cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: gazda on January 21, 2012, 09:52:08 pm
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I've been thinking about teamplay in this mod and wild idea appeard;
What if every player would have an invisble circle around him. Like this:
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And every time another players(your teammate) circle overlaps with yours, like this:
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You would get a bonus. In this example; Players circle(green) overlaped with 3 other players(teammates) circles(blue),
so he would get a bonus of one circle multiplied by 3(number of circles with which he overlaps )
i think that would dramatically improve the randomness of battles and scattered infantry dancing around, and it would also give a reason for cav to charge in formation, and also, very impotrantly, it would make ARCHERS stand together in one spot and shoot in battle. This all combined would improve general feeling of this mod.
Bonuses could be many, improved wpp, strenght, agility, health points, or for archers improved accuracy, draw speed or even damage(thats why it would encourage them to stick together in one mass formation and not like nowdays, lonely robin hoods sniping from rooftops and other places)
I hope you understand what i mean
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PERMABAN when no teammates in circle.
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Add medical skill, while in the circle of medic teammate you recover 1hp/3sec.
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lol i didnt mean any penalty when not in circle but just a bonus when they are in
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Winning a 1v3 already requires the three players to screw up. Player numbers don't need to be made more powerful than they already are.
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In my opinion teamwork basically means that you work together with your team with the aim to win the battle which requires good tactics. And good teamtactics again do not mean charging the enemie as a massed group. You could flank the enemie with 2 groups for example and this would count to teamwork.
What I'm trying to say is that you can split the army as a tactic and it's still teamwork. Especially archers should not be that close to infantry same with cavalry.
Apart from that good idea.
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It's interesting, but...hell, part of the fun of battle is when the entire group spontaneously begins to organize. That feeling when there's a battle line at a choke point, and everyone's fighting their hardest with the people next to them...it's rare, but damn it's a good feeling.
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I've been thinking about...
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And...
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I hope you understand what i mean
THIS comes to mind. (http://splicd.com/UdJDAPDltMM/262/274)
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Silly suggestion. I'd rather have voluntary no teamplay, than forced teamplay. Let the people play the game how they want to play the game. Sticking in one massive blob is usually the opposite of teamwork. And heck, that's what most battles are at the moment. Huge zerg running against the other zerg.
lol i didnt mean any penalty when not in circle but just a bonus when they are in
Scenario:
1. Billy's favourite weapon is longsword
2. All other weapons are buffed except the longsword
3. lol i didnt mean any penalty when using longsword but just a bonus when using something else.
Everytime something is buffed, everything that's not buffed along with it is nerfed. They become less effective, unless these two things have no effect on eachother whatsoever. This suggestion would make plenty viable tactics less effective.
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Silly suggestion. I'd rather have voluntary no teamplay, than forced teamplay. Let the people play the game how they want to play the game. Sticking in one massive blob is usually the opposite of teamwork. And heck, that's what most battles are at the moment. Huge zerg running against the other zerg.
Scenario:
1. Billy's favourite weapon is longsword
2. All other weapons are buffed except the longsword
3. lol i didnt mean any penalty when using longsword but just a bonus when using something else.
Everytime something is buffed, everything that's not buffed along with it is nerfed. They become less effective, unless these two things have no effect on eachother whatsoever. This suggestion would make plenty viable tactics less effective.
like ninja one ? :wink:
can be great idea
but need improvement
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New suggestion: Old suggestion + if you have noone in your circle, you must wear black lamellar or PERMABAN.
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If it's possible to track damage done in terms of assists for kills, it could be worth it to encourage teamwork by giving some fairly small amount of expirience if you are either a) very close to dying enemy b) did damage to the dying enemy during this round
Currently I'm disincentivized from moving with my team because seriously, the more teammates are around me the higher the chance of some of them killing me is. Running in fairly light armor as a shielder makes like 10% of my death directly related to friendlies. If I run in a mass it's likely that a friendly archer or infantry kills me either by himself or by interrupting my pro right mouse button holding. If I run alone there's still a fairly good chance a friendly cavalry comes to bump me and/or kill me while I fight, but at least the chance is lower.
The only way to get me move in a big blob (I am happy to move in small groups of friends who I'm in voip chat with!) is to give me some carrot to go with it.
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chadz should just include this as a "feature" without actually doing anything. Make people think they get a bonus, how will they tell? :P
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I don't think you should use the expression "forced teamplay", because the game shouldn't force anybody. But "encouraged teamplay" or something like that would be better.
There have been already several good suggestions, all similar to yours, but the developers didn't even state if they want teamplay on the servers or not.
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like ninja one ? :wink:
Yes
I don't think you should use the expression "forced teamplay", because the game shouldn't force anybody. But "encouraged teamplay" or something like that would be better.
There have been already several good suggestions, all similar to yours, but the developers didn't even state if they want teamplay on the servers or not.
Call it what you will, won't change the contents.
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Call it what you will, won't change the contents.
I don't think that 99% of all players can be considerate of 1% ninjas. At the most. You decided for a special role-playing-character, which already has lower effectivity than needed. You can't expect from all others to not create a teamplay system to not punish Ninjas. You don't want to play in a team? Okay. But please allow others to do so. Noone wants to punish you, you wanted to be a Ninja yourself.
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I don't think that 99% of all players can be considerate of 1% ninjas. At the most. You decided for a special role-playing-character, which already has lower effectivity than needed. You can't expect from all others to not create a teamplay system to not punish Ninjas. You don't want to play in a team? Okay. But please allow others to do so. Noone wants to punish you, you wanted to be a Ninja yourself.
So people are not allowed teamplay now. :rolleyes:
This is skillbase game and teamplay already beat skill. And people wants to play as hero and kill 2-3 singlehandedly, because its fun.
Teamplay is fun too, and you can always do it (if there is not enough people interested on public server, you can still apply for clan and play when clanmates are on), but 2 big mobs clash each other every round is not fun.
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This sentence was directed at Ninja-Khorin's general attitude against a feature that rewards teamplay.
And yes, teamplay is actually self-rewarding, but this fact is not obvious enough for the random cRPG-lemming. Giving a direct and concrete reward for teamplay would increase gameplay. And this doesn't mean clusterfuck every time.
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Although sticking together and gang-banging usually works, especially when the players cant kill in 1 vs 1,
it really doesnt mean that the lone wolf flanking and taking out several archers doesnt work for his team. I often think that those players do more good to the team than those players that hide behind me, just waiting for the right moment to teamhit me when I am on my way to kill the opponent.
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You are right, but only IF he manages to do so. In most cases the Ninjas just get shot or lanced and that's it. The maps are too small and often too open to effectively move as a Ninja. Unless you can't kill several archers in the majority of all rounds (and you can't), I say it's better to stick to the team. Especially as infantry, because cavalry can do this job much better in most cases.
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What that other guy said. Moving in one blob does not equal teamwork. Not in the slightest. Also, there are plenty of other flankers around than ninjas. I remember epic fights between wolves and ninjas in the flanks a few months back. And not all ninjas flank. However, as a ninja I will write this from my point of view and according to your stereotypical ninja theory(ninja = flanker).
You say ninjas are ineffective at their task. Perhaps. I'm usually well above halfway on the scoreboard on battle(the one gamemode where kills are of any significance) and I spend most of my time doing short flanking runs, leaving cav to do the longer ones(depending on the map). Some maps have good routes for long flanking runs, some are better for shorter ones. I stay away from the main group to avoid random teamhits and arrow fire aimed at the main group, because I don't have enough health and my armour is low. The kills I usually get are archers too slow to run away from me, backstabs and some fancy duels. These kills I get, because I always attack the enemy from behind or from the sides, because that's where the archers and exposed backs are. The fancy duels come from players that have any clue about their surroundings.
On a full frontal engagement between two groups the ninja is close to useless because you are outranged and the enemy is better equipped than you, meaning that you might have to hit the 3-4 times as opposed to their one hit. Also, the teamhits are much more detrimental. In fact, I usually tend to do better alone when I can puppet master the enemy group to block their own strikes and teamhit without having to worry about a teammate getting in the way.
The point of this rambling is this: Just because I'm not in the blob, does not mean I'm not working with the team. The reason I can get kills is because the enemy is focused on the main blob(archers being completely oblivious of their surroundings). My whole strategy depends on the fact that my team is distracting the enemy. If 5 enemies are focusing on me instead of the main group, then that means the main group has a momentary numerical advantage over the enemies main group. If only one is fighting me and I die, then that is because I suck. If that is not teamwork according to your definition, then I do not know what is.
You are right, but only IF he manages to do so.
But when he manages to do it, it is teamwork? Does that mean that every time the main blob dies a horrible death in the hands of the enemies main blob it is not considered teamwork?
I can't stress this enough: All battles atm, are already 85% of the people sticking together(not counting cav in that number) in one blob somewhere. That is usually a bunch of killhungry people doing anything to kill people, regardless of what's happening to the teammates. This suggestion would change very little, apart from making the 15% not in the main group even more ineffective at their attempt of any interesting strategy in battles.
I am in favour of some teamwork encouraging ideas, like shieldwalls strengthening the shield durability while in formation. And other such things. My negativity atm stems from my opposition of this particular suggestion, and some others like it, that I've seen.
TLDR: Too long didn't write.
EDIT: Just saw this:
You decided for a special role-playing-character, which already has lower effectivity than needed. You can't expect from all others to not create a teamplay system to not punish Ninjas.
cRPG. I'm pretty sure the "RPG" part stands for Role-Playing Game. I dunno what you other guys are up to.
I guess 2-h cav should also be made less effective, because it is too ineffective. This is not an argument to buff ninjas, just an argument to show the logical inconsistency in your argument. Ideally, all characters would be equally effective.
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Your proposition is an incentive not forced. I feel like the bonuses should be something small, like extra 2HP.
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Fully agree with Khorin here.
Anyone can just hange around the main blob and get kills. What takes some skill is flanking and distracting a bunch of enemies. Winning the 3v1. The things that actually puts your team at an advantage rather than going blob vs blob and roll the die.
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[...]
Actually I agree to most of what you said. It all depends on the teamplay system you implement. Some time ago I suggested the following thing in the topic of your clanmate:
If I had to invent a system spontaneously, I would give the commander (who would be elected by forum vote, as I wrote earlier in this thread) the minimap from single player, combined with the feature that you can set flags by aiming with the reticle, too.
The ingame HUD of all players will receive a small additional HUD element in one corner of the screen, that looks like this:
Press "I" to join "Shield Infantry"
Press "O" to join "Shieldless Infantry"
Press "P" to join "Pikemen/Spearmen"
Press "H" to join "Archers/Crossbowmen/Throwers"
Press "J" to join "Cavalry"
Press "K" to join "Horse Archers"
Press "crtl + F13" to exit the command system
As soon as you join one of those "batallions", the other options disappear, unless you leave it again by pressing another key, which is also displayed there.
Shield Infantry
Target: Attack freely
Stance: Advance slowly
Press "L" to leave this class command group
Now the commander has certain command menus (depending on the number key he pressed, from 1 to 6, corresponding to the different classes), they could look like this:
F1: Flag Menu - F1: Move there - F1: Position 1
F2: Position 2
F3: Position 3
F4: Position 4
F5: Positon 5
F6: Delete all
F2: Defend - F1: Defend 1
F2: Defend 2
F3: Defend 3
F4: Defend 4
F5: Defend 5
F6: Delete all
F3: Stay away! - F1: Danger 1
F2: Danger 2
F3: Danger 3
F4: Danger 4
F5: Danger 5
F6: Delete all
F4: Attack here! - F1: Target 1
F2: Target 2
F3: Target 3
F4: Target 4
F5: Target 5
F5: Hide here! - F1: Hideout 1
F2: Hideout 2
F3: Hideout 3
F4: Hideout 4
F5: Hideout 5
F6: Delete all
F6: Delete all/move freely
F7: Special flags - F1: Place ladder here
F2: Place siege shield here
F3: Destroy this siege equipment
F4: Jump down here
F5: Take this building
F6: Delete all
F2: Target Menu - F1: General targets- F1: Attack freely
F2: Infantry
F3: Ranged fighters
F4: Cavalry
F5: Defend only/hide
F2: Class targets - F1: Shield Infantry
F2: Shieldless Infantry
F3: Pikemen/Spearmen
F4: Archers/Crossbowmen
F5: Cavalry
F6: Horse Archers
F3: Defend/Support-F1: General Classes - F1: Infantry
F2: Ranged fighters
F3: Cavalry
F2: Specific Classes - F1: Shield infantry
F2: Shieldless infantry
F3: Pikemen/Spearmen
F4: Archers/Crossbowmen
F5: Cavalry
F6: Horse Archers
F3: Stance Menu - F1: Advance slowly
F2: Advance aggressively
F3: Hold/defend your position, wait
F4: Withdraw slowly
F5: Withdraw as fast as possible!
F4: Special orders
/Screen messages: F1: Attack!
F2: Fall back!
F3: Watch out! - F1: Left flank!
F2: Right flank!
F3: Back!
F4: Stop here and defend!
F5: Form shield wall!
F6: Dissemble shield wall!
F7: Support infantry in melee!
F8: Defend archers!
F9: Regroup!
Short explanations:
Flag menu: As you can see, almost all flags have five versions. This allows the commander to better show which areas he is talking about, and to give him the opportunity to mark several locations, e.g. if there are several deadly bottlenecks, he can mark all of them. Or he can form a square with "Defend!"-flags, showing which area is to be hold.
I intentionally placed the special flags after the "delete all" command, to keep it on F6, which should be easier to learn for the commander.
Flags don't need to be actually flags, as every player can potentially see 30 of them on the field. Flags can be rather annoying as they block the view, I am aware of this. I think something simpler would do it, too. Perhaps a skull on a pike could be the "Danger"-flag, with the small word "danger" in yellow letters under the skull, on one hand to make obvious which "marker" stands for which order, and on the other hand to make clear this thing is not part of the map.
Target menu: I think there is nothing much to say about. It helps if the commander wants a certain class to concentrate on a certain enemy class, e.g. cavalry focusing archers or the other way round. Of course it is not neccessary to always mark cavalry as target for pikemen, for example, they will (should?) do this automatically.
Stance menu: This menu is meant to support the commander in influencing the general behaviour of his team, which represents the general course of the battle. It's rather selfexplanatory.
Special orders/screen messages: in difference to the other orders, that appear on the new "order" HUD-element, those messages appear as big red text in the middle of the screen, for a second or two.
Perhaps it would be nice if joining a certain class would give you different default orders, for example Pikemen having cavalry as target, insted of attack freely. But it isn't that neccessary, I think, it would just be a nice addition.
Now, for example, whenever you approach the right flag (or there are none set, which means you can move freely), you can get a small reward, once per tick. But if you for example approach the "danger!"-flag, you don't receive a punishment, but you won't be able to receive a reward for this tick any more, either.
And if you kill an enemy that joined the class you were assigned to target, you get a small reward. (Ouch! I just realize that this would be some sort of reward for kills, the thing I was always against it - I have to rethink this one :? )
A reward could be 5 gold and 10 XP, for example. Something little, but still enough to make you follow orders if you are indifferent about it, otherwise. (Just to maotivate people who don't care if they use tactics or not, and thus in most cases, as there is no tactic, don't follow any :? )
We could easily exted the groups to a "flanking" or "ambush" group, with corresponding orders and rewards. This way you could get rewarded for your favourite way to play the game, and the others could receive some benefit more often than now, as with a good commander (and I suppose the community will find out who's a good commander and who's not very quickly) the entire tactic of the team can be adjusted to it. Which means your flanking maneuver will be at the spot that helps your team the most, and your team will do the best to support you in your flanking maneuver, for example by attacking at the other flank, distracting the enemy, so that you can not only charge from the side, but even from the back.
Something like that. The old clusterfuck system like pre-upkeep was not ideal. Especially for all other classes but infantry.
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Actually I agree to most of what you said. It all depends on the teamplay system you implement. Some time ago I suggested the following thing in the topic of your clanmate:
I knew you would. You tend to be a smart guy :wink:
My main objection was to this suggestion, in particular..
And i have nothing against the sort of system that implements every type of way to play the game. I didn't read it in full, but I got the gist of it. The reason why ninjas often fail in the flanking, is becuase the flanking attack often comes too late or too early. But if there was a way to communicate with the main blob so we could make a coordinated attack it would improve the odds quite a lot. And I have seen these types of attacks happen(accidentally) and they've nearly always ended in a ton of dead enemies and my sword drenched in blood. Ninjas often die if the main blob doesn't attack quick enough, because we can't hold off all the archers and cav forever.
A more intricate command system would significantly improve on the game, m'thinks. And if the reward is completely monetary or xp based, then the incentive is strong, but you don't get forced to teamwork the same like if you'd get stat boosts for working together. It should remain optional to take part in, but to get levels faster would surely attrack at least most of the players, I think.
EDIT: HOLY HELL. I just realized I agreed with Michael in the other post. Christ, what have I become?
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EDIT: HOLY HELL. I just realized I agreed with Michael in the other post. Christ, what have I become?
I thought the same, because my post came after his and I started with "You are right", but I have to say he started to become reasonable once he stopped defending the tincan-elephant-rider of being a viable and balanced class. :wink: