cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Belmont on January 03, 2011, 05:08:08 pm

Title: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Belmont on January 03, 2011, 05:08:08 pm
Firstly a disclaimer This thread is not about STRATEGUS or SIEGE Please do not post about either of those, as my suggestion is not related to them in any way. So only regular cRPG battles.
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What needs to be done to greatly improve gameplay of regular cRPG battle is REMOVE LADDERS. Right now, almost every map ends up with the same "situation" - one team's archer climb up to a rooftop where they barricade themselves in a sort of sniper nest. The other team then can not absolutely touch them with cav or inf (unless ALL enemy inf is dead first) and sometimes even then - since destroying the ladder is easy and so is easy destroying enemy ladders trying to climb up. What then happens the only thing is left is that those archers battle it out with enemy archers.

So the negative effects are:

- one team has a serious advantage, since their archers are protected while enemy archers fighting them must beware cav and inf
- each round becomes a "camp the roof" round
- those on the roof are safe from 2 of 3 types of enemy forces (all non-ranged)
- its always THE SAME no matter which map is played

All the while, ladders might be cool, neatly programed, somewhat a novelty (no longer as much as before) but they do NOT add to the game experience, they make it WEAKER.

So we should definetly ban ladders from regular battles! The point of cRPG isnt that any roof becomes a sniper nest and 100% safe from enemy melee. This prevents a wide number of other tactics. T
The advantages of removing ladders:
-  forcing a shieldwall to be made for protection of archers (steep roof is better)  - but shieldwall takes effort and has other weaknesses. -> variable tactic
- archers actualy NEEDING protection of their own infantry. right now all they have to do is cut the ladder down. Or easly kill the sole climber with 5 archers on top --> remember on open field maps how archers, if breached by enemy melee -> are squishy as they die fast. Thats GOOD.
- actually making use of other terrain features then roof. And that usually always the same roof.


Siege equipment (ladders, shields, construction sites) should in fact all be used for just that  - sieges.

I would like to continue this topic on these forums. Credits go to Ironlake for the original post.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Phazey on January 03, 2011, 05:39:10 pm
I really love the ladders. It turns boring, static maps into dynamic and tactically interesting maps.

I know it looks ugly and it's a bit buggy, but i can live with that. For me, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Christo on January 03, 2011, 06:21:18 pm
I really love the ladders. It turns boring, static maps into dynamic and tactically interesting maps.

And they turn bad maps even worse! Duh.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Phazey on January 03, 2011, 06:47:21 pm
And they turn bad maps even worse!
How so? Can you elaborate?
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Ishar on January 03, 2011, 07:04:25 pm
I love the concept of ladders, but the ladderpult aspect is really-really annoying. I think everyone can agree on that.
So, can't ladders be 'solid' only when they are deployed? The 'fixed' ladders on siege maps work like that, and that's way better for everyone. I don't know how it's coded, so if it's complicated, forget I said something, but if it's easy to change, please consider it.

Also, I don't know, but shouldn't things like this belong to the balance subforum? I may be wrong.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Roran Hawkins on January 03, 2011, 07:14:06 pm
Especially in siege servers, ladders make the attackers the defenders, their archers just camp the keep where the defenders can't reach them and spawnkill them
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Paladin on January 03, 2011, 07:22:20 pm
I think, ladders are very usefull and what some persone said that every round is in the end a round of "camping archers at unreachable places" isn´t true. Since I play Crpg i see much rounds of normal fighting( and there the ladders are part of the tactic, for example the map with the tower and the water in the middle, then you can use the ladder to surprise the enemy ;-) ) and i see some rounds, where in the end one Team is camping at unreachable places, but it was funny to see, that the "sniper"(maybe on a roof) often be killed from the other team because they´re like little pigs in the water  :). Maybe it is boring for much people but i see only the fun

Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Hecur on January 03, 2011, 07:45:31 pm
Ladders are cool! 8)

Remove them-> Prepare to die by my hand.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Mtemtko on January 03, 2011, 07:58:40 pm
Make a limit of how many ladders can be used in siege,and remove them totally in battles is my opinion.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Kafein on January 03, 2011, 08:19:04 pm
Agreed with the OP.

Ladders turn every roof into unreachable sniper nests. That's the main problem, and it is nearly gamebreaking on village maps. After that we can continue with :

- Horses able to go on them
- They are stopping horses (obviously the charge would simply destruct the ladder)
- They are immune to physics
- They are anti-arrow shields
- They are never used in a realistic way

You can't possibly develop a game where a specific class is immune to anything apart itself.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Brutal on January 03, 2011, 08:38:47 pm
You can't possibly develop a game where a specific class is immune to anything apart itself.

So I guess we should rename the thread remove ladders and horse archer than  ;)
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Kifli on January 03, 2011, 09:42:15 pm
there are better solutions like remove all laders after a roud that just elimitane them son I voted no .
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Vexus on January 03, 2011, 09:50:22 pm
To quote myself:

Can't you add lootable ladders in maps instead of being able to buy them?

I mean in x map there would be 4 (Or more?) ladders in location 1,2,3,4 which are lootable from everyone (I would like that ladders wouldn't be switch able when carried) this way they can't be spammed and this guarantees that every side would be able to have a ladder/s
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Can_of_Spam on January 03, 2011, 10:10:45 pm
I dont know if this possible because what i know of code you could write on the back of a matchbox.
I think it would be good idea if 2 people should have carry the ladder into combat as would happen in real life.They should have a decreased speed so the rest of the team would have to work to shield them form enemy fire
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Can_of_Spam on January 03, 2011, 10:19:22 pm
By the way love the ad on top of this forum page (Massive sale on ladders) :lol:
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Ujin on January 03, 2011, 11:01:16 pm
Make a limit of how many ladders can be used in siege,and remove them totally in battles is my opinion.
This.

Like i said in the similar topic on talewords forum, ladders don't bring tactics, instead they bring camping in cRPG to a whole new level.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Pukudo on January 04, 2011, 12:48:56 am
I reckon ladders should just get a size nerf... Really the smallest ladder at 500 gold is still pretty darn big and can do pretty much everything all the other ladders can do. What happened to fence sized ladders?
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Gorath on January 04, 2011, 12:52:47 am
If anything make it so that ladders are not destroyable once planted, you can only raise or lower the stupid things.  Why should I be forced to carry a damn ladder or two in my inventory to chase down map exploiters camping places you're not supposed to go according to the original design of the map.  Ladders only further encourage the game to become more of a medieval CS game than M&B.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Kafein on January 04, 2011, 12:55:19 am
Even a map with very few roofs turns into a camping nightmare :
(click to show/hide)

And shorter ladders wouldn't help at all. Ladders simply make every map with at least one spot to camp/glitch a camp/glitch paradise.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Belmont on January 04, 2011, 01:49:49 am
If anything make it so that ladders are not destroyable once planted, you can only raise or lower the stupid things.  Why should I be forced to carry a damn ladder or two in my inventory to chase down map exploiters camping places you're not supposed to go according to the original design of the map.  Ladders only further encourage the game to become more of a medieval CS game than M&B.

I like this idea, however, it does not fix the main problem with ladders. I believe that if ladders were heavily restricted and coupled with this idea we would have a fair trade between the ladder haters and the ladder lovers as it does not remove ladders from the game but we also see a big decrease in the use of ladders.

One of my ideas about restricting ladders is to tag a PT requirement on them, starting at 6 for the most basic ladder and ending with 9 for siege ladders. This forces a thrower to pick either one more stack of throwing weapons or take a ladder in order to help his team and with the soft level cap reaching 27 STR will not be a common feat, making siege ladders a rare sight. This solution would still allow them to be usable on Strategus as IIRC only bows will require proper requirements.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Ishar on January 04, 2011, 01:53:47 am
Simple idea: just make these fuckers really-really expensive. If they cost as much as a good weapon or armor, people will think twice before bringing it into battle (repair cost) - and not enough of them to spam!
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Gorath on January 04, 2011, 02:05:40 am
Simple idea: just make these fuckers really-really expensive. If they cost as much as a good weapon or armor, people will think twice before bringing it into battle (repair cost) - and not enough of them to spam!

Hell, that's a brilliant idea actually.  Say as much as an armored horse.  So they're still good strategic investments for sieges, but definately not something anyone is going to spam/use on battle servers.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Belmont on January 04, 2011, 02:08:29 am
Simple idea: just make these fuckers really-really expensive. If they cost as much as a good weapon or armor, people will think twice before bringing it into battle (repair cost) - and not enough of them to spam!

Hell, that's a brilliant idea actually.  Say as much as an armored horse.  So they're still good strategic investments for sieges, but definately not something anyone is going to spam/use on battle servers.

Definitely an excellent idea as it also cuts down on ladder spam in Strategus, or rather, makes it expensive and not viable for the whole siege.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Shigeru on January 04, 2011, 05:07:06 am
I gotta say I like ladders and the extra dimension it adds to the game, even if it does cost me a round or two sometimes. I don't feel they are anything that breaks the game so drastically that it warrants removing them, but that's just my view.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Baggy on January 04, 2011, 05:13:28 am
How about a server with no ladders for us ppl who dont like them, and if dosnt work out we can all go back to ladder mania.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Leiknir on January 04, 2011, 05:14:27 am
If you plan to make them more expensive, they should be made out of wood, not paper. I mean it takes ~ 4 axe hits to destroy one, that's just ugly. They should be like native ladders, not destroyable while someone stands on them.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Camaris on January 04, 2011, 09:09:21 am
I voted yes but it would also be ok to:

- delete Siege Ladders
- Reduce ladders per team to 3-5
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Pukudo on January 04, 2011, 10:41:57 pm
I voted yes but it would also be ok to:

- delete Siege Ladders
- Reduce ladders per team to 3-5
Like
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Sellefis on January 08, 2011, 04:37:56 pm
i vote YES..

i  like the idear to make a siege workshop where the attackers can create theyr siege constructions..
but please remove the leadders from the shop...

Example
you buy leadders on the siegeworkshop, after 30 seconds they spawn
and if the leadder is destroyed u can create a new leadder
and on that way only 3-6 leadders can be spawned at the same time.. 
maybe we can use and edit the skript from Arch3r
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Stormcrow on January 08, 2011, 04:45:28 pm
It would be nice nice if ladders could be made permanant so archers and ranged ppl cant hide on rooftops. Then make it so the ladders disappear after each round. This is just a suggestion for Battle mode not for seige.
Title: Re: [cRPG Battle] - Remove Ladders
Post by: Puppybull on January 08, 2011, 05:01:48 pm
Ishar is smart. Gorath agrees. Settled then? I'm sure you all know I love ladders but in a battle I admit it's unfair to a team in some maps.