cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: zagibu on February 16, 2011, 11:12:42 pm
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Seriously, a pike doing 24 pierce damage and a fucking 1h sword doing 29? Not to mention that it's so easy to block a pike, as there are only stabs and overheads...
And why exactly is an overhead of my halberd shorter than the swing of a 2h cleaver?
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Pike is good.
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Pike has 26 pierce, is pretty cheap and isn't meant to be great 1vs1 because it's an anti cav support weapon.
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Pike has 26 pierce, is pretty cheap and isn't meant to be great 1vs1 because it's an anti cav support weapon.
Even if it had more damage, it would still not be great in duels, because it's ridiculously easy to block and only whiffs in close combat situations.
I'm not only talking about the pike, but about spear weapons in general. I think the game could be a lot more fun if spears were longer and did more damage, but were even worse in duels. Spear formations could actually become hard to break, possibly needing the use of ranged weapons. Right now, the game is mostly a duel simulator, there is not much actual warfare going on. I think this could be changed, if weapon advantages and disadvantages were more pronounced. Right now, a warspear is just a cheaper and worse 2h sword.
One thing that also bothered me lately is that the shaft of a polearm seems to be able to do as much damage as the head. Poleaxe facehuggers don't seem to whiff very often. That's why you see polearmers fight exactly in the same way as 2h sworders. This would actually be a big advantage of 2h swords, to be able to do damage from very close to medium range. Polearms would be medium to long range. It is a little like this with the polearms that have no sideswings already, but it needs to be like this for poleaxes, hafted blades, hafted maces, etc. too. To compensate, they should get a damage and length buff.
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Ever heard in history about people dueling with spears? I think not, it's a cheap weapon for peasents. Used en masse.
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Well, they can't buff the length unless they modified all the models or made a new animation, which they won't do.
They could lower weapon speed, lower swing damage, and increase thrust damage. I think that is what you are suggesting?
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Ever heard in history about people dueling with spears? I think not, it's a cheap weapon for peasents. Used en masse.
So, you are supporting my suggestions? That spears get more thrust damage, lose swing damage and speed but get longer?
Making the models longer shouldn't be a problem, I can do it, if necessary.
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One thing that also bothered me lately is that the shaft of a polearm seems to be able to do as much damage as the head. Poleaxe facehuggers don't seem to whiff very often. That's why you see polearmers fight exactly in the same way as 2h sworders. This would actually be a big advantage of 2h swords, to be able to do damage from very close to medium range. Polearms would be medium to long range. It is a little like this with the polearms that have no sideswings already, but it needs to be like this for poleaxes, hafted blades, hafted maces, etc. too. To compensate, they should get a damage and length buff.
That's a problem with the warband system. There's no way to correct that, taleworlds tried with the weapon sweet spots and failed.
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That's a problem with the warband system. There's no way to correct that, taleworlds tried with the weapon sweet spots and failed.
They didn't fail, they were just limited by the capacity of the engine. The sweet spot system is still much better than it was before, but there needs to be a lot of improvement.
As for polearms: No, speed, damage and length are fine. Don't fix what isn't broke
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I think thrust damage is far too low across the board for almost all weapons. It seems the rule of thumb used for swords was to make thrust damage 2/3 the value of slash damage, then make it pierce instead of cut. I never understood lowering the damage on thrusts like that because 20 pierce doesn't compare to 30 cut. Even against full black plate armor and gauntlets the pierce attack doesn't catch up in damage (30c or 20p + PS 6 + WPF 130 vs 72 armor = 7 cut or just 4.5 pierce damage on average), yet I'm quite confident being slashed with a sword is easier to survive than being impaled on one. That decision only makes sense to me if piercing attacks get a damage bonus for hitting the head that other weapons don't get.
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I think thrust damage is far too low across the board for almost all weapons. It seems the rule of thumb used for swords was to make thrust damage 2/3 the value of slash damage, then make it pierce instead of cut. I never understood lowering the damage on thrusts like that because 20 pierce doesn't compare to 30 cut. Even against full black plate armor and gauntlets the pierce attack doesn't catch up in damage (30c or 20p + PS 6 + WPF 130 vs 72 armor = 7 cut or just 4.5 pierce damage on average), yet I'm quite confident being slashed with a sword is easier to survive than being impaled on one. That decision only makes sense to me if piercing attacks get a damage bonus for hitting the head that other weapons don't get.
It's 29/25.
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Also pierce do x3 whenever you hit the head, means a headstab is a lot less forgivable than a faceslash (specially with 9 ps :mrgreen:)
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Ever heard in history about people dueling with spears?
Yes? Herp derp.
For instance, poleaxe techniques (which were used by armoured knights and men at arms, both for battlefield use and for dueling) inherited a lot from quarterstaff fighting techniques.
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Ever heard in history about people dueling with spears?
Yes actually. Many people throughout history dueled with spears, and probably far more often than swords. During the bronze era for instance (or whatever it's called) more often than not greek soldiers would duel with spears.
The germanic peoples developed extremeley intricate spear based martial arts and dueled with them quite often, as well as poleaxes and such which were derived alot from spear/staff techniques.
Also spear based combat was HUGELY developed in the eastern areas (china, japan, the rest of the asia's) and was utilized far more often than swords.
The spear has been a major part of human history and warfare since it's creation, the only other weapon rivaling it's importance probably being the bow.
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Ever heard in history about people dueling with spears? I think not, it's a cheap weapon for peasents. Used en masse.
I've seen enough Jet Li movies to know how effective a spear is for dueling in the right hands. But then again, Jackie Chan could win a duel with just a ladder.
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Check out any film based on ancient china and you'll get your fill of spear/pole arm dueling,
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Well, there are different kinds of spears. Some are short and work more like staffs, others are long and meant to be used in formations.
Am I the only one that thinks a great sword is almost the same thing as a poleaxe? The greatsword is a bit faster, the poleaxe has bonus against shields, but they both play almost the same.
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I've seen enough Jet Li movies to know how effective a spear is for dueling in the right hands. But then again, Jackie Chan could win a duel with just a ladder.
Which is why I still say ladders should be able to be used as polearm weapons. It's realistic.
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Which is why I still say ladders should be able to be used as polearm weapons. It's realistic.
+1 awesome point for this comment
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Which is why I still say ladders should be able to be used as polearm weapons. It's realistic.
Plus think of all the lol TK that would happen when you turn around hearing cav coming.
Realistic and funny let's do it!!!
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Should all checkout "The Warlords" for some awesome hafted blade action, Jet Li's spamming is unbeatable.
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I completely agree with this. I have a pole arm character and a 2H char. Its hard to say which is best but in larger battles or when you are against more than one opponent the pole arm comes into its own the superior length and pole arm stun make it better against larger numbers. but the 2H weapons are faster and better against skilled opponents or faster face huggers. I would like to see spears actually being effective against horses and doing more stab damage. A stab from a spear or pike would have been devastating (try it with a broom) but swinging a spear around is clumsy and should be weaker although not slower.
+I want to be able to swing sideways with my bamboo spear even if its only 10 blunt :D
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Hmm...Polearms are pretty damm ok when u ask me.
Played 2H swords for about 700 hours. Got 2 masterwork swords stashed but play a polearm build this gen.
Tbh, specially when loomed (I play stock ones) nearly all polearms have a way better dmg output than swords, a bonus (against shield/knockdown), and a stun.
Advanced Pike users are hard to fight against solo/ super ugly to fight when in a group of 2+ (e.g. Craftybadger)
Ive seen one guy being a monster with a triple loomed warspear (Everkistus).
I dont think polearms need any kind of buff at all. Thats just from what ive seen and played myself.
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Hmm...Polearms are pretty damm ok when u ask me.
Played 2H swords for about 700 hours. Got 2 masterwork swords stashed but play a polearm build this gen.
Tbh, specially when loomed (I play stock ones) nearly all polearms have a way better dmg output than swords, a bonus (against shield/knockdown), and a stun.
Advanced Pike users are hard to fight against solo/ super ugly to fight when in a group of 2+ (e.g. Craftybadger)
Ive seen one guy being a monster with a triple loomed warspear (Everkistus).
I dont think polearms need any kind of buff at all. Thats just from what ive seen and played myself.
+1. Triple loomed glavie or long hafted blades are also great weapons.
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Should all checkout "The Warlords" for some awesome hafted blade action, Jet Li's spamming is unbeatable.
Indeed. Such a badass movie.
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Yes? Herp derp.
For instance, poleaxe techniques (which were used by armoured knights and men at arms, both for battlefield use and for dueling) inherited a lot from quarterstaff fighting techniques.
Polearms, poleaxe. Weapons used to kill armoured knights training weapons, staff. Now show me proof that anyone acutally went to battle with just a spear and used it as a poleaxe or halberd.
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Polearms, poleaxe. Weapons used to kill armoured knights training weapons, staff. Now show me proof that anyone acutally went to battle with just a spear and used it as a poleaxe or halberd.
"In ancient China, many advanced martial artists and warriors knew that this pointed implement under the usage of a proficient spearmen was both lethal and formidable. Two of the top spear proponents were the famous General Yueh Fei and the first Woman Warrior-Fa Mu Lan. Both warriors were considered invincible due to their proficiency of the spear in combat. Stories have it that General Yueh Fei developed the Xing Yi mind-shaping boxing system based on his proficiency with the spear and other martial art systems. Yang Cheng Fu of the Yang Family Tai Chi fame always carried a short single-head spear for protection. It served the dual training function of a straight sword and a short staff.
Under the guise of warfare, the British in the mid-nineteenth century concluded that the Chinese spear was far superior to their bayonets. Currently, the weapon is smaller and its uses are compressed into about thirty different methods." - Ancient Chinese Warfare by Ralph D. Sawyer
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"In ancient China, many advanced martial artists and warriors knew that this pointed implement under the usage of a proficient spearmen was both lethal and formidable. Two of the top spear proponents were the famous General Yueh Fei and the first Woman Warrior-Fa Mu Lan. Both warriors were considered invincible due to their proficiency of the spear in combat. Stories have it that General Yueh Fei developed the Xing Yi mind-shaping boxing system based on his proficiency with the spear and other martial art systems. Yang Cheng Fu of the Yang Family Tai Chi fame always carried a short single-head spear for protection. It served the dual training function of a straight sword and a short staff.
Under the guise of warfare, the British in the mid-nineteenth century concluded that the Chinese spear was far superior to their bayonets. Currently, the weapon is smaller and its uses are compressed into about thirty different methods." - Ancient Chinese Warfare by Ralph D. Sawyer
Yes, yes the damn chinese, they allso claimed they invented spaghetti and football. My point is they lie too much.
" Both warriors were considered invincible due to their proficiency of the spear in combat"
And my dick is the length of 2000 black men's.
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Dude spears, even with shields are fine. Just don't expect to be able to duel with it (unless you're good or your opponents bad).
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The war spear is quite fine as it is. I'd like to see a top- or even a medium-tier spear, since the war spear (awlpike is a not a spear) is a low-tier weapon. Or rather, seeing the war spear getting a buff to a medium-tier weapon :P
Also thanks vMega for the compliments.
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imo: pieks are great to keep opponents away while waiting for backup, other polearms are good in battle and 2Hs are best for duel