cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Bl0rk on February 21, 2011, 04:43:58 pm

Title: Dueling build?
Post by: Bl0rk on February 21, 2011, 04:43:58 pm
Hey everyone!

So I want to know what's the perfect dueling build with a longsword?

In this thread here http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,1789.0.html, Gorath and Xant kinda discussed about using a 18/21
(click to show/hide)

or a 16/24 build
(click to show/hide)

So which one would you recommend for 1 vs 1? The stronger or the faster one?
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Xant on February 21, 2011, 04:49:07 pm
21 strength and 18 agi is best. The speed difference between 155 and 164 wpf isn't worth it. Go for the damage of 7 PS.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Siiem on February 21, 2011, 05:03:14 pm
21 strength and 18 agi is best. The speed difference between 155 and 164 wpf isn't worth it. Go for the damage of 7 PS.


sssssssh.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Xant on February 21, 2011, 05:06:24 pm

sssssssh.

lol stfu i'm trying to get them to be noobs
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: UrLukur on February 21, 2011, 05:10:37 pm
7 athletic on the other hand is worth it.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Bl0rk on February 21, 2011, 05:12:35 pm
So what now??? Please come to a conclusion or I'll be confused as hell  :D
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: UrLukur on February 21, 2011, 05:14:21 pm
So what now??? Please come to a conclusion or I'll be confused as hell  :D
21/21
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Bl0rk on February 21, 2011, 05:16:49 pm
21/21

Sure... convert 14 skillpoints or what? Sounds very stupid...
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Xant on February 21, 2011, 05:17:27 pm
7 athletic on the other hand is worth it.

yes

it's mathematics

Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: UrLukur on February 21, 2011, 05:22:17 pm
Sure... convert 14 skillpoints or what? Sounds very stupid...

Why ? Still 32-14= 18 points left for 7 7 4 for 31. it's 7-7-7
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Torp on February 21, 2011, 05:26:25 pm
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 9
Agility: 33
Hit points: 44
Converted: 14
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 3
Shield: 0
Athletics: 3
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 11
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 198
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

speed is important


or this one:

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 24
Agility: 24
Hit points: 59
Converted: 26
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 2
Shield: 0
Athletics: 2
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 1
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 118
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Xant on February 21, 2011, 05:26:56 pm
well bl0rk if you want an effective build you should definitely not do anything urlukur suggests. just go with my first post, yo.

edit: don't go with what torp suggests either, 40 agi is where it's at.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Bl0rk on February 21, 2011, 05:37:57 pm
As I saw you already fighting I think I can count on your suggestions, I will go for 21/18.

Thanks  8-)
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Marblecake on February 21, 2011, 06:57:26 pm
Bl0rk, don't listen to Xant, he's trolling the shit out of you  :mrgreen:

On topic: I think Phyrex uses 18 str 21 agi with 7 ath and 7wm.
I've copied that build and it has done wonders to my noobishness.







I'm still very noobish tho  :D
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Xant on February 21, 2011, 06:59:42 pm
PHYREX IS A NUUUBBB
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Punisher on February 21, 2011, 08:01:22 pm
18/23 (18/24 at 31).

You'll have 6 PS 6 ATH 7 WM at 30 but the extra 3 agi is worth it in my opinion and you only lose 1 ath, but the difference between 6 and 7 ath is too little to make it worth it, and you get a slight speed increase for each extra AGI point anyway. I doubt you will duel in heavy armor, so IF is useless.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Bl0rk on February 21, 2011, 10:18:16 pm
Ok, when you guys say Xant tells shit, I believe you  :D

18/23 (18/24 at 31).

You'll have 6 PS 6 ATH 7 WM at 30 but the extra 3 agi is worth it in my opinion and you only lose 1 ath, but the difference between 6 and 7 ath is too little to make it worth it, and you get a slight speed increase for each extra AGI point anyway. I doubt you will duel in heavy armor, so IF is useless.

Will go for this, thanks  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Babelfish on February 21, 2011, 10:46:46 pm
18/15 and your set. Anything above is a luxury. 
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Kalam on February 21, 2011, 10:49:26 pm
24/15.

You really don't need more speed.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Bl0rk on February 21, 2011, 10:55:12 pm
18/15 and your set. Anything above is a luxury.

Maybe, but what should I do with alle the skill points? Ironflesh seems to be very unnecessary when I don't use a heavy armor. It's a good way to convert them and to get extra attributes, isn't it?
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Z_E_N on February 21, 2011, 10:59:22 pm
Depending on the weapon, you actually don't really need much wpf.

On my iron staff build, I have 9 AGI and I can often outspam other 2h/polearm.

Just want to toss this out there for consideration..
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Ache on February 21, 2011, 10:59:59 pm
Give a fuck about the build, just skill some random shit and LEARN HOW TO FIGHT.
Thats much more important than any build.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Babelfish on February 21, 2011, 11:00:18 pm
Maybe, but what should I do with alle the skill points? Ironflesh seems to be very unnecessary when I don't use a heavy armor. It's a good way to convert them and to get extra attributes, isn't it?

Ironflesh's effectiveness depends on your dueling skills, if you never get hit, its a waste of points. If you are mortal like me, Ironflesh 4-7x is better then 1 more in ath (or something else). Even at low-armor its useful.



 
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: zagibu on February 22, 2011, 12:34:33 am
Ironflesh 4 is 2 more in AGI, Ironflesh 7 is 3 more in AGI/STR and 1 more in ATH, WM or PS. I don't think it's worth it, better convert to STR and up PS.

If I'm going to do a 2h build again, I'm going for 2X/18, X meaning as high as I can get (but at least 21). WM 6 and ATH 6 are enough IMO. With a good 2h sword, 6 or 7 PS might make the difference between 2 or 3 hits to kill. It's certainly close to the barrier.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Xant on February 22, 2011, 12:37:06 am
Ironflesh's effectiveness depends on your dueling skills, if you never get hit, its a waste of points. If you are mortal like me, Ironflesh 4-7x is better then 1 more in ath (or something else). Even at low-armor its useful.

Everyone gets hit, so IF is always useful.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Nemeth on February 22, 2011, 02:43:01 am
Well my first two generation builds had always at least 5 points in iron flesh and used mail armor. Now I have 0, still use the same armor and I don't see any difference. I die in the same amounts of hits as always. So unless you're planning on wearing some medium/heavy armor, I don't think there is any reason for putting points into IF.

EDIT: Then again, I have no idea what armor you wanna use ^^
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Bl0rk on February 22, 2011, 03:01:51 pm
EDIT: Then again, I have no idea what armor you wanna use ^^

Vaegir Elite Armor, because of the look  8-) With a weight of 17, is it a medium or a heavy armor?
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Nemeth on February 22, 2011, 04:18:58 pm
17, I'd say it's heavish ^^ With that kind of protection, I guess you will benefit from IF.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Phyrex on February 22, 2011, 04:28:03 pm
18/21 at lvl 31

6 PS - Alright damage.
6 IF  - Survive another hit or a pair of arrows.

7 Ath - This is God-mode, with high enough athletics you can kite around groups of players and run from the zerg-horde when needed.
7 WM - Every point spent into 2h. Hybridization sucks, you'll only kill noobs with 100-130 wfp. My almost dead grandmother can block someone with that speed.

And if you're as mad as me...

18/24 at lvl 34

6 PS
6 IF

8 Ath
8 WM

On the topic of str vs agi and the various skills...

I prefer speed, both weapon speed and run speed above all else. What's the use of massive damage if you never hit anything?

Ps. Xant, no u  :o
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Xant on February 22, 2011, 04:35:00 pm
18/21 at lvl 31

6 PS - Alright damage.
6 IF  - Survive another hit or a pair of arrows.

7 Ath - This is God-mode, with high enough athletics you can kite around groups of players and run from the zerg-horde when needed.
7 WM - Every point spent into 2h. Hybridization sucks, you'll only kill noobs with 100-130 wfp. My almost dead grandmother can block someone with that speed.

And if you're as mad as me...

18/24 at lvl 34

6 PS
6 IF

8 Ath
8 WM

On the topic of str vs agi and the various skills...

I prefer speed, both weapon speed and run speed above all else. What's the use of massive damage if you never hit anything?

Ps. Xant, no u  :o

But the difference between 6 and 7 athletics is so minimal! You can make up for it by wearing a bit lighter armor, putting on your grindface and heirlooming the light armor.

At 6 WM you'll have 155 WPF in 2H, at 7 WM it'll be 164. Unfortunately no one knows what 9 WPF points mean in practice, but since the progression is linear, I think the difference is veeeery minimal.

Ps.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Bl0rk on February 22, 2011, 04:42:18 pm
18/21 at lvl 31

6 PS - Alright damage.
6 IF  - Survive another hit or a pair of arrows.

7 Ath - This is God-mode, with high enough athletics you can kite around groups of players and run from the zerg-horde when needed.
7 WM - Every point spent into 2h. Hybridization sucks, you'll only kill noobs with 100-130 wfp. My almost dead grandmother can block someone with that speed.

And if you're as mad as me...

18/24 at lvl 34

6 PS
6 IF

8 Ath
8 WM

On the topic of str vs agi and the various skills...

I prefer speed, both weapon speed and run speed above all else. What's the use of massive damage if you never hit anything?

Ps. Xant, no u  :o

Problem is, that I'm going to retire at 31 again, so where is the use of a level 31 build for me?
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Phyrex on February 22, 2011, 04:45:07 pm
But the difference between 6 and 7 athletics is so minimal! You can make up for it by wearing a bit lighter armor, putting on your grindface and heirlooming the light armor.

At 6 WM you'll have 155 WPF in 2H, at 7 WM it'll be 164. Unfortunately no one knows what 9 WPF points mean in practice, but since the progression is linear, I think the difference is veeeery minimal.

Ps.

(click to show/hide)

I must disagree, I noticed a differense when I had 8 athletics instead of 7 while using coat of plates and alot more when using my ninja set. Yes, I guess you could use lesser armor and heirloom it, but personally, I like to keep alot of different sets, so I can't just heirloom one set. :P

Barely any differense on 6 or 7 wm, yes, but still noticable along with the point in athletics, this is a given skill to take anyhow.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Xant on February 22, 2011, 04:49:25 pm
I must disagree, I noticed a differense when I had 8 athletics instead of 7 while using coat of plates and alot more when using my ninja set. Yes, I guess you could use lesser armor and heirloom it, but personally, I like to keep alot of different sets, so I can't just heirloom one set. :P

Barely any differense on 6 or 7 wm, yes, but still noticable along with the point in athletics, this is a given skill to take anyhow.

Hmm, well, I was all for 21 agi but I did a naked run test with Siiem on the duel server and he was faster than me only by such a ridiculously little margin that I was less than impressed... though at the time I had 20 agi, 6 athletics and he had 21 agi, 7 athletics - so I'd be a bit slower with 2 less agi. Maybe the benefits are different with heavier armor, though?

Quote
Hybridization sucks, you'll only kill noobs with 100-130 wfp. My almost dead grandmother can block someone with that speed.

And about this, your dead grandmother would sadly be one of the better cRPG players :lol:
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Phyrex on February 22, 2011, 04:50:30 pm
Problem is, that I'm going to retire at 31 again, so where is the use of a level 30 build for me?

When I grind I pick the least populated server and completely dominate it, that gives me x5 90% of the time. Cookie-cutter build+skill equals win and win equals x5! :P

As for when trying to hit lvl 31...

I tend to get 9 str first... so I can use my katana, then grind up to 15 agi, after that 15str and then 21 agi and then 18 str!
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Bobthehero on February 22, 2011, 06:46:17 pm
Bobthehero_BRD



Strength   28   
Agility   9   


One Handed   130   [7 WPF cost]

Ironflesh   9   
Power Strike   9   
Shield   3   
Athletics   3   
Riding   0   
Horse Archery   0   
Power Draw   0   
Power Throw   0   
Weapon master *   3   


Wearing plate and one shotting many little bunnies.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Marblecake on February 22, 2011, 07:55:22 pm
But one-shotting many little bunnies isn't the point, is it?

I mean, the idea is to have a build that lends itself to quick, skilful play, good against even the best duelists, right?

I really like Phyrex's build, but I made one tiny mistake...I put 6 points into PT instead of IF, which I'm now regretting :(

Ah well, the little Hobbit is still quite good with his 2h =)
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Bobthehero on February 23, 2011, 06:02:06 am
Little bunnies= everyone with more agi than you :P and many of them is just of saying you can duel more than once in 1 life
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: zagibu on February 23, 2011, 07:38:05 pm
You can have this at lvl 30:
(click to show/hide)

Maybe shift some skill points, if you need more WPF, but I wouldn't do it. 148 is plenty IMO. With IF 5, you get to 63 HP, which should help to survive two hits from some guys at least.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Vibe on February 24, 2011, 12:05:22 pm
I'll say this, 7 athletics, peasant armor and a 2 hander (with decent WPF) is freaking crazy.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Thomek on February 24, 2011, 01:59:12 pm
I think its all about how much STR you really need..

From my experience 15 STR with a normal katana is enough to 2 shot most players. With a masterwork katana 12 STR is enough.
Theres no point in taking 95% of someones life out with the first hit. you still need 2 hits :-)
Of course all this depends on the enemy armor and IF, but I'm talking average usefulness.

My last gen had 12 STR, and no throwing, no IF. You are made of paper with little room for mistake, but that's how I like it. The 9 athletics give a lot of room for dancing around, choosing your battles, and being where you are "not supposed to be yet" in the battle. Also, dodging projectiles becomes much easier, archers miss you because they lead their shots behind you etc etc.. Basically: Freedom to control your situation in battle.

You also safely know that almost no-one can outspam you, and you can force 1vs1 situations even fighting multiple opponents.

Now I'm going with a 15/21 build with 5 pthrow, and already I have much more "stand and fight" situations, dodging is much harder etc etc..

Of course, you might want 15 str to use a better sword than the katana..
In the end the High Agi build lends itself best to light armor as they are beneficial to each other, both working towards speed.

If you plan on using heavier armor, IF pays off much more as armor makes those HP last longer.

Heavy armor is friends with STR and IF (To a point. More than 18-21 str is wasted as you 2 shot almost everyone anyway)
Light armor is friends with AGI (To the point where you need 3-4 strikes to kill anyone, getting glances etc..)

PS: Also i might be jaded, as I always always go for headshots in battle.. All this depends on your skill, your ping, if you have an accurate mouse etc.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: zagibu on February 24, 2011, 05:17:10 pm
Well, it depends on what you consider as average, Thomek, but with 15 STR 5 PS 150 WPF and katana you won't take out another 15 str guy with 40 armor in two hits on average. You will do 23 damage on average against this guy. Masterwork katana and 12 STR 4 PS 150 WPF will also not be enough (24.5 damage on average).
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Spawny on February 24, 2011, 05:33:56 pm
Well, it depends on what you consider as average, Thomek, but with 15 STR 5 PS 150 WPF and katana you won't take out another 15 str guy with 40 armor in two hits on average. You will do 23 damage on average against this guy. Masterwork katana and 12 STR 4 PS 150 WPF will also not be enough (24.5 damage on average).

Speedbonus mate.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: zagibu on February 24, 2011, 07:20:47 pm
Yeah, okay, but 40 armor is also a bit low. I'd wager average armor is higher, probably around 45. And I'm not sure if str 15 is average, many ppl go for at least 18 nowadays, so that's 3 HP more, or if some points in IF, even more. I still expect him to require 3 hits on average. But then again, if he hits the head...
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Bobthehero on February 25, 2011, 03:32:08 am
Its another speed vs damage debate, I personally one shotted so many with a stab from my long espada that I am never going to have less than 9 ps on a 30 lvl build.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Thomek on February 25, 2011, 05:04:04 am
There are many factors involved, and I do think average armor is a bit lower than 45.. 40 is probably optimistic, considering there are lots of peasants, ninjas, money-savers, archers around. Of course a well equipped high level infantry might have more, but I'm talking average here.

Anyway, this is my "feel" in the end. There are so many factors involved that I trust my soon 1 year experience with crpg more than the stats. But anyway.. my goal is to 2 shot my opponents in my builds, not 1 shot them or 3 shot them. But.. yeah .. headshots!
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Xant on February 25, 2011, 05:10:57 am
Average armor is about 45-60. Anything below and you won't have to worry about them.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: zagibu on February 25, 2011, 10:49:15 pm
Yeah, I don't really count peasants, because they die in 1 hit anyway. I'm talking about level 24+ players. I'd say more than half of them uses at least heraldric mail and mail mittens.

But you are right, sometimes stats are misleading.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Punisher on February 26, 2011, 12:08:51 am
I am currently using the classsic 18/21 level 30 build with 6PS,7ATH,7WM and 3 Shield. For the next retirement I was thinking to convert those shield points and go for a 21/20 level 30 build with 7PS, 6ATH,6WM. The question is if it's worth getting 1 extra PS at the expense of 1ATH and 1WM. I use light-medium gear and german greatsword.
Title: Re: Dueling build?
Post by: Patricia on February 26, 2011, 06:47:23 pm
I say sacrifice some WM as it's not really all that useful past 2-3 points at this point.