cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Rebelyell on December 18, 2011, 02:23:26 pm

Title: Stamina
Post by: Rebelyell on December 18, 2011, 02:23:26 pm
add stamina to that game
its pain in ass when you have to fight some uber spame with no chance to hit him or cont attack coz of his stupid spead with some big loong weapon
stamina makes him wach his crazy spam coz he can go out of treght really fast



24/7 spammers we don't want you anymore!!!!!!

anyway stamina for chores should be awesome tooo
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Memento_Mori on December 18, 2011, 02:55:53 pm
Stamina would probably be a cool thing, but sounds difficult to add in.


To deal with spammers try blocking. If for some reason you've messed your build up and are unable to counter attack ever then rely on team mates, block and backpeddle bringing your opponent into your allies range.

Unless he's spamming a fast long weapon with crush through on every attack direction (doesn't exist afaik) you can block it.


Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: zagibu on December 18, 2011, 06:02:31 pm
It has been suggested many times, but most cRPG players don't like a system that "takes their freedom away to swing whenever they want". I don't know what this means, it's what someone told me when I suggested a stamina system some months ago. I guess most people just like spam.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Skysong on December 18, 2011, 06:40:14 pm
i'd like stamina but i don't think it will be added.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Vodner on December 18, 2011, 07:06:34 pm
Quote
its pain in ass when you have to fight some uber spame with no chance to hit him or cont attack coz of his stupid spead with some big loong weapon
Even with 1 wpf, you still have time to counter-attack (unless you're something silly like a long maul).

If you get castored or otherwise double-swung, you messed up your footwork or you waited too long to counter-attack.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Konrax on December 18, 2011, 07:17:37 pm
I think if we had a stamina system it should work something like this:

Stamina is based on athletics + agility (similar to how health is calculated)

Each swing / block / draw of a bow ect ect uses stamina.

When your stamina reaches 50% you start to lose that same % of wpf.

So with 0 stamina you can still swing block shoot ect but it will be 50% slower then normal.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Siboire on December 18, 2011, 07:21:16 pm
Even with 1 wpf, you still have time to counter-attack (unless you're something silly like a long maul).

If you get castored or otherwise double-swung, you messed up your footwork or you waited too long to counter-attack.

not necessarly true, some weapons with an agility build (mostly one handed left side swings) can be spammed easily with it's early hit detection. I don't do it myself cuz it's cheesy as hell but I could with an agi build and my elite spammy-tard. My clan mate was doing it with an arabian cavalry sword, just spamming left side swing with little to no footwork and would kill a lot that way, he was laughing his ass off.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on December 18, 2011, 08:05:12 pm
Sure, why not. Also make it so heavier weapons and armor are hit radically more by the stamina effects and recover stamina slower and high wpf characters conserve more stamina because they're trained in fighting with their weapon and therefore know how to strike and consume less energy. I mean, accuracy for the win.

On a more serious note. I kinda like being able to defeat multiple opponents. With stamina, my character gets tired before I manage to kill all of them.

Spam happens because the enemy has a heavier weapon and stuns yours or because you have terrible timing/footwork. I do just fine with my morning star swinging black plate wearing spamming full strength character. I always have time to hit back and if I fail I don't really care because it takes 7 hits to kill me anyway.

This basically:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

To explain: The guy who gets his ass kicked as terrible timing, and the other one has better footwork.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Vodner on December 18, 2011, 08:05:51 pm
Quote
not necessarly true, some weapons with an agility build (mostly one handed left side swings) can be spammed easily with it's early hit detection. I don't do it myself cuz it's cheesy as hell but I could with an agi build and my elite spammy-tard. My clan mate was doing it with an arabian cavalry sword, just spamming left side swing with little to no footwork and would kill a lot that way, he was laughing his ass off.
Even with 174 wpf vs 1 wpf, you can still counter. Double left swings on one-handers are also counterable - move in the same direction as your opponent's swing (away from the blade), and start your swing so that it hits almost immediately after starting.

The only players stamina would help are the people who can't counter castors and other double swings. This would nerf several people who are capable of taking down many opponents quickly (watch Balbaroth take down a group of guys for an example of this). This would effectively nerf individual player skill.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Fartface on December 19, 2011, 12:47:23 pm
15/27 build 178 wpp.
As mutch as it's lame i can pretty mutch spam evry wep with the exceptionery of katana or any realy fast 1hander.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: zagibu on December 19, 2011, 04:17:49 pm
The only players stamina would help are the people who can't counter castors and other double swings.

The only players stamina would hurt are hiltslash abusers and lag-armored figure-eight-running flamberge-rightswing-spammers.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 19, 2011, 07:21:57 pm
Just adding stamina would not solve anything. You would need than some kind of system that mimics real life in a way that, for example 120cm sword cant be blocked with archers regular hammer, like the case is now in crpg.

I think we will need to wait Mount and Blade 2 for this kind of system. Thing is, there is a chance there won't be one. I'm inclined to believe that after seeing how Stalker 2 went down the drain because of lack of interest from publishers who feel that pc gaming market is too light to make the planned financial cut.

I think the main issue is that it's really easy to pirate single player PC games, you can't really do that with 360, Wii or PS3 games (not nearly as easily for the general public). 
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Konrax on December 19, 2011, 07:35:07 pm
Skyrim PC sales alone poo'd on every other release this year on any platform.

and single player games are the easiest to pirate.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Zerran on December 19, 2011, 08:43:36 pm
No. Stamina is an ENORMOUS game mechanic that completely changes how fights work, it would be very difficult to balance it in. Also, if you're getting spammed, it's because you have bad timing/footwork, as Khorin said. Instead of asking for a game mechanic to try and help, try working on your timing and footwork. (Serious, friendly suggestion here. Not trying to flame.)

Also,

You would need than some kind of system that mimics real life in a way that, for example 120cm sword cant be blocked with archers regular hammer, like the case is now in crpg.

An archer's hammer would be fine for blocking this irl, but it would require a redirection of the blow, rather than the animation shown of just letting it crash into the hammer.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: zagibu on December 19, 2011, 10:51:28 pm
It's interesting how people always suggest to use skill to counter a game mechanic that doesn't require any: "Yeah, spam is fine, just get better noobs" ™.

I am so tired of this community.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Chris_P_Bacon on December 19, 2011, 11:30:01 pm
Add a stamina bar which decreases with each swing but no negative effects occur if it is empty. This way you can know that you should be dead but you don't have to deal with the consequences.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on December 19, 2011, 11:57:47 pm
It's interesting how people always suggest to use skill to counter a game mechanic that doesn't require any: "Yeah, spam is fine, just get better noobs" ™.

I am so tired of this community.
If you're fighting a spammer and lose, then you're skills are equal or worse than his. If you can't beat him that means that your footwork is significantly worse than his or you can't block, and if you can't block, then you by definition are a spammer. sorry if this sounded a little offensive. Tired and last exams are tomorrow and I'm sitting here studying.

Basically this:
(click to show/hide)
You people seem to be at the "ban post" stage, really.

Also, adding a stamina bar that decreases a set amount every swing regardless of spec and weapon would make agility builds largely unplayable. Because builds built on speed do less damage, i.e. you have to hit the enemy more, i.e. you do less damage and suffer more stamina consequences than other specs. Balancing this would require that agi builds get more stamina or take less stamina per swing while strength build are the opposite. This way both builds can deal equally much damage before the stamina runs out. So essentially this only nerfes anyone that fights against multiple opponents.

I'm just pointing out that this suggestion is here to nerf a specific build. Mainly agi it seems. Because OP seems to complain about being outspammed by long reach weapons with agi builds, other guy wants to nerf one handers that are too fast. OP is probably getting spammed because of polearm stun or weapon stun.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Maximus101 on December 20, 2011, 12:14:43 am
NOO. If you wanna deal with spammers get more agi. Adding this basically gives an advantage to the agi whores, as the amount of stamina they get will be more than other ppl. Also, this would totally ruin duels and stuff.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: JihadistMexican on December 20, 2011, 12:20:58 am
If you can't block a spammer then your "bad."  Saul and Ninja have given arguments that how you can defend against spammers with the right skill.  You (and I) call them spammers cause we cant block for shit. Saul is a great (my old friend) player who can block anything and has no problem if they spam.  Get better and they wont be spammers.

EDIT: and you figured out your tired of this community lol.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: zagibu on December 20, 2011, 12:30:42 am
If you're fighting a spammer and lose, then you're skills are equal or worse than his. If you can't beat him that means that your footwork is significantly worse than his or you can't block, and if you can't block, then you by definition are a spammer. sorry if this sounded a little offensive. Tired and last exams are tomorrow and I'm sitting here studying.

Also, adding a stamina bar that decreases a set amount every swing regardless of spec and weapon would make agility builds largely unplayable. Because builds built on speed do less damage, i.e. you have to hit the enemy more, i.e. you do less damage and suffer more stamina consequences than other specs. Balancing this would require that agi builds get more stamina or take less stamina per swing while strength build are the opposite. This way both builds can deal equally much damage before the stamina runs out. So essentially this only nerfes anyone that fights against multiple opponents.

I'm just pointing out that this suggestion is here to nerf a specific build. Mainly agi it seems. Because OP seems to complain about being outspammed by long reach weapons with agi builds, other guy wants to nerf one handers that are too fast. OP is probably getting spammed because of polearm stun or weapon stun.

I only started to lose against spammers when the hiltslashing bullshit began. And I don't think Ninjas talking about footwork should be taken seriously. High agi chars already have the advantage in duels, they can circle low agi chars by moving to the side and slashing the other direction (forcing the opponent to turn to the other side a bit first, to block the hit), then hit their unprotected side. This is a valid move, as it takes skill to do so. What doesn't take skill is to swing left and right continuously like a moron. Unfortunately, this is also the best move against low agi chars, because the slashes will connect earlier than the victim's backswings, because of HILTDERP.

Even if we take hiltslash out, spam is a problem, because a dude who can't block at all can still rise to top ten in scoreboard by spamming a long 2h/pole.

What's making hiltslash worse is the armor "rebalance" by Paul that reduced glancing. Now it's possible to start a swing facing 150° away from your full plated opponent and still hurt him. Then follow it up with two hiltslashes, and the knight is dead.

Anyway, to get back on topic, agi chars already have better footwork and swing speed, with stamina patch (str/weapon weight), they would be able to swing as many times as str chars before running out of stamina. The only difference would be that everyone would have to block a few hits after having attacked for a while, to get the stamina back. People fighting multiple opponents have to block inbetween, anyway, so this situation wouldn't even change at all.

And duels would actually be MORE interesting, because the stamina running out would form some kind of alternating advantage.

Also, thanks for telling me to get better. It's like the most original answer I've ever heard. I might not be as good as Khorin, but I can certainly block regular spammers. This doesn't mean that spam is fine, though. Imagine arrows did 10x as much damage as now. The "solution" to this would be to use a shield. Just because there exists some kind of "solution" doesn't mean it's fine.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Vodner on December 20, 2011, 01:19:28 am
Quote
What doesn't take skill is to swing left and right continuously like a moron. Unfortunately, this is also the best move against low agi chars, because the slashes will connect earlier than the victim's backswings, because of HILTDERP.
What does take skill is starting a hiltslash, watching your opponent, and cancelling or chambering if you see him execute the proper counter.

This is like the people who complain about throws and zoning in Street Fighter.

Quote
The only difference would be that everyone would have to block a few hits after having attacked for a while, to get the stamina back.
Again, this only benefits players with poor footwork. If a player with poor footwork faces off against an opponent with great footwork, then the first player shouldn't get a chance to swing.

The ability to double-left swing on one-handers, hiltslash on 2h, and double-right swing (or right swing then thrust) on polearms raises the skill ceiling of the game. It adds extra elements that you have to watch out for as a player, and it gives you more tools to use against opponents. It keeps fights from devolving into dull 'block attack block' fests, which can easily last over a minute (blocking is fairly easy, and most players can block fairly consistently now - even non-thrust chambers are pretty easy to block most of the time).

If I die to a hiltslash (or far more commonly, a double left swing on a 1h), the only person I'm mad at is myself - because I screwed up. It's no different than when I die from missing my block, by getting my thrust chambered, or by having my opponent momentarily step out of range of my weapon.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: MrShine on December 20, 2011, 02:58:22 am
- agility whoring doesn't make you better at spamming (as Vodner and Khorin already mentioned and frankly I'd take their word for it over yours)
- (as was also mentioned) bad positioning or hesitation is what allows spam to be successful.
- stamina is a bad idea. I mean in general it's an ok idea, but it would fundamentally alter the combat of this game.  I like this game's combat as it is.

I get caught every now and then by a spammer because I tend to hold a lot and I fail at responding quickly enough.  However once I know that someone is a spammer I can very easily counter their strategy.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Final_Boss on December 20, 2011, 04:52:10 am
I'd really love to see this implemented, it would add a whole new and refreshing dynamic to combat and it's something warband should have had hard coded.

I don't really buy the whole "skill stops spam" theory. Spam stops spam.

Long duels are between two players who can have the most spasms with the mouse and keyboard, not between two 'battle hardened' players.

With stamina, you'll still need "skill" to survive but you'll also have to watch your avatar's fatigue levels. It's kind of ridiculous watching two l33t generation 10000 players parry for 3 min, one wielding a stick.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Vodner on December 20, 2011, 05:45:45 am
Quote
I don't really buy the whole "skill stops spam" theory. Spam stops spam.
Really? Please try to spam BigSandwich to death in duel (or Phyrex if you're an EU player). Please report back. I'm eager to hear how this works out for you. If melee combat doesn't involve skill, then you should be able to easily win half of your fights.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: zagibu on December 20, 2011, 12:49:11 pm
What does take skill is starting a hiltslash, watching your opponent, and cancelling or chambering if you see him execute the proper counter.

There is no counter. The only thing a low agi char can do is block, and this doesn't require the hiltslasher to react at all, he can just continue. I wouldn't have a problem with hiltslash, if it was actually difficult to pull off. But it isn't. Which kind of negates your argument that it "raises the skill ceiling".
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Vodner on December 20, 2011, 08:40:35 pm
There is no counter. The only thing a low agi char can do is block, and this doesn't require the hiltslasher to react at all, he can just continue.
Strafe away from the swing, and start your swing close to him. If you're low-ath, that means you're high-powerstrike, and can get away with starting your swing closer than usual without glancing.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: zagibu on December 20, 2011, 08:56:02 pm
Strafe away from the swing, and start your swing close to him. If you're low-ath, that means you're high-powerstrike, and can get away with starting your swing closer than usual without glancing.

Did you just suggest to counter hiltslash with hiltslash?
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Vodner on December 20, 2011, 08:59:01 pm
Did you just suggest to counter hiltslash with hiltslash?
Considering you're just swinging a single time (and that the counter works for 1h, 2h, and polearms, whereas hiltslash is a 2h only thing), then no.

I've played the following builds:
27/12 2h
27/12 polearm
18/21 2h
18/21 polearm
18/21 1h
24/15 1h

With all of these builds, I was able to counter castors. If you can't, you're doing something wrong.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Xant on December 20, 2011, 08:59:58 pm
Basically, Vodner and Khorin have already said everything. The counter to spam is to block once and then attack continuously until one of your attack gets blocked. Usually you only need to block once against spammers.

There is no counter. The only thing a low agi char can do is block, and this doesn't require the hiltslasher to react at all, he can just continue. I wouldn't have a problem with hiltslash, if it was actually difficult to pull off. But it isn't. Which kind of negates your argument that it "raises the skill ceiling".

Like Vodner said, the counter is proper footwork. Failing that, you just block twice in a row, it's very easy to see when someone's gonna hiltslash. And yes, proper hiltslash is pretty difficult to pull off. My problem with hiltslashing is people who think they can do it but can't and I get hit because I overestimated them and held/feinted... but yeaaah, that's just my fault. Hiltslashing is about as hard to pull off properly as it is to counter it.

BTW Vodner: Which 1h build did you like the most?
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Vodner on December 20, 2011, 09:05:47 pm
BTW Vodner: Which 1h build did you like the most?
I personally liked the 18/21 one the most, despite the rage-inducing tendency for my sword to glance on heavy armor if I was even a little off with my footwork.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Xant on December 20, 2011, 09:08:33 pm
I personally liked the 18/21 one the most, despite the rage-inducing tendency for my sword to glance on heavy armor if I was even a little off with my footwork.

Ahah, likewise. Although MW arabian doesn't glance too much - just gotta be careful with right swings.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Zisa on December 20, 2011, 11:58:25 pm
There is no counter. The only thing a low agi char can do is block, and this doesn't require the hiltslasher to react at all, he can just continue. I wouldn't have a problem with hiltslash, if it was actually difficult to pull off. But it isn't. Which kind of negates your argument that it "raises the skill ceiling".
What you mean is, there is no counter for low agi LOW INT characters. I put you in the camp of people determined to make this game chess.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: zagibu on December 21, 2011, 02:01:21 am
Hiltslash is not a 2h only thing. It works best with 2h, but it also works with 1h and pole.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Xant on December 21, 2011, 02:07:00 am
Works as well with 2h and pole, your opponent needs to screw up a lot for it to work properly on 1h. Anyway, hiltslash isn't spam.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: zagibu on December 21, 2011, 08:42:03 pm
Of course not, it's an elite move that raises the skill ceiling. See, I've been properly educated by all the professional players telling me to go practice more, noob that I am.

BTW: I hate chess. Hiltslash is like a chess move, the agi ninja moves from b2 to a3 and defeats the str crutcher. Boring and predictable.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Xant on December 21, 2011, 08:58:52 pm
Of course not, it's an elite move that raises the skill ceiling. See, I've been properly educated by all the professional players telling me to go practice more, noob that I am.

Spot on.