cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ylca on November 30, 2011, 11:47:42 am

Title: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Ylca on November 30, 2011, 11:47:42 am: Just noticed today that the "fix" placed bodkins at 0-0-1-2. This seems ridiculous as it makes archers the only class who have to spend an entire loom point for absolutely no benefit, which is ridiculous.

The only bonus arrows have is their damage, yet fledgling new archers will wait the time it takes to retire only to find that their character gains nothing but the chance to do it over again for the any sort of upgrade.

How is this in any way balanced? I understand changing the damage spread, but honestly giving someone nothing for a loompoint is astounding.

Is this another error or a "feature"?
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Dan lol on November 30, 2011, 11:50:06 am: more arrows
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Ylca on November 30, 2011, 11:52:23 am: Quote from: Dan lol on November 30, 2011, 11:50:06 am
more arrows

2 more arrows is irrelevant and every thread talking about how to switch looms was filled with archers pointing out we don't need extra arrows. Most archers who are anything approaching competent end rounds with arrows in their quiver because they aim, not blindfire. Extra useless arrows is not an upgrade in any way, or not an upgrade worthy of an entire x months of playtime for a first gen character.

This is seriously disappointing.

e: Smoothrich, i know you hate archers and have lobbied to have them nerfed every patch. Make a response in addition to your loldownvotes (which do absolutely nothing here) if you have something to say.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Kafein on November 30, 2011, 11:56:41 am: Quote from: Ylca on November 30, 2011, 11:47:42 am
How is this in any way balanced? I understand changing the damage spread, but honestly giving someone nothing for a loompoint is astounding.

I don't see the problem. Some other heirlooms give negligible bonuses (1 damage for a 40-ish damage weapon...). Heirlooming giving damage increases for ranged weapons is in itself questionable.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Shatter on November 30, 2011, 11:58:17 am: I think the solution is to reduce the damage of all bows by 1 and go to 1/2/3 looming. :D That would balance it for MW the same way it is currently (assuming this is intended). Yet it would actually make it worse for new players.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Ylca on November 30, 2011, 11:59:39 am: Quote from: Kafein on November 30, 2011, 11:56:41 am
I don't see the problem. Some other heirlooms give negligible bonuses (1 damage for a 40-ish damage weapon...). Heirlooming giving damage increases for ranged weapons is in itself questionable.

I explained the issue. Looms give advantage for long play time. 1 point of damage is a significant upgrade given that that 1 point will be multiplied by power strike and it's nowhere near uncommon to see players with 50-60 health. As i've explained extra arrows is just that, extra arrows. There's no advantage to having them, they're laughable as a bonus, and to spend the amount of time it takes a first gen to get the arrows is ridiculous.

I'm fine i already have my looms, but this change is horrid for the people working their way up the ranks.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Vibe on November 30, 2011, 11:59:49 am: Quote from: Shatter on November 30, 2011, 11:58:17 am
I think the solution is to reduce the damage of all bows by 1 and go to 1/2/3 looming. :D That would balance it for MW the same way it is currently (assuming this is intended). Yet it would actually make it worse for new players.

Bad idea, it's actually bow looms that need nerfing, not normal bows.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Dezilagel on November 30, 2011, 12:29:41 pm: Quote from: Ylca on November 30, 2011, 11:59:39 am
I explained the issue. Looms give advantage for long play time. 1 point of damage is a significant upgrade given that that 1 point will be multiplied by power strike and it's nowhere near uncommon to see players with 50-60 health. As i've explained extra arrows is just that, extra arrows. There's no advantage to having them, they're laughable as a bonus, and to spend the amount of time it takes a first gen to get the arrows is ridiculous.

I'm fine i already have my looms, but this change is horrid for the people working their way up the ranks.

...but then PD multiplies damage by 1.14, in comparison to PS which gives a multiplier of 1.08. Combine that with the OP-as-fuck ranged pierce damage and it quickly becomes clear that 1 point of damage on your bow is worth a lot more than 1 point of damage on say an axe.

Now add the fact that you have the option (note: OPTION, you can choose just to loom your bow) to loom your ranged kit six times instead of three which is the case for melee weapons, and I wouldn't say that ranged looms are in a bad position at all.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Lech on November 30, 2011, 12:33:12 pm: Quote from: Ylca on November 30, 2011, 11:59:39 am
I explained the issue. Looms give advantage for long play time. 1 point of damage is a significant upgrade given that that 1 point will be multiplied by power strike and it's nowhere near uncommon to see players with 50-60 health. As i've explained extra arrows is just that, extra arrows. There's no advantage to having them, they're laughable as a bonus, and to spend the amount of time it takes a first gen to get the arrows is ridiculous.

I'm fine i already have my looms, but this change is horrid for the people working their way up the ranks.

Extra arrow means you have one extra opportunity to miss, it's great bonus. I feel that arrow should be:
+1:+1 arrow
+2:+2 arrow
+3:+2 arrow +1 damage

Besides, melee also have to skip generation. +2 gives just +1 speed over +1.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Joker86 on November 30, 2011, 12:39:36 pm: And don't forget that you already get your damage bonus for retiring from heirlooming your bows!

So let's say a 6th generation character can have his melee weapon loomed three times, and get a certain amount of percentual damage gain.

A 6th generation archer could not only loom his bow, but also his arrows, too, giving him two damage boni!

Which means that archers/crossbowmen can inrease their damage more than any other class. I don't see a reason why this should be possible. Unless you add a fourth heirloom level for melee weapons or reduce bows to two heirloom levels. Edit: or implement dual wielding.

And before you come up with it: archers can heirloom their armour, too.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Ylca on November 30, 2011, 12:53:49 pm: I didn't consider the fact that one can loom both bow and arrows in comparison to the fact that melee players only have one optional set of looming. I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Tennenoth on November 30, 2011, 12:59:28 pm: To be honest i've always run around with only one stack of bodkin arrows since the slots patch, having less damage hardly effects me in the scheme of things and I, as a long term player, neither care nor really have any desire to heirloom anymore but on the point of having bodkins reduced in power, I refrain from saying "nerf" because I believe it will be good, I completely agree, there were far too many other "classes" of archers starting to run around with bodkin arrows and doing more damage than really necessary for the style that they should have been.

Basically what I mean is that I prefered the old system of only having the longbow as pierce since it made it have a real "distinguishing feature" over the other ones but now that bodkins aren't so fantastic, the slightly increased damage of the longbow over the warbow will mean that once again it gives more benefits for using it, even though only slightly.
This change has meant more people will turn back to cutting arrows in order to do more damage to the masses allowing the longbow to more or less have it's niche back.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on November 30, 2011, 01:12:54 pm: also the armor nerf is an archery boost itself :P
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on November 30, 2011, 01:15:18 pm: Reissiue all loom points for arrows.

Make arrows non-loomable. The looms are a waist of time. In battle you only need 15 bodkins. And in siege you re spawn so an extra 4 arrows is well n=fuckall.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Tennenoth on November 30, 2011, 01:25:04 pm: Quote from: Corrado_Decimo on November 30, 2011, 01:12:54 pm
also the armor nerf is an archery boost itself :P

Sort of balances itself out mathematically I believe, you're losing 2 piercing damage from bodkins and average(?) you're losing 5/ body armour (I don't wear heavy armour so I don't know the accurate figures i'm afraid.) so I guess damage wise you're gaining something. I lost 4 body armour on my gloves alone which I was rather disappointed in, just means I will die easier to melee & Xbows I guess. (Which did the bigger damage in the first place)

In short, it's a boost to every wepaon but less so towards archery, from what I can see anyway, i've not been able to play for a little bit.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Fasader on November 30, 2011, 01:41:23 pm: Ylca, please refrain yourself from posting further in this part of the forums.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Joker86 on November 30, 2011, 01:51:09 pm: Come on, everyone makes a mistake or sometimes forgets/oversees something. I wouldn't be so unkind to generally deny somebody the right to post somewhere.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Ylca on November 30, 2011, 01:56:44 pm: Quote from: Fasader on November 30, 2011, 01:41:23 pm
Ylca, please refrain yourself from posting further in this part of the forums.

Yep, one of the few people willing to admit when they're wrong should totally never post again. Stellar post.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: RandomDude on November 30, 2011, 02:14:23 pm: I think the main problem I had was that most ranged can loom 2 items to increase damage + armour but classes like 2h can only loom 1 item to increase dmg + 1 armour

Giving bows the same upgrades as other weapons ad no possibility to loom arrows could work - give archers their loom points back for those of course.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Joker86 on November 30, 2011, 02:55:07 pm: Well, I would give archers the possibility to loom arrows, as for example infantry can loom its shield or cavalry can loom its horses, but I would say limit it on 2 more shots per loom level. You would have large bags of arrows (+2), really large bags of arrows (+4) and supersize bags of arrows (+6), which would hopefully increase motivation to heirloom arrows.

I don't think we should restrict heirlooming to certain items, as cRPG is about variety and choice.

But the more I think about it, the more I would support increasing heirloom bonuses accordingly to the slots an item takes.

Because in theory time is endless, and so are loom points.

Now let's compare a pikeman to a 1hd-cavalry-horse-archer-hybrid.

The pikeman will most likely only use his pike, because there are no other items that make sense in combination with an unsheathable, two handed 3-slot weapon, so he could heirloom:

- Pike
- Armour
- Helmet
- Gloves
- Boots

Whereas the hybrid can heirloom

- Bow
- Arrows
- Shield
- Sabre
- Armour
- Helmet
- Gloves
- Boots
- Horse

Which, if you think about it correctly, on long term strongly favours the second build.

So I think it would not be unfair to give a pike +2 damage and +1 speed per heirloom level, because playing a pikeman is currently the least rewarding class in cRPG.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Dezilagel on November 30, 2011, 03:46:16 pm: Quote from: Joker86 on November 30, 2011, 02:55:07 pm

Hmm... My sixth sense tells me you are a... Pikeman! :o

Oh, and what you are suggesting is retarded. Should the hybrid be forced to do more generations for the same bonii? Dun le think so.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Joker86 on November 30, 2011, 03:53:38 pm: Quote from: Dezilagel on November 30, 2011, 03:46:16 pm
Hmm... My sixth sense tells me you are a... Pikeman! :o

I am not, I am 2hd inf :P

Quote from: Dezilagel on November 30, 2011, 03:46:16 pm
Oh, and what you are suggesting is retarded. Should the hybrid be forced to do more generations for the same bonii? Dun le think so.

Hybrids are by definition more versatile. And your question can be easily turned around into "Should the pikeman have less boni to get from retiring?".

There needs to be found some solution. And especially after the market place was introduced it's nowhere near impossible to run around with maxed out equipment.

cRPG has still a lot of balancing to undergo... :?
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: SchokoSchaf on November 30, 2011, 03:53:44 pm: Quote from: Joker86 on November 30, 2011, 02:55:07 pm
So I think it would not be unfair to give a pike +2 damage and +1 speed per heirloom level, because playing a pikeman is currently great fun in cRPG.
You can hide behind your teammates and stab people on long range, you are the anti-horse³. Honestly sometime I play pike with my 1h-shield char just for fun.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Joker86 on November 30, 2011, 04:00:50 pm: Quote from: SchokoSchaf on November 30, 2011, 03:53:44 pm
You can hide behind your teammates and stab people on long range, you are the anti-horse³. Honestly sometime I play pike with my 1h-shield char just for fun.

Everyone can hide behind teammates, the pikeman just doesn't have to step forward a bit to attack the enemy from the second row.

Archers are anti-horse. Pikemen only "block" horses, they don't kill them, unless the cavalryman sucks.

Really, compared with the possibilities of the other classes the pikeman is both most limeted and most hated by the developers (or why would they nerf the only class noone complains about?)
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Beat on November 30, 2011, 04:42:27 pm: Quote from: Corrado_Decimo on November 30, 2011, 01:12:54 pm
also the armor nerf is an archery boost itself :P

Everyone lost armor with the patch and arrows lost damage, which more or less balances out. Melee weapon damage was unchanged for all but a select few items. Seems pretty clear to me that archery got nerfed when compared to melee.

EDIT: Oops, looks like Tennoth beat me to it on the first page and explained it much better too. :P
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Lennu on November 30, 2011, 04:52:02 pm: When I was playing as an archer, I bough myself +1 bodkins. I COULD have bought 3 bodkins but in my opinion that would have been waste of money/looms. When talking about arrows, the 1st heilroom is the most important. +1 or +2 damage is just shit if you compare it to change to get 4 (2stacks of arrows +bow) more shots with piercing damage. Ofc, x3 bodkins are better than x1's. But I had to pay 300k for those +1 bodkins, when +3's would have cost around 1 million, nowdays they will cost some 1.5M or even more.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: duurrr on November 30, 2011, 04:52:20 pm: i wish my shield gave me melee damage bonus like arrows do for bow
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: duurrr on November 30, 2011, 04:54:45 pm: Quote from: Joker86 on November 30, 2011, 04:00:50 pm
Everyone can hide behind teammates, the pikeman just doesn't have to step forward a bit to attack the enemy from the second row.

Archers are anti-horse. Pikemen only "block" horses, they don't kill them, unless the cavalryman sucks.

Really, compared with the possibilities of the other classes the pikeman is both most limeted and most hated by the developers (or why would they nerf the only class noone complains about?)
lol

im sure the lawlpike was totaly balanced

also the long spear overhead being friendly fire proof, yup, takes skill and balanced imo
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Joker86 on November 30, 2011, 04:59:48 pm: Quote from: duurrr on November 30, 2011, 04:54:45 pm
lol

im sure the lawlpike was totaly balanced

also the long spear overhead being friendly fire proof, yup, takes skill and balanced imo

I agree on removing the overhead swing, actually... :?

And pikes were definitely balanced better than most other weapons/classes, e.g. ranged, cavalry, polearms (stun), throwing... you never had a problem with too many pikemen, or having the pikemen dominate the scoreboards and servers, like you had with archers or cavalry.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Lennu on November 30, 2011, 05:14:20 pm: Pike/long spear is awesome weapon, most people just don't realise it since it's not their top 10 weapon of choice. Mainly because that common sense says that pike/longspear can't be used in close/mid range melee :D

With their damage, reach and ability to stab around/though teammates without hitting them it makes a real killer in teamfights. I'd rather fight against 3 2handers/shielders/"normal" poleweapon users that go against 2 any other enemies when 1 is carrying a pike/longspear.
Ofc, expecting that they all are familiar with their weapons.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Beat on November 30, 2011, 05:24:40 pm: Pikemen never dominating the scoreboard? Dexxta, anyone?

And how often do you see an archer dominate and what are their names so I can congratulate them for their incredible skill. Try playing an archer on native and then on cRPG to see how much skill an archer has to have to perform even moderately well with the longer draw time, lower missile speed and reduced damage here.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think pikes are overpowered or that archery needs to be like it is in native. But I can't help but wonder if we are playing the same game. :)
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Joker86 on November 30, 2011, 06:10:56 pm: Well, as usually perceptions differ. In my eyes pikemen are only supporters and nothing else. I don't know any class that is as much dependant on other players as pikemen are. Without teamplay a pikeman is worth nothing. On his own he can barely do anything. And on his own he is probably the most vulnerable class of all, with the least possible defense qualities.

Playing pikeman IS fun, and yes, it's a good supporter, but it's only a supporter. I don't say to buff him up to the level of cavalry or two handers, but at least the devs should stop nerfing this class from patch to patch, while constantly making bullshit considering the other classes, especially archery.

You are probably right, +2 dmg per loom level is too much, but buff the weapon otherwise, just to make up for the fact that it is the only class in the entire game where you can use only that one item. All other classes can go hybrid to a certain degree, pikeman can't. I think that's plain unfair.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Little Lord Lollipop on November 30, 2011, 06:27:16 pm: Pikes can take a 1-slot polearm for close combat...
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Skysong on November 30, 2011, 06:30:49 pm: Don't you get bonus for your loomed bow already?
Can't see why so much qq about bodkins. What do you want? One shot kill everyone in the leg?
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Beat on November 30, 2011, 06:34:25 pm: Now that the round steel buckler is 0 slot and 3 difficulty, pikemen can go hybrid with a shortened spear, military fork or a nice one hander. Or they could get a nice shield and a 0 slot weapon.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Fasader on November 30, 2011, 06:36:54 pm: Quote from: Ylca on November 30, 2011, 01:56:44 pm
Yep, one of the few people willing to admit when they're wrong should totally never post again. Stellar post.
I see you are ignoring my request, let me explain:

1) this is not the game balance forum
2) arrows didn't get bonus damage before the latest patch either
~~3) you can loom bows (this one apparently got through your thick skull)~~
4) extra arrows are clearly not irrelevant (unless you abuse some kind of bugs that give you extra arrows)
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: SixThumbs on November 30, 2011, 08:13:31 pm: Just give me my extra point of speed back on my bastard sword +3 you bastards.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Ylca on November 30, 2011, 08:31:36 pm: Quote from: Fasader on November 30, 2011, 06:36:54 pm
I see you are ignoring my request, let me explain:

1) this is not the game balance forum
2) arrows didn't get bonus damage before the latest patch either
~~3) you can loom bows (this one apparently got through your thick skull)~~
4) extra arrows are clearly not irrelevant (unless you abuse some kind of bugs that give you extra arrows)

Allow me to clarify again since you didn't catch it the first time.

I was wrong.

There, now you can sleep soundly tonight instead of continuing to beat a dead horse for your own smug sense of superiority.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Fasader on November 30, 2011, 09:47:24 pm: I'm glad you recognize my superiority.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on November 30, 2011, 09:50:12 pm: If looming doesn't seem worth it, don't retire.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on November 30, 2011, 10:04:10 pm: Quote from: Tomas_of_Miles on November 30, 2011, 09:50:12 pm
If looming doesn't seem worth it, don't retire.

about that, WAS worth to retire, now is not. but anyway the loom nerf was all across the board (armor, arrows) so there no reason to go mad. i had +14 armor bonus, now it's only +8. i did 6 generations just for the armor, but since all armors got rebalanced i'm fine with that.

i'll say it again. lowering heirloom armor bonus is an indirect ranged buff. So archers should be less mad imo.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: karasu on November 30, 2011, 10:11:43 pm: Quote from: Fasader on November 30, 2011, 09:47:24 pm
I'm glad you recognize my obvious crossbow lobbyistic tendencies.

(click to show/hide)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Fips on November 30, 2011, 10:22:45 pm: Fuck this shit. Switching back to 2h. I've had enough of this nerfing bullshit.
Since i'm playing archer every freakin patch i get nerfed. And now, i cant even use my loomed outfit because it got too heavy and the wpf-penalty starts to kick in.

At least i'm one of the dev-loved classes then. 8-)
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on November 30, 2011, 10:37:22 pm: If they nerfed long dagger looms I'm about to skip 3 generations.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Ylca on November 30, 2011, 11:18:39 pm: Quote from: Fasader on November 30, 2011, 09:47:24 pm
I'm glad you recognize my superiority.

I recognize that you code the game and could pull stings to have me "coded out'" (banned) of this forum/game if you were feeling petty enough.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Chico on November 30, 2011, 11:29:43 pm: Quote from: Ylca on November 30, 2011, 11:18:39 pm
I recognize that you code the game and could pull stings to have me "coded out'" (banned) of this forum/game if you were feeling petty enough.
No no no, dont fight back. Feed him more.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Smoothrich on November 30, 2011, 11:49:13 pm: Quote from: Ylca on November 30, 2011, 11:52:23 am
e: Smoothrich, i know you hate archers and have lobbied to have them nerfed every patch. Make a response in addition to your loldownvotes (which do absolutely nothing here) if you have something to say.

I don't hate archers, this was just a bad thread and a bad idea. Fasader spelled it out, but you put it in the wrong forum, were wrong right off the bat (+1 looms always gave 2 arrows only), and all armor was reduced to try to buff melee combat a bit, ranged dmg was reduced slightly to compensate because bodkin shots have been doing more damage then generic cut melee weapons for months now. I still think high PD should reduce accuracy/travelspeed/some sort of penalty a bit more, because these PD stacked MW Bodkins MW Rus Bow users put out an outrageous amount of damage as long as they are decent shots. Also bow carrying weight definitely needs an increase, as the kitability of archers is too much imo.

But as you can see Ylca, I didn't even have to organize a goon rush on the OP to -1 it into shit post territory, lmao. The community can moderate itself just fine.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Ylca on December 01, 2011, 12:38:02 am: Quote from: Smoothrich on November 30, 2011, 11:49:13 pm
I don't hate archers, this was just a bad thread and a bad idea. Fasader spelled it out, but you put it in the wrong forum, were wrong right off the bat (+1 looms always gave 2 arrows only), and all armor was reduced to try to buff melee combat a bit, ranged dmg was reduced slightly to compensate because bodkin shots have been doing more damage then generic cut melee weapons for months now. I still think high PD should reduce accuracy/travelspeed/some sort of penalty a bit more, because these PD stacked MW Bodkins MW Rus Bow users put out an outrageous amount of damage as long as they are decent shots. Also bow carrying weight definitely needs an increase, as the kitability of archers is too much imo.

But as you can see Ylca, I didn't even have to organize a goon rush on the OP to -1 it into shit post territory, lmao. The community can moderate itself just fine.

I mean this isn't reddit, i was pointing out that downvotes don't do anything here and it's silly to downvote without at least saying something. Nice post, though and you are correct.
Title: Re: Does any other class have to "skip" a generation?
Post by: Kafein on December 01, 2011, 12:59:48 am: Quote from: Ylca on December 01, 2011, 12:38:02 am
I mean this isn't reddit, i was pointing out that downvotes don't do anything here and it's silly to downvote without at least saying something. Nice post, though and you are correct.

I downvote and I say something. That doesn't make it less silly. I'd even say it's more silly to do both. When you don't want to have an argument, just downvote someone. When you want to discuss the issue, don't downvote. It's always bad to start a topic on such a negative basis.