuck. no. -- to any buff for cavalry. They're disgusting enough as it is.  If you're having difficulty doing well as cavalry it is due to your inexperience, not a lack of power.

Maybe you are talking about couched lancing? I don't think you will find any evidence supporting the idea that for some reason, it was convention in the middle ages to risk death in keeping one's self from attacking an enemy until that enemy is directly ahead. It makes sense to restrict the longer lances to couching, but light cavalry world over were still operating with less unwieldy lances designed for a high stabbing motion in the ancient manner. In terms of gameplay, M&B simulates this quite well.

I think the "skill only" naysayers in this thread are probably content with picking off unattentive players. If you're killing 2hers and polearm players with a light lance at the moment, they should be advised to uninstall. I joined US a couple of days ago with a brand new char, to get it registered on the site and I killed 3 horses in one round with my starting sickle, 300 ping. 1h vs cav is probably a fair fight at the moment, but 2h and pole have no excuse outside a gank. It's very rare to be in such a bad position that you even have to downblock, in my recent experience.

The lance fov reduction was apparently put in place to make 1h cav more effective. 1h cav has not become magically more effective at fighting infantry, they can harry 1h inf, but they are still never ever going to beat an alert 1h or 2h inf 1 on 1.

Courser costs more than Transitional and cavalry balancing needs to take this into account.

To get any leverage you would need to keep the lance pretty much forward.

It was pretty ridiculous in native when I could ride full speed forward, and then stab behind me and do some serious damage. 

I think you underestimate the momentum involved and as I say, overhead lancing was the norm for most medieval cultures.

In native, stabbing behind you gives a huge speed reduction, instead of 250% damage, you might end up doing 20%. It's not so ludicrous.

Edit: Since medieval paintings almost always show combatants facing each other, because of the gothic style, I doubt there are many depictions of sideways lance angle, but here's a guy couching over the fellow next to him.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 24, 2012, 02:12:57 am
If you're riding forward I doubt you would be stabbing 90 degrees to your side.   You have literally no momentum nor leverage.  I'm not only talking about couching.  If you're moving forward (momentum carrying you forward) and you thrust at 90 degrees to your side and catch anything, you're going to either lose your lance, or lose your arm trying to hold on to it.

I think the overhead stab would be good for stabbing down and would "undo" the FoV restriction, but it should only be viable when you're not moving at full speed (basically the opposite of a couched lance).


As it stands right now, I think the restricted FoV is very good for game balance.  It still does feel a little hokey when I'm turning to the right and can't extend my lance out a couple degrees farther (your leverage would allow you to angle it out farther than if you were going forward), but I still think it's a good balance for the game.  It definitely  takes getting used to, and even now after literally 6 months or 8 months of pretty regular game play, I still sometimes get fucked over by it. 
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 24, 2012, 02:17:50 am
I mentioned this as 'realism' as if another cav charges your flank, you could thrust in that direction, i didn't intend this from a charge perspective lol

Yeah I don't like that at all.  His momentum would be enough to impale himself or his horse on your lance.  I see what you're saying, and although I agree 100%, I don't see how they can do that and still keep the game balanced (btw, all I play is lance cavalry).

The only way I can see that working is like I suggested for the overhead stab, that when you are moving under a certain speed you could overhead stab and it would allow a less restricted (or unrestricted FoV).  Basically like the opposite of a couched lance.  I think that would be pretty sweet, but doubt it would be implemented. 


///fuck sorry for double post...meant to edit.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Black Wind on January 24, 2012, 02:27:36 am
If you're riding forward I doubt you would be stabbing 90 degrees to your side.   You have literally no momentum nor leverage.  I'm not only talking about couching.  If you're moving forward (momentum carrying you forward) and you thrust at 90 degrees to your side and catch anything, you're going to either lose your lance, or lose your arm trying to hold on to it.

I think the overhead stab would be good for stabbing down and would "undo" the FoV restriction, but it should only be viable when you're not moving at full speed (basically the opposite of a couched lance).


As it stands right now, I think the restricted FoV is very good for game balance.  It still does feel a little hokey when I'm turning to the right and can't extend my lance out a couple degrees farther (your leverage would allow you to angle it out farther than if you were going forward), but I still think it's a good balance for the game.  It definitely  takes getting used to, and even now after literally 6 months or 8 months of pretty regular game play, I still sometimes get fucked over by it.


Okay, if you're stationary, or travelling slowly, and an enemy cav comes at you side on, you have momentum, as it's always conserved. If the flanking horse is travelling at say, 40km/h, that is 11.1111.... m/s. if that horse weighs around 400kg with rider that is P=MV. Therefore, your lance would strike the charging horse at 11.111... x 400 = 4,444kgm/s.

That is more than enough to kill someone riding to your flank. and lancing at that angle is possible from a slow/stationary speed.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Kato on January 24, 2012, 02:32:37 am
Funny you say that, in native duels, id beat you 10/10 no doubt. Ironic how an NA is saying "l2p".

lol, everybody must love aussie warband comunity they are so awesome :lol:
Fortunatelly all this thousands of noobs on NA and EU are protected by great ping wall and cant be humiliate by 15 aus players.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on January 24, 2012, 02:32:55 am
Let's also make archers shoot fast, and crossbows be sniper rifles.
Oh, and make all shields made of paper.

Must be bad idea day.
(Wouldn't using REALISM facts make this belong in the realism section?)
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Torben on January 24, 2012, 02:33:19 am
cant we just lock this thread.  its lost anyway
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: MeevarTheMighty on January 24, 2012, 02:52:45 am
If you're riding forward I doubt you would be stabbing 90 degrees to your side.   You have literally no momentum nor leverage.  I'm not only talking about couching.  If you're moving forward (momentum carrying you forward) and you thrust at 90 degrees to your side and catch anything, you're going to either lose your lance, or lose your arm trying to hold on to it.

I think the overhead stab would be good for stabbing down and would "undo" the FoV restriction, but it should only be viable when you're not moving at full speed (basically the opposite of a couched lance). 

So you think it's easier to pull your lance out of something you hit head on? Think about it.

That's the purpose of the lance thrust, to fulfill the role that overhead stabbing would have and as the opposite of couching. At the moment thrusting gives a small range increase and can be blocked with a sword, otherwise they are fairly identical. It's boring and it feels artificial.

lol, everybody must love aussie warband comunity they are so awesome :lol:
Fortunatelly all this thousands of noobs on NA and EU are protected by great ping wall and cant be humiliate by 15 aus players.

Lol idk about this. We still manage the occasional humiliation, but you guys will get better, maybe some day it will be as you say.  :P
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Torben on January 24, 2012, 03:21:14 am
a small range increase

range increase is paramount to survival against a 2hander, spearman or couched lance.

can be blocked with a sword

bumpslash,  mate : )
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Vibe on January 24, 2012, 07:52:05 am
lol, everybody must love aussie warband comunity they are so awesome :lol:
Fortunatelly all this thousands of noobs on NA and EU are protected by great ping wall and cant be humiliate by 15 aus players.

Agree, please save us from aussies, noone could handle their leet skills!

They would 10/10 us in a duel no doubt bro!!!
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Zerran on January 24, 2012, 07:55:28 am
All game balance issues aside, if you stab at a 90* angle on a charging horse you're going to break your arm if you hit anything. This is very simple physics: very long stick + very fast speed + force being applied in a perpendicular direction to the stick = very strong leverage effect perpendicular to your arm, which is already being held at an awkward angle outward. Best case scenario is a sprained wrist, worst case is a fractured elbow and dislocated shoulder.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Black Wind on January 24, 2012, 08:59:32 am
Agree, please save us from aussies, noone could handle their leet skills!

They would 10/10 us in a duel no doubt bro!!!

Spam works in EU and NA, due to the almost complete absence of blocks.

You will witness amazing potential and utter eliteness from the hordes of PK. We are number one, globally.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Bobthehero on January 24, 2012, 09:08:50 am
Orkz Aussie is made fer' two fings! Fightin', and winnin' Wigglin' their egos aroun' an' bein' laugh'd at!

This thread in a nutshell.

They gotta compensate for the fact that they live on that shitty island y'see.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Vibe on January 24, 2012, 09:13:57 am
Spam works in EU and NA, due to the almost complete absence of blocks.

You will witness amazing potential and utter eliteness from the hordes of PK. We are number one, globally.

Lol typical PK attitude, keep trying to matter, noone cares ;)
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: indigocylinder on January 24, 2012, 01:02:16 pm
Didn't hatsune demonstrate to you how a horseman with skill can dominate even with the reduced spectrum?

oh wait, you were probably banned /

Still, it's absurd to ask for the game to be made easier for you, and then in the same breath insult the ability of people you've never seen play.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Vibe on January 24, 2012, 01:23:31 pm
Still, it's absurd to ask for the game to be made easier for you, and then in the same breath insult the ability of people you've never seen play.

/thread
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: MeevarTheMighty on January 24, 2012, 02:58:30 pm
All game balance issues aside, if you stab at a 90* angle on a charging horse you're going to break your arm if you hit anything. This is very simple physics: very long stick + very fast speed + force being applied in a perpendicular direction to the stick = very strong leverage effect perpendicular to your arm, which is already being held at an awkward angle outward. Best case scenario is a sprained wrist, worst case is a fractured elbow and dislocated shoulder.

What do you think happens when you skewer someone head on?

bumpslash,  mate : )

Wow, you're right, that solves everything. Thanks a million, chum.   [| :   )

Now, my betterment aside, you seem aware that cav can stab at distance or while they're on top of you, but you seem to have missed the difficulty in convincing your target to stand there like an idiot and let you collide with him, thrust at the ready. Bumpslash is still useful, I agree, but people are much more prepared for it now lancers have fewer options.

Didn't hatsune demonstrate to you how a horseman with skill can dominate even with the reduced spectrum?

oh wait, you were probably banned /

Still, it's absurd to ask for the game to be made easier for you, and then in the same breath insult the ability of people you've never seen play.

Coming from someone whose sensibility is limited to insiniating that Hatsune is a good cavalryman... how hurtful and poignant (Spec still works with 350 ping btw). :P

Nice to know at least you still hate cav.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: B3RS3RK on January 24, 2012, 03:09:00 pm
Spam works in EU and NA, due to the almost complete absence of blocks.

You will witness amazing potential and utter eliteness from the hordes of PK. We are number one, globally.

You are number one in bragging for sure.

Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: indigocylinder on January 24, 2012, 03:52:57 pm
Eh, hatsune improved considerably and quickly, to the point where his team was winning over four out of five rounds all night long. Partly this was due to banner auto-unbalance, but his cav skills had a big impact.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Torben on January 24, 2012, 03:59:39 pm


what is pk,  and who is hatsune?
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Black Wind on January 24, 2012, 09:59:10 pm

what is pk,  and who is hatsune?

PK, commonly referred to as the Gods of Caladria. It's a clan of which every player is a powerhouse individually. A monumental figure of skill. Our teamwork is sublime and works to our intent 100% of the time, due to our status and reputation we mean to maintain.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Stabby_Dave on January 24, 2012, 10:36:56 pm
PK, commonly referred to as the Gods of Caladria. It's a clan of which every player is a powerhouse individually. A monumental figure of skill. Our teamwork is sublime and works to our intent 100% of the time, due to our status and reputation we mean to maintain.

Then why has noone heard of PK or any of its members?

Edit: Wait, I just got it, youre being ironic. Ha, I feel foolish now.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: MeevarTheMighty on January 25, 2012, 12:00:14 am
Eh, hatsune improved considerably and quickly, to the point where his team was winning over four out of five rounds all night long. Partly this was due to banner auto-unbalance, but his cav skills had a big impact.

I've been banned so goshed darn long (by a really bad cav player that doesn't play any more) that I can't be certain you're not telling the truth, but since I've played with him for a couple of years now and no sign of improvement... are you sure you're not thinking about Dutchy? Both are now hauling 100k + to battle (presumably through some strat scam), as I recall, so they would be easy to confuse.

Therein lies the point: A horse should be more beneficial to the rider than a suit of armour of equal value, because horses cost both $$$ and skill points. You can't honestly tell me you find lance cavalry challanging opponents as they are.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Black Wind on January 25, 2012, 12:37:46 am
Then why has noone heard of PK or any of its members?

Edit: Wait, I just got it, youre being ironic. Ha, I feel foolish now.


Because we have an economy in Australia, unlike NA and Europe.

You're a backwards people. That's why you haven't heard of us. Might in a few years though, with luck on your part.
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Vibe on January 25, 2012, 07:51:53 am
Don't feed the troll boys
Title: Re: Bring back the native lance spectrum
Post by: Armbrust_Schtze on January 25, 2012, 05:13:51 pm
but could we maybe increase the specttrum for mounted spears? i think spears should be able to have a larger stabbing angle..