cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Black Wind on December 19, 2011, 02:53:58 am

Title: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Black Wind on December 19, 2011, 02:53:58 am
Read this before you try to flame me.

Okay, so. I know all you players out there won't like this concept, but it's necessary. The arrows in-game travel at around one-third of the velocity of arrows in real life. I sm
Not saying we make them faster by a multiple of three, but perhaps  a fifth/quarter of their current speed should be added on to the projectile.

/fireproof suit on
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Joker86 on December 19, 2011, 03:17:26 am
Did you just post "real life" in the suggestion corner, concerning ingame balancing?

Well, then I demand plate to protect as well against arrows as in real life. I want my plate armour to have protection 250.

 :P
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Korgoth on December 19, 2011, 03:19:45 am
Well, then I demand plate to protect as well against arrows as in real life. I want my plate armour to have protection 250.

lol My friend who loves plate always complains about that :D

"Wow arrow just penetrated my armour! Unrealistic!!!"
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Black Wind on December 19, 2011, 05:49:45 am
Did you just post "real life" in the suggestion corner, concerning ingame balancing?

Well, then I demand plate to protect as well against arrows as in real life. I want my plate armour to have protection 250.

 :P


Bodkin arrows were made for this.
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Joker86 on December 19, 2011, 06:03:51 am
On ranges of about 25 to 50m... if you are lucky... I could live with this  :wink:
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Black Wind on December 19, 2011, 06:24:41 am
On ranges of about 25 to 50m... if you are lucky... I could live with this  :wink:

Plate only got that good in the 16th century anyway... The same period when early firearms were implemented in warfare
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Paul on December 19, 2011, 09:55:38 am
The arrows in-game travel at around one-third of the velocity of arrows in real life.

That's wrong. We did some research and remodeled current arrow speed after historical projectile velocity with historical bows using war arrows. Bows today achieve higher speeds thanks to new materials.

ingame_velocity_in_m_per_s = item_kinds_shoot_speed * sqrt((PD * 0.12) + 1.0) * 1.2
{PD capped at bow diff+4}
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Loki on December 19, 2011, 10:19:48 am
the accurancy is what I have the biggest problem with honestly, which is the main reason I gave archery up.  With 160 wpf aiming for people's heads was useless, even at pointblank range.
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 19, 2011, 10:58:02 am
Only thing that needs to be done is a very slight speedbuff for longbow and a small nerf in damage or speed or accuracy for rusbow. Rest is fine^^
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Tomas on December 19, 2011, 03:48:57 pm
Most of the balance issues and complaints/suggestions come about because of the PD system.  People look at bows, then look at crossbows and then obviously try to compare them.

Change the PD bonuses so that they up your speed/hold time with a bow, whilst removing the accuracy nerf and damage/arrow speed bonuses and you will be able to more easily compare bows and crossbows which if they truely are balanced people will be able to see.

It also makes sense.  The current system of using a longbow works like this

PD5 = damn i'm not strong enough :(
PD6 = Yeah, it works! I can now use my 140lb Longbow
PD7 = Wow my 140lb Longbow has just morphed into a 161 lb Longbow!
PD8 = Damn! Where did this 195lb longbow come from.  Its amazing

A more realistic system would be
PD5 = damn i'm not strong enough :(
PD6 = Yeah, it works! I can now use my 140lb Longbow but its a bit of a strain and takes some time for the reticule to get to its smallest and it doesn't stay their for long
PD7 = This is getting a bit easier now, the reticule gets to its smallest a bit quicker and stays there a bit longer
PD8 = Now we're talking, i'm strong enough to pull the bow back quite quickly so that the reticule gets to its smallest nice and quick and then I have a decent amount of time to pick a target.
PD_bow_requirement_+4 = min time for reticule to get to its smallest and max time that it stays there.

This system would encorage bow users to go beyond their bows PD difficulty to get the longest time to aim and therefore make it easier.  This means people will either stick with low PD/damage bows or really sacrifice Agility/speed.  Good bow users meanwhile might accept the shorter time they have to aim & fire which will give them a nice reward for their skill.

This would also open the way for a few new bows.  Same models but a PD 5 longbow and a PD 7 longbow would give some more options for people and mean they can customixe their appearance a bit more.
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 19, 2011, 06:23:44 pm
So and where comes wpf in your system?

What you suggest is that powerdraw is increasing the time you can aim AND your drawspeed. This is ridiculous.


Drawing your bow stronger doesn't make you a more accurate archer :/

Actually it makes your shots harder.
And I don't think you would be able to hold it longer, because the more you draw, the faster your are exhausted from drawing it ;)
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Okkam on December 19, 2011, 07:46:02 pm
What you suggest is that powerdraw is increasing the time you can aim AND your drawspeed. This is ridiculous.

This is not ridiculous. PD in native works this way.

Also - swinging with your sword harder do not make your swings faster, with your logic PS must decrease melee wpf too.
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 19, 2011, 08:47:59 pm
You just supported what I said I guess :/


What he wants is that PD makes you draw faster and lets you aim longer, what I don't want

You say that PS doesn't make you hit faster, so why should PD make you draw faster?   *confused*



And please, do not try to compare native to crpg^^   Native archery is soooo damn unrealistic that it shouldn't even be in people's minds here
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Jarlek on December 20, 2011, 03:37:36 am
That's wrong. We did some research and remodeled current arrow speed after historical projectile velocity with historical bows using war arrows. Bows today achieve higher speeds thanks to new materials.

ingame_velocity_in_m_per_s = item_kinds_shoot_speed * sqrt((PD * 0.12) + 1.0) * 1.2
{PD capped at bow diff+4}
HAH! Formula added to the wiki! Your secrets are now categorized properly and made available for everyone! Muhahahah!

xD

Thanks Paul.
http://wiki.c-rpg.net/index.php?title=Archery
There it is if you wanna see it.

I have a problem though. I can't make the formula into a nicely displayed way on the wiki. I tried the "math formula" thingie, but I couldn't make it work. Could anyone make it more readable, please?
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Black Wind on December 20, 2011, 05:04:57 am
ingame_velocity_in_m_per_s = item_kinds_shoot_speed * sqrt((PD * 0.12) + 1.0) * 1.2
{PD capped at bow diff+4}

=

Arrow speed in meters per second = bows shoot speed  x  square root of ((power draw  x  0.12) + 1.0)  x  1.2

The power draw is capped at bow difficulty + 4
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Tomas on December 20, 2011, 01:18:55 pm
So and where comes wpf in your system?

What you suggest is that powerdraw is increasing the time you can aim AND your drawspeed. This is ridiculous.


Drawing your bow stronger doesn't make you a more accurate archer :/

Actually it makes your shots harder.


WPF controls the minimum size of the reticule.  PD just controls how quickly it gets to that minimum and how long it stays there.  If you have lots of PD and 1 wpf then you'll just be able to hold your really bad aim for a long time, which is a little pointless.  Wpf will also still be effected by armour as it is now.

I didn't mention wpf in my suggestion because it isn't changing.  Figured that would be obvious but i stand corrected

And I don't think you would be able to hold it longer, because the more you draw, the faster your are exhausted from drawing it ;)

Maybe you should think about what you just wrote here.  Are you telling me that you can't take a kids toy bow with a 2 lb draw (random guess :D) and stand there for 5 minutes without getting tired?  The whole point of this changed system is that the in game bows are always the same draw weight, they don't magically add 20lbs to the weight just because you have extra PD.
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: _Sebastian_ on December 20, 2011, 01:52:44 pm
What you suggest is that powerdraw is increasing the time you can aim AND your drawspeed. This is ridiculous.
At the moment PD over 5 is balanced in the opposite way.
PD reduces your wpf, so it decreases the accuracy, the drawspeed and the aimtime.

But I dont want to invest my skillpoints to get any disadvantages.
PD shouldn't reduce my wpf, but it also shouldn't rise wpf.

I hope the devs will rebalance PD like PS(it doesn't reduce wpf),
because its unfair the way it is.
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 20, 2011, 02:20:14 pm

PD shouldn't reduce my wpf, but it also shouldn't rise wpf.


I think archery would get a megabuff if not for the reduce of wpf, but maybe it could be slightly less?

Having PD not reducing any wpf would result in 100 of 8-9 pd archers with about 5 weaponsmaster being as accurate as a guy with 7 or 8 wm :/
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: _Sebastian_ on December 20, 2011, 03:19:44 pm
Quote from: Gisbert_of_Thuringia
I think archery would get a megabuff if not for the reduce of wpf, but maybe it could be slightly less?
A megabuff?
...how could it be a buff if the accuracy stays like it was with less PD?

It would be funny to see the reactions of melee players, if this would happen to Power Strike(it would reduce wpf) :wink:

Quote from: Gisbert_of_Thuringia
Having PD not reducing any wpf would result in 100 of 8-9 pd archers with about 5 weaponsmaster being as accurate as a guy with 7 or 8 wm :/
Not really.
2 or 3 more weaponmaster are 20 or 30wpf and this is a great buff to the accuracy.

And I dont think that many archers are full str builds(but me)...
You get many gameplay disadvantages when you are an str archer;
- bad aiming, because of less skillpoints in wm
- no ablility to flee, because you cant invest any point in ath
- very slow draw and less aimtime, also because of less points in wm

So I don't think that Power Draw should reduce wpf, because it makes str archer builds much more unplayable.
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 20, 2011, 08:54:11 pm
What I mean is, that, if PD does not reduce wpf any longer, less wpf are needed to be accurate. So you can go for maybe 8 PD and have 6 WM, which will then be enough to be accurate, although you have high PD.
That would be a big buff to archery and would cause in hundreds of players whining on the forum, because every light and medium armour would probably be a oneshot.

As an archer we still have an advantage of being away from the target we attack. So you can't really compare it with PS and therefore PS shouldn't work in the same way as PD
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Tomas on December 20, 2011, 11:47:28 pm
What I mean is, that, if PD does not reduce wpf any longer, less wpf are needed to be accurate. So you can go for maybe 8 PD and have 6 WM, which will then be enough to be accurate, although you have high PD.
That would be a big buff to archery and would cause in hundreds of players whining on the forum, because every light and medium armour would probably be a oneshot.

As an archer we still have an advantage of being away from the target we attack. So you can't really compare it with PS and therefore PS shouldn't work in the same way as PD

Reducing the base accuracy of the bows would be the obvious solution to this.  Any change to archery mechanics would require re-balancing of the bows.
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Paul on December 21, 2011, 12:05:54 am
Without the cRPG wpf reduction from PD, each level of PD would give as much accuracy precision as +20 archery wpf if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 21, 2011, 12:09:19 am
That sounds nuts considering how much MW gives (or rather, how little).
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: El_Infante on December 21, 2011, 12:42:34 am
Without the cRPG wpf reduction from PD, each level of PD would give as much accuracy precision as +20 archery wpf if I remember correctly.

So with 7PD I have worst accuracy than the same wpf as 6PD? It's not fair. Do the same with power strike.
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Whalen207 on December 21, 2011, 12:59:41 am
So and where comes wpf in your system?

What you suggest is that powerdraw is increasing the time you can aim AND your drawspeed. This is ridiculous.


Drawing your bow stronger doesn't make you a more accurate archer :/

Actually it makes your shots harder.
And I don't think you would be able to hold it longer, because the more you draw, the faster your are exhausted from drawing it ;)

Agility? What's that?

[rage]
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Cup1d on December 21, 2011, 01:24:43 am
So with 7PD I have worst accuracy than the same wpf as 6PD? It's not fair. Do the same with power strike.

Also, you'll have worst accuracy with MW bows.

Because a good part of the item balancer team is boring.
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Rumblood on December 21, 2011, 06:18:32 am
That's wrong. We did some research and remodeled current arrow speed after historical projectile velocity with historical bows using war arrows. Bows today achieve higher speeds thanks to new materials.

ingame_velocity_in_m_per_s = item_kinds_shoot_speed * sqrt((PD * 0.12) + 1.0) * 1.2
{PD capped at bow diff+4}

Its a proven fact that modern researchers are not as good as their ancient predecessors at actually making those ancient items work at anywhere near the same efficiency.

What you mean is that you guessed at what researchers think were able to be obtained based upon amateur skill sets (both in weapon creation and weapon usage).

That would be a bit like me weaving a fishing net from grass and calculating the population of an ancient seaside village based upon what I was able to catch in my own feeble attempt at creating one.

Composite bows from thousands of years BEFORE this time period were capable of killing at 300 yards and could fly 600 yards. There is no way a projectile as slow as you've depicted will fly that far before falling to the ground.

I realize you feel you did due diligence, but you just made that numbers do whatever it was you wanted them to do, and then went to try to find "historical justification" after the fact, without bothering to apply the SAME style of realism to other classes. Like Xbows. Their range should be at the shortest bow range, instead they fly bullet speed across the entire map.
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 21, 2011, 10:16:13 am
Its a proven fact that modern researchers are not as good as their ancient predecessors at actually making those ancient items work at anywhere near the same efficiency.

What you mean is that you guessed at what researchers think were able to be obtained based upon amateur skill sets (both in weapon creation and weapon usage).

That would be a bit like me weaving a fishing net from grass and calculating the population of an ancient seaside village based upon what I was able to catch in my own feeble attempt at creating one.

Composite bows from thousands of years BEFORE this time period were capable of killing at 300 yards and could fly 600 yards. There is no way a projectile as slow as you've depicted will fly that far before falling to the ground.

I realize you feel you did due diligence, but you just made that numbers do whatever it was you wanted them to do, and then went to try to find "historical justification" after the fact, without bothering to apply the SAME style of realism to other classes. Like Xbows. Their range should be at the shortest bow range, instead they fly bullet speed across the entire map.

+1
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Paul on December 21, 2011, 12:34:39 pm
Like Xbows. Their range should be at the shortest bow range, instead they fly bullet speed across the entire map.

You might want to discuss that "fact" with DaveUKR. Also, nice strawman with the net.
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: _Sebastian_ on December 21, 2011, 01:25:12 pm
Without the cRPG wpf reduction from PD, each level of PD would give as much accuracy precision as +20 archery wpf if I remember correctly.
Ok.
Reduce wpf by 20(or what ever) for each PD, so that the accuracy is still the same.
But the current system is not fair, because the wpf reduction is to high.

So with 7PD I have worst accuracy than the same wpf as 6PD? It's not fair. Do the same with power strike.
1+
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: YnScN on January 01, 2012, 09:59:45 pm
I didnt know that you lose wpf for each PD. That makes no sense at all. What, i made some pushups and forget how to aim ?
I have started this game 4 weeks ago, I dont know what you did to that archers but lets face it, If you dont have an amazing desire to be an archer, you will figure out that melees run the show. PAM, you have no reeason to be an archer.
I have never seen an archer on the top of the list, i know melees dont have to pay that projectile repair for each round.
So, improve that archery somehow you can.
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Teeth on January 01, 2012, 10:33:05 pm
I didnt know that you lose wpf for each PD. That makes no sense at all. What, i made some pushups and forget how to aim ?
I have started this game 4 weeks ago, I dont know what you did to that archers but lets face it, If you dont have an amazing desire to be an archer, you will figure out that melees run the show. PAM, you have no reeason to be an archer.
I have never seen an archer on the top of the list, i know melees dont have to pay that projectile repair for each round.
So, improve that archery somehow you can.
I agree that archery is kinda hard. But you have to think that you pretty much reach the top of your archery game after like ten hours of getting used to the drop and velocity and drawspeed. Most melees that you see running the show have practiced the art for hundreds of hours, melee is more effective in the end, but is harder in the beginning.

You as a new player, try archery and infantry I think archery would enable you to be more effective, there is just less room for improvement as an archer than as a melee player.

I agree that a seasoned melee player like myself is much less effective as an archer.

Still, even though in the end the archer has a little less power than the top melee, you still see a shitton of archers. No reasons to be an archer you say? Then don't, youre playing a game with an unique melee combat system, why the hell would you go shoot like in every other game? Archery is hugely popular, thats why it shouldnt be so powerful. A buff for archery will increase the archer numbers even more to gamebreaking levels. If there are more archers, they need to be less powerful, otherwise they break the ranged/melee/cav balance.

Although I have no idea why everyone likes archery so much, lets say almost all despised archery like me. In that case archery could be made twice as powerful without archery becoming overpowered.

Oh, and melee have plenty of repairs too, maybe you should consider not using the most expensive arrows and bows. The repairs on archers are probably also quite high due to the immense popularity of the class.

I have seen scoreboard topping archers, they are called Jambi. Dunno why but this guy seems to be twice as good as the second best archer. Maybe all you other archers should try harder to become as good as he is. Because you can be awfully powerful as an archer. Last time I've seen him play, he topped the boards for like 3 maps in a row. Also, archery is less kill focused than melee, you deal damage to lots of different players that get away before you can kill them, kills do not fully represent power.

tl;dr
Archery is easy to master, melee always has room for improvement. Individual archery should be weak, because popularity would otherwise break the ranged/cav/melee balance. Melee have repairs too. Jambi.

Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Jambi on January 02, 2012, 07:50:05 pm
(click to show/hide)

Im sowwy

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Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on January 02, 2012, 08:00:19 pm



I have seen scoreboard topping archers, they are called Jambi. Dunno why but this guy seems to be twice as good as the second best archer. Maybe all you other archers should try harder to become as good as he is. Because you can be awfully powerful as an archer. Last time I've seen him play, he topped the boards for like 3 maps in a row. Also, archery is less kill focused than melee, you deal damage to lots of different players that get away before you can kill them, kills do not fully represent power.


Don't overestimate his skills ;)

He is a very good archer, but there are several archers out there who are as good as him  :rolleyes:


@YnScN:  There are several archers that can top the scoreboards or be among the upper 5. Just because you didn't see any, doesn't mean there are none^^
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Adalwulf on January 03, 2012, 08:27:20 am
Don't overestimate his skills ;)

He is a very good archer, but there are several archers out there who are as good as him  :rolleyes:


@YnScN:  There are several archers that can top the scoreboards or be among the upper 5. Just because you didn't see any, doesn't mean there are none^^

+1 there are many good archers that i've seen.

P.S FIX THE LONGBOW ACCURACY WPF IS WAY TOO HIGH FOR IT RAWRRRRRRR I GOTTA BE LVL 34 TO USE IT PROPERLY WTF IS THIS SHIT OMG
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on January 03, 2012, 08:33:20 am


P.S FIX THE LONGBOW ACCURACY WPF IS WAY TOO HIGH FOR IT RAWRRRRRRR I GOTTA BE LVL 34 TO USE IT PROPERLY WTF IS THIS SHIT OMG

I would prefer a very slight drawspeed buff :/   What do I care about accuracy with 174 wpf?   :lol:
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Adalwulf on January 03, 2012, 09:17:46 am
I would prefer a very slight drawspeed buff :/   What do I care about accuracy with 174 wpf?   :lol:

accuracy is the most important for a longbow. I'd take accuracy over draw speed anytime.
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on January 03, 2012, 09:26:01 am
accuracy is the most important for a longbow. I'd take accuracy over draw speed anytime.

In my opinion the only accuracy problem with the longbow derives from the speed delay, means your reticule is smallest before your bow is fully drawn, thus making it fairly inaccurate :/

I know many people share the opinion about the delay. Maybe a slight speedbuff would also please your accuracy demand?^^
Title: Re: Buff arrow velocity
Post by: Inkompetent on January 03, 2012, 06:34:43 pm
Also, archery is less kill focused than melee, you deal damage to lots of different players that get away before you can kill them, kills do not fully represent power.

People seem to always refuse thinking about this (I wouldn't call it forgetting. People just don't care, and look at that pointless K/D ratio instead).

An archer (or crossbowman) rarely gets to shoot the same target twice unless it is isolated and without close cover, or stubbornly stand to take another one in the face. People tend to start jinxing or run away the moment they realize *they* are under fire, and often one as ranged is forced to pick another target due to the previous one getting into a melee where it's impossible to get a clear shot (too many fighters, or too long distance).

Ranged generally wound many, but kill few. Not to mention that dehorsing cav is one of the biggest responsibilities of ranged, and that's not visible in stats either. Only the very best archers actually rack up any noticable number of kills.