cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: EyeBeat on December 11, 2011, 10:20:12 am
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Pretty much what the topic says.
The main counter to bowmen and crossbowmen is shielders that spend a fuck ton of skill points into AGI. Yet these guys are able to outlast 3 to 5 hits from a MW scimitar or broad one handed axe in my case. How is this balanced?
I guess I am whining but I feel it is justified this time.
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You sacrifice HP and DMG for Speed and Maneuver.
Its called balance....
What annoys me is that as a shielder is that we cant have both since everything below 8 ath makes us pretty useless...
If they just reduced weight on shields so u dont have to go agi whore each time you wanna play shielder buuuu huuu..... :cry:
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You sacrifice HP and DMG for Speed and Maneuver.
Its called balance....
They are supposed to sacrifice hp for ranged damage.
No.
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What annoys me is that as a shielder is that we cant have both since everything below 8 ath makes us pretty useless...
If they just reduced weight on shields so u dont have to go agi whore each time you wanna play shielder buuuu huuu..... :cry:
No the balance team needs to rework WPF and make it mean something. They know it will create ripples and earthquakes through out the community so they will not do it.
I can't wait till they do though. I have been waiting patiently for it.
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As a hybrid crossbowman, I am also putting many points into Agility. 15/24 build with 8WM. I think both my 1 handed and crossbow wpf falls into the high teens / low 20s after considering my armor. I sacrifice a lot of points to make sure I can perform well despite my armor.
The problem with bowmen is that they require high strength for Power Draw, so they tend to have almost as much HP as a 2 handed strength crutcher. They can take some hits even with light armor, and can run faster since they're so light.
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Bowmen have too much armour? The hell you on about? If you take that many hits to kill an archer, you are either agi based, have terrible footwork, are fighting a master of footwork, and/or are fighting a high level STR archer who can't run away very well/Is well above level 30.
In the last few months, I have only seen Linden wear anything even remotely higher then leather.
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Archers don't have too much armour, but I do think they have too much health (Because alot of archers now go high strength for more PD which in return increases health). Not much you can do about that though.
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I don't know, archers have to keep their armor way low or they start to affect their wpf and gimp themselves.
I currently have 60 hp with a 15 str 5 if build which is probably higher than the average archer (most are either 18/21 [53hp] or 21/18 [56hp]). I still get 1-2 shot frequently enough in melee, especially if they hit my head since I got without head armor.
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I wear Green Corrazina Armor with Vaegir War Mask, Splinted Greaves with Spurs and Plate Mittens with my archer and honestly don't see my aim take a hit.
I can't run away like that so I have to get into a good old scrap. Which is when I do notice my wpf. Its pretty easy to out pace me with all that armour on so it can be a bit of a challenge. But still the armour keeps me alive for a while.
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everyone knows that crossbowusers have it easy with no req, max armor and skills to match melee.. this is not news..
I am one of those you are talking about. I pump STR to get high powerdraw 9-10 , im slow to move slowe than most melee low ath.. so I just do the wpf tradeoff and use a lamelarvest and decent shoes and hat. I draw slower, my aim is worse.. but gawddamn I hit like a truck.. and that is the way it should be IMO.. if you miss.. well then you missed.. but When U hit.. it should hurt like hell.. 10 powerdraw rusbow + bodkins. This kind of playing lends itself more to taking high probability shots.. try to move so that many enemies are in the arrows flightcone , prioritizing engaging groups of tightly packed enemies.. larger targets.. like horses. The higher than proper armor is not for gihting melee.. I only got my shitty 0slothammer and all points are in WM and PD rest is converted to Attributes. It is for surviving other faster archers, crossbowmen.. and some protection when moving closer to the action.
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I don't really get this, your title says something about archers and crossbowmen, who have too much armour and are therefore too efficient, but you immediately start talking about shielders who can stand a couple of hits or whatever ^^
What is it now you don't like?
Btw, the times of heavy armoured archers are over for ages now. You can very rarely see an archer with tunic over mail maybe (I know Inhumane used that sometimes and I as well tried it a couple of times), but you lose lots of damage with high armour and the time you can hold your drawn bow is drastically reduced.
So you better change your title to "heavy armoured crossbowmen", because they still get no disadvantage when using heavy armour. They do not lose damage or accuracy (or at least not much accuracy, but as far as I know it's nothing) and they can always hold their crossbow as long as they want.
So please stop with putting archery and crossbowery (does that word exist?^^) together into one pot.
Thanks
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So you better change your title to "heavy armoured crossbowmen", because they still get no disadvantage when using heavy armour. They do not lose damage or accuracy (or at least not much accuracy, but as far as I know it's nothing) and they can always hold their crossbow as long as they want.
You lose accuracy with increased weight. Been there.
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So... Let's say an archer has 7PD, for Eu it appears to be the average for an archer build. Now that means a base of 30 (please correct me if I am wrong) hp, plus 21 for the strength needed, that's a total of 51.
Moving onto the armour, you're more than likely going to be running around with somewhere between 25 to 40 body armour on average depending on your looms/personal style/weight to wpf preference, personally I have 27 + 9 making 36.
Putting that against probably not an average for 2 handers, but a build I know a bit better than others, one with 18 strength giving a total of 48 health with medium-ish armour in most cases to keep with the money balance, you're looking at Lamellar basic for example, that's 36 (dead on for what I have with fully heirloomed mail gauntlets and leather jerkin), then you will more than likely have better head armour etc and therefore you're looking at, let's say for arguments sake, 40+ armour.
So;
21 str archer: 51 health, 35 armour. (~40 max without wpf loss)
18 str 2 hander: 48 health, 40+ armour. (Ability to go much higher with a hell of a lot more choice and versatility.)
I'm not sure what you're complaining about. We might have more hp if we're a heavier hitting archer but we're certainly effected more by having heavier armour and therefore it's really not worth it. Most melee builds that would acceptibly keep up with us are able to wear the same, and then on top of that, the investment that archers can't afford into Ironflesh will increase the hp further giving you, more than likely 5 to 15 more hp.
The numbers seem reasonable to me. Ranged ability for less versatility in melee and less defence.
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My friend Ides runs around in a brigandine (47 body armour) and headshots people from across the map. She laughs at how archery is the best class... With her 18/18 build she has 6 WM, 6 IF, 6 PS, and 6 PD, with 80 wpf in 1h... She also says that shielders are laughable with their coverage- she shoots them in the head over their shield or shoots their feet unless they're using a nice slow huscarl... But don't take my word for it!
NARF ARCHARY
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I wear Green Corrazina Armor with Vaegir War Mask, Splinted Greaves with Spurs and Plate Mittens with my archer and honestly don't see my aim take a hit.
I can't run away like that so I have to get into a good old scrap. Which is when I do notice my wpf. Its pretty easy to out pace me with all that armour on so it can be a bit of a challenge. But still the armour keeps me alive for a while.
Go to the duel server and shoot in light archer armor, and then switch to your heavy stuff. You'll notice the difference.
My friend Ides runs around in a brigandine (47 body armour) and headshots people from across the map. She laughs at how archery is the best class... With her 18/18 build she has 6 WM, 6 IF, 6 PS, and 6 PD, with 80 wpf in 1h... She also says that shielders are laughable with their coverage- she shoots them in the head over their shield or shoots their feet unless they're using a nice slow huscarl... But don't take my word for it!
NARF ARCHARY
Oh well then if Ides said it it must be true.
NARF ARCHARY
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If you take that many hits to kill an archer, you are either agi based, have terrible footwork, are fighting a master of footwork, and/or are fighting a high level STR archer who can't run away very well/Is well above level 30.
21 str archer: 51 health, 35 armour. (~40 max without wpf loss)
18 str 2 hander: 48 health, 40+ armour. (Ability to go much higher with a hell of a lot more choice and versatility.)
Correct me if I'm wrong EyeBeatWomen, but I believe he's talking about this: A melee "Archer hunter" build is something like 12/27, 15/24. Not an 18 str build and not wearing 40+ armor. The "Archer hunter" has to be faster than any archer otherwise he's not going to be able to do his job. So he has to sacrifice strength and armor so that he can catch those archers that run. The problem is that many archers have more hp/ps/armor than even he does. Thus he ends up with a "gimped" build.
This is happening because there are more archers that are choosing melee(albeit not very many of them) rather than simply running away. That in itself kinda makes the "Archer Hunter" build obsolete. I've certainly seen a fair bit more archers in lamellar and cavalry robes than in recent times. I've also seen more rus bows, but I'm not sure any of this is really a bad thing.
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I don't understand what you all want with your archerhunterbuilds or whatever o.O
I have a shielder myself with only 5 athletics and I can easily catch most archers. Some can run and shoot, ok, but for that I have a shield.
Those who run can wait for later.
And the damage is fine, I can 1-2 hit most archers with a nonloomed sword and 6 ps.
So what's the prob with getting a shielder? If you really want to be an archerhunter, just get yourself 6 or maybe 7 athletics, a shield and 6 ps. And yes, it is possible: 18/24 for example, 6 ps, 5 shield, 7 athletics, 5 wm. Perfect for hunting an archer.
You can also go 15/24 if you prefer being even faster, but then you have to work with speed when you want to hit, but still it takes only 2-3 hits to kill an archer then. Not that much.
And all the stuff you talk about here is complete rubbish. Archers having sooo many hp or soo much armour or whatever. Go to the servers and check out the archers (you can even check out me when I'm on with archer), you hardly see any with more than 35 bodyarmour :rolleyes:
Btw, I usually walk around with tribal warrior outfit, nordic champion's sword and heavy roundshield with my shielder, when I'm archerhunting + 5 athletics. I usually don't have much trouble to get them and if you use the possible builds I posted, you will be a perfect archerunter and you can still wear decent armour with more than 10 weight ;) No need for a 12/24 build.
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Easily catch most archers with 5 athletics and the weight of a shield? I doubt it.
"18/24 for example, 6 ps, 5 shield, 7 athletics, 5 wm. "
I'm assuming you mean 18/21 - still better to take 7 shield and 3 WM if you want to hunt archers.
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7 ath with medium/heavy armor is not enough to catch most archers.
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You're talking about Horn Bow archers, right? A longbow archer will either not be able to run away or will have no IF/PS, whilst still wearing light armor. Or will be a slow near-melee-range pewer, in which case he'd be better off with a crossbow.
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You're talking about Horn Bow archers, right? A longbow archer will either not be able to run away or will have no IF/PS, whilst still wearing light armor. Or will be a slow near-melee-range pewer, in which case he'd be better off with a crossbow.
Not sure what you mean, something like this would work just fine for running and melee...?
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 21
Agility: 18
Hit points: 56
Skills to attributes: 8
Power Strike: 4
Athletics: 6
Power Draw: 7
Weapon Master: 6
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Or will be a slow near-melee-range pewer, in which case he'd be better off with a crossbow.
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Not sure what you mean, something like this would work just fine for running and melee...?
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 21
Agility: 18
Hit points: 56
Skills to attributes: 8
Power Strike: 4
Athletics: 6
Power Draw: 7
Weapon Master: 6
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No, you don't. :/
Longbowmen - it is not a melee class, it is a ranged class. That build has next to no ranged capability.
Having an attack speed barely faster than that of a siege crossbow, less damage, whilst also missing 2/3 arrows against a static target just 20m away, whilst also having a horribad delay just doesn't work.
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Wat? How does it not have ranged capability? I don't know about you, but even with a STF 21/18 longbowman I didn't miss static targets 20m away.
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I don't know, good luck maybe? How long did you play that exactly?
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For a good while, took me pretty long to be able to afford a longbow too because of arrow breaking. It was more than accurate enough, I can only imagine how it'd be with looms.
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No way. MW longbow here -
18/18 = god-awful-accuracy, horrible to play, better off just pretending to be a peasant
18/21 = bad accuracy, annoying to play, mostly just shoot at groups, close targets, miss a lot
18/24 = suddenly goes to okay accuracy, quite playable, 3 skill points to spare at either IF/PS/Athl at lvl30.
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You shouldn't ask how long he has played archer, but when it was^^
Much has changed about archery in the last months, especially about accuracy.
Btw, you can be very accurate, even with 6 weaponmaster on a longbow, but only for short/mid range.
If you want to be away from your target for more than the reach of a thrown axe then you will recognise lots of misshots with 6 wm, if you constantly play with a longbow, unless you are a very decent archer (which can happen^^)
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Decency has nothing to do with your weapon simply being inaccurate.
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Wat? How does it not have ranged capability? I don't know about you, but even with a STF 21/18 longbowman I didn't miss static targets 20m away.
With 6WM I can confirm this with one of my previous builds and using both a MW Rus Bow and a standard Long Bow.
Apparently some people need to brush up on "E-Z" mode archery! :mrgreen:
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If its a static target you really shouldn't be missing at all :/
Granted if the target is on the other side of the map one probably can't even see the arrow, but in "normal" combat ranges a static target is going to get hit. I use a tatar bow with just 140wpf so my arc is huge and there's a bit of a wobble but its still possible to hit 100m+ targets consistently if the buggers would stop dancing.
Ps. And to get back to Eyebeats point, with 5 ath I can outrun most everything. Eyebeat will catch up to me but if there is another archer nearby he'll have to put his shield up, thus, making himself slow so I can outrun him.
Pps. The best "archer hunter" build I find is heavy 1h cav. Its armoured enough so that the arrows wont kill your horse, faster than they can run, and the 1h means your not limited by the lance angle which makes lancers so easy to dodge. But if the archers are roof camping then fuck that.
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I wear leather armour and I get killed most battles in 1 maybe 2 strikes...
3-4? I wish
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5PD bows and below seem way more accurate than the 6PD bows, especially longbow. The low speed of the longbow makes this low accuracy just so much more painful.
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5PD bows and below seem way more accurate than the 6PD bows, especially longbow. The low speed of the longbow makes this low accuracy just so much more painful.
So as a trade off for lowered accuracy we should buff longbow damage :D