cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Mouse on February 13, 2011, 06:16:08 am

Title: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Mouse on February 13, 2011, 06:16:08 am
TL;DR? Critically hit by a wall of well-formatted text for 9999 damage? Well GTFO my thread then you illiterate scrub!

I'm not entirely unhappy with the way archery works right now in cRPG, but I do play an archer myself and I would agree with the opinions that archery (and crossbow-ery...?) is missing something after it took a nerf to every single stat: arrow speed, damage, rate of fire, accuracy, damage type.

One of my complaints with the game design in cRPG is the generic weapon progression where everything pretty much uniformly gets larger and more damaging as it gets slower (usually) and more expensive. Weapons aren't balanced with advantages and disadvantages. This linear weapon progression is boring and and flavorless. While I would be willing to retool the entire weapon list myself, and I have the coding skill to do so, I'm not sure chadz and the cRPG team would be interested in something like that.

The archery weapons, however, are few enough that I think a retool would be easy to do. It wouldn't dramatically reinvent the game and weapon balance either, and so I hope my suggestion here will be taken seriously. One thing that you must understand is that I care about game design. I want the game to be interesting and varied, and I want every "tool" at a player's disposal to have a distinct use in the game that makes it worth using sometimes and a bad idea other times. Hard realism is not in my interest. Bows shoot arrows. Shields block arrows. That's enough realism for me.

Anyway, I went back to play Guild Wars recently, and when I was playing my ranger I remembered they had a variety of bows. Each type of bow has advantages and disadvantages. I feel like it is a good starting point, and so I used it as the basis for my ideas on rebalancing bows in cRPG and making them more interesting to use.

Here is a link about bows in Guild Wars for reference: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bow

I am not going to attempt to put numbers on the cRPG bows because I have no way of testing hypothetical numbers. Instead I'll list the bows and imagine a possible role for the bow that fits with the stats we have the ability to tweak. These are only suggestions, examples of what I think could be done to make bows more interesting in Warband.

Strong Bow
The horn bow in Guild Wars has armor penetration, which translates to restoring the strong bow's piercing damage in cRPG. It is the slowest bow, and it has average accuracy and arrow speed. It has relatively low DPS but hits the hardest per arrow against armored targets. I think the strong bow fits this idea best in Warband. The key here is to give the bow piercing damage, but to make sure the raw damage is merely average and the rate of fire is slower than other bows. There must be a sweet spot in armor where this armor piercing becomes the better choice, but before that it is not such a good idea. I would suggest somewhere about 50+ armor, which is what the expensive tier 5 horses have.

Khergit Bow
I propose making the Khergit bow the most accurate bow in cRPG. It already ended up being the most accurate bow with acceptable damage, so the changes would not be dramatic. It should have an average rate of fire and be very accurate, but the arrows should travel very slowly. This makes the bow easier to dodge even at medium range if someone is paying attention, and the resulting high arc should make it more difficult to use at long range as well.

Hunting Bow
Currently there are three peasant bows in cRPG and four "real" bows. That means two bows are pretty much a waste of space. The hunting bow should remain a peasant bow, although I might suggest giving it piercing damage just so it's not utterly useless. Even an archer can comfortably wear 30 points of armor, which makes it's current 15 cut damage a joke.

Short Bow
The short bow had a place in Warband and it deserves to get its niche back in cRPG: it's the "very very light machine gun" bow. It is great for countering archers at closer ranges or harassing (stunning) players who don't have shields. This bow would do normal damage (not paper cut damage like it does now) but have poor accuracy and arrow speed, forcing people to use it up close. I would raise its requirement to power draw 3 (so that there is no bow at power draw 2) and give it a rate of fire more comparable to Native bows than cRPG bows. I would not allow the short bow to be used from horseback, because that would be too obnoxious against foot archers.

Nomad Bow
I don't have a good idea for the nomad bow, I'm afraid. It could be the mounted equivalent of the short bow, just not as good. I'm just not sure, but anything is better than having 3 out of 7 bows being "peasant bows"

War Bow
Finally we're up to the interesting bows. I would consider the war bow to be comparable to the recurve bow in Guild Wars. Kind of. It would have average stats all around, but better damage (though no piercing) and keep its 6 power draw requirement. It would have the fastest arrow speed. I'm talking Super Man travels back-in-time fast. The quantum arrows arrive at the target before they're drawn from the quiver. This would make its arc exceptionally flat and its arrows painfully difficult to dodge at closer ranges. (It would still be too inaccurate for reliable sniping at long range.) I think the current tactics that war bow archers currently tend to use would fit well with a bow like this, and it would remain the standard bow for foot archers.

Long Bow
This bow is painfully bad right now. You work your way up to 6 or 7 PD and hope to wreck people with a 30 damage bow of doom and... you get this piece of crap. First, the size bug needs to get fixed so this bow looks impressive again. It also needs a major overhaul. I suggest bumping this bow up to actually require 7 PD. Only real archers need apply. It should remain the highest damage bow in the game, enough that it still does as much damage as the piercing strong bow against someone in full plate armor. I would give the long bow the highest raw damage, good accuracy (second only to the Khergit bow), average arrow speed, and slightly below average rate of fire. The bow would be well-rounded and a worthy counterpart to the war bow. The long bow would be accurate and hard hitting, something of a "sniper" bow, but the war bow would shoot flatter and have a better rate of fire.

I'm asking for criticism, but I'm not asking for a point-by-point critique of my exact idea on bow balance. It is merely an example of what I think could be done; I am not trying to say it is the best idea, only that it seems better to me than what we have right now. What I'm more interested in is what other archers (and even non-archers) think about rebalancing the bows in this way or in a similar fashion that gives each bow an interesting flavor and niche to fill in the game rather than the generic linear progression we have right now which makes bows uniformly get bigger, slower, less accurate, but harder hitting with faster arrows/less arc. I hope if this thread gets some real attention that chadz and the other cRPG developers will consider doing something like this. There are only seven bows, so it is not as if I'm trying to rebalance the stats for a the entire game. (Although I think such an undertaking would be a positive thing... if I were allowed to do it, of course. 8-) )
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Roran Hawkins on February 13, 2011, 10:51:21 am
I play GW too, nice idea, but the part of PD7 is not good, then the archer will probably only have 15 AGI, wich makes them very inaccurate, even though it's the second most accurate bow.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Mouse on February 13, 2011, 12:12:59 pm
I play GW too, nice idea, but the part of PD7 is not good, then the archer will probably only have 15 AGI, wich makes them very inaccurate, even though it's the second most accurate bow.

We're not talking about the current long bow being raised to PD7. This is a new long bow with better stats all around. You are not taking the whole package into account, which would include a serious boost to the bow's currently pathetic accuracy. Also, a dedicated archer can easily convert 8 skill points points to go 21/18 at level 30. 24/15 would work as well for someone willing to lose some WPF for a couple of points more damage. This bow would be the reason to take such a build over a low-strength horse archer build or ninja/archer hybrid, hopefully increasing the diversity in archery.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: MountedRhader on February 13, 2011, 12:24:58 pm
I hate saying this.. but I miss warbow archers  :(
They were perfect at killing throwers..
In no way do I miss longbow archers  :twisted:

Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Kalam on February 13, 2011, 12:41:00 pm
Sounds good to me. I can't find anything I disagree with.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: weight on February 13, 2011, 12:46:18 pm
Archery is fine the way it is. Only good archers top the scoreboard, thats the way its supposed to be. You guys should try heirlooming your bow, it really improves the quality of the bows alot. Archery is already really strong and if throwing gets nerfed in the new patch, archery will shine even brighter.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Vexus on February 13, 2011, 12:51:58 pm
The only problem archery has now is starting as a new archer because honestly I started getting kills with bow apart of people already damaged a lot or headshoting a damaged player at around 4+ PD meaning around 12 strength before you are able to be of little help.

Now my archer is PD 7 and it still takes a few arrows to even damage heavy armored people but at least now I'm annoying and can kill.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 13, 2011, 05:17:43 pm
What you're calling for, Mouse, in gamer geek terminology, is the total abandonment of simulationism in favour of gamism. Warband and cRPG players and modders are unlikely to agree to that.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: IG_Saint on February 13, 2011, 05:32:10 pm
What you're calling for, Mouse, in gamer geek terminology, is the total abandonment of simulationism in favour of gamism. Warband and cRPG players and modders are unlikely to agree to that.

Yeah, cause cRPG with its range of equipment from the dark ages up to the renaissance and weapon passing through people's body without impairing them in any real way and god knows how many other things, is clearly a simulation. Gameplay > realism. Always has, always wil. As to the actual suggestion, I have no idea, other than to say I like the idea of weapons fufilling different roles instead of just being a lineair progression.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Dravic on February 13, 2011, 05:43:18 pm
Dont make Longobw need 7 PD, it will be massacre for archers, because higher requirements of bow it is even worse with reticule etc, no stats buffing will compenstate smaller reticule. Better leave Longbow how it is now with requirement and only buff stats, but nerf speed a bit.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Serruntis on February 13, 2011, 06:18:59 pm
This is the only game i have played where a profession is said to be to powerful and needs a nerf, namely the archer. After the patch the archer is more like a support troop and not an individual profession where a player can make an archer char powerful after a few months of playing, yes nerf the archer but give us something in return, i think your idea is a very good one Mouse. There has to be a balance not just nerf a profession cause people complain bout it, so making archers weaker i can accept, but give us better bows and/or arrows, so the archer profession is more interesting. A bigger variety of bows and arrows would also make it much more interesting to play an archer.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: bruce on February 13, 2011, 08:46:48 pm
Dont make Longobw need 7 PD, it will be massacre for archers, because higher requirements of bow it is even worse with reticule etc

It's not, you can be quite accurate with 7 PD, at least with lesser bows.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: UrLukur on February 13, 2011, 10:03:03 pm
It's not, you can be quite accurate with 7 PD, at least with lesser bows.

Points above requirement increase accuracy.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Mouse on February 14, 2011, 03:35:44 am
Most (not all!) of the replies here seem to be missing the point of my thread. Most of the replies obviously didn't even read the OP, skimming it at best. I guess that's what I should expect when I try to make a thoughtful post on the internet. :cry:

At least I know IG_Saint is awesome, intelligent, and most likely very handsome or beautiful.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Bcleary on February 14, 2011, 04:07:37 am
Dont make Longobw need 7 PD, it will be massacre for archers, because higher requirements of bow it is even worse with reticule etc, no stats buffing will compenstate smaller reticule. Better leave Longbow how it is now with requirement and only buff stats, but nerf speed a bit.

Sorry to say, but you are incorrect. At 8 PD with a longbow and 24 str and 11 agility i went 8-4 on the last map. It is close and medium range and every once in a while i hit far. You just need to get used to aiming with a large reticle and use it effectively.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 14, 2011, 06:18:02 am
A nicely written well thought out post. Although if some one digs enough and looks specifically enough they will probably find some error, however in the grand scheme of the post I have to agree. This simple progression trend needs to be snipped. I personally like your suggestion on how to rebalance bows I hope it or something like it will be implemented.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Beans on February 14, 2011, 06:31:05 am
A great post in a forum usually full of shit. Good stuff.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Ujin on February 14, 2011, 10:23:04 am
Archery is fine the way it is. Only good archers top the scoreboard, thats the way its supposed to be. You guys should try heirlooming your bow, it really improves the quality of the bows alot. Archery is already really strong and if throwing gets nerfed in the new patch, archery will shine even brighter.
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Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Gorath on February 14, 2011, 07:53:21 pm
Overall I absolutely agree Mouse.  In fact I think every weapon type should undergo this kind of balancing act.  More significant trade-offs instead of 1-2 (sometimes up to 4) top tier weapons and everything else is self-gimping for the sake of style.  I'm sure the post could be nitpicked, but overall the idea behind the post is absolutely correct imo.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: justme on February 14, 2011, 08:00:21 pm
i was hoping to see installing critical damage which would bring 50% more damage... for bows there could be 2% chance to happen , and for xbows 5%..
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Murchad on February 14, 2011, 08:50:43 pm
Rather than having bows posess mystical abilities I think bows should be balanced in a more realistic manner

shorter bows should have worse accuracy especially at long range

hunting bow should be good accuracy -
weaker bows should haven decent dmg up close but steep dropoff for long range shots

weak bows you can hold up drawn a lot longer without reticule opening up

so for long range the powerful bows will have a huge advantage but for close range the weaker bows will have slight advantage due to rof.

Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: UrLukur on February 14, 2011, 09:33:57 pm
Overall I absolutely agree Mouse.  In fact I think every weapon type should undergo this kind of balancing act.  More significant trade-offs instead of 1-2 (sometimes up to 4) top tier weapons and everything else is self-gimping for the sake of style.  I'm sure the post could be nitpicked, but overall the idea behind the post is absolutely correct imo.

Offering more good options is always welcome, i would like o see more bows overall, but in current situation make all but one viable choice for endgame char.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 14, 2011, 10:40:03 pm
Yeah, cause cRPG with its range of equipment from the dark ages up to the renaissance and weapon passing through people's body without impairing them in any real way and god knows how many other things, is clearly a simulation. Gameplay > realism. Always has, always wil. As to the actual suggestion, I have no idea, other than to say I like the idea of weapons fufilling different roles instead of just being a lineair progression.
It doesn't have to be a perfect simulation for people to think in simulationist terms, which quite a lot do, whether they're justified in doing so or not.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: KO3AK on February 14, 2011, 11:26:52 pm
I hope chadz will make some changes.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: [ptx] on February 14, 2011, 11:52:06 pm
What you are missing mouse, is that longbow has 96 base accuracy right now. I used a MW Longbow until the heirloom theft, that had 98 accuracy. With 6 PD and some 160-170 wpf... it really wasn't that accurate. Even with 99 or 100 accuracy it wouldn't be nowhere near accurate with 7 PD at lvl30 or 31. You can only boost the stats so much.

Ideas are interesting, of course, but would be a fucking pain to balance, i imagine. And i really am not sure if they would ever get balanced better than they could be with the current system.

TBH, archery was at its best balance before the arrow damage buff. Perhaps some buff to bow damage would have still been okay to please some of the complaints. Arrow damage buff is what makes the longbow as crap as it is right now, relative to other bows.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: bruce on February 15, 2011, 12:00:34 am
TBH, archery was at its best balance before the arrow damage buff. Perhaps some buff to bow damage would have still been okay to please some of the complaints. Arrow damage buff is what makes the longbow as crap as it is right now, relative to other bows.

True. Before the arrow damage buff PD mattered so much - sure a str build couldn't keep up with the accuracy or volume of fire in a ranged fight, but the damage difference was really big, now... not so much.

Increasing the bow damage would have made more sense, imo, especially for the higher end bows like the longbow.


Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Riddaren on February 15, 2011, 12:35:13 am
"I like the idea of weapons fufilling different roles instead of just being a lineair progression."

I agree :)


A bit OT:
Even though the archer has been heavily nerfed (slower shot speed and cutting damage) you still see people with a kd ratio of 10:1 playing archers.
Also, it's still a very good counter vs unarmoured horses. If I (being a light lancer / HA) try to take on a good archer he WILL kill my horse.

That being said, I don't think archery is underpowered.

My character is kind of screwed up right now having points in all skills but Ironflesh and Athletics. Still I find horse archery pretty useful with only 4 PD, 3 HA and 130 WPF.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Mouse on February 15, 2011, 12:44:44 am
What you are missing mouse, is that longbow has 96 base accuracy right now. I used a MW Longbow until the heirloom theft, that had 98 accuracy. With 6 PD and some 160-170 wpf... it really wasn't that accurate. Even with 99 or 100 accuracy it wouldn't be nowhere near accurate with 7 PD at lvl30 or 31. You can only boost the stats so much.

Ideas are interesting, of course, but would be a fucking pain to balance, i imagine. And i really am not sure if they would ever get balanced better than they could be with the current system.

TBH, archery was at its best balance before the arrow damage buff. Perhaps some buff to bow damage would have still been okay to please some of the complaints. Arrow damage buff is what makes the longbow as crap as it is right now, relative to other bows.

Assuming 100 is the maximum accuracy as you suggest (which is a good point to bring up) you can still reduce the accuracy of other bows and then rescale the WPF/PD accuracy curve to get the kind of effect I'm looking for.

Furthermore, this thread isn't entirely about balance. It's mostly about making the archery game more interesting and diverse. All weapons, shields and armor could all use a similar adjustment. For example, where are the really light-weight expensive armors (like native's Sarranid guard armor) with higher armor value? Where is the cheap armor with higher armor value but absurd weight and strength requirements? They would be easier to work with in some ways, but bows make for the smallest test case.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: bruce on February 15, 2011, 12:46:11 am
where are the really light-weight expensive armors (like native's Sarranid guard armor) with higher armor value

I know where they'd be, on 50% of the players.

People in CRPG try to use the most "effective" stuff, it's just like that. Upkeep and level limits did a good job bringing diversity to the table, but obviously people will not choose a vastly inferior option regardless of cost.

Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: [ptx] on February 15, 2011, 08:20:16 pm
Eh, well, perhaps scaling archery wpf to something higher + nerfing the accuracy of other bows and also their speed, to compensate for WPF speed bonus might work.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Havoco on February 16, 2011, 01:12:10 am
Good idea, but I oppose any significant change to any item unless we are allowed to re heirloom items. besides, I think archery right now is fine.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Grey on February 16, 2011, 01:51:49 am
I have an archer.

He has PD 6. This is the top limit any archer needs.

He has 150 wpf in archery.

He has very good K/D ratio.

I can post some screenshots if you want. Top of the tables, scores of 12/2, etc.....

SO: I can fire accurately as far as the game can render. I can kill ANYTHING with a single headshot. My 18 strengh allows me to destroy others in melee with basic weapons. I dont wear armour, or carry a shield.

WHY ON EARTH would you want to compare Warband (a great and innovative game) with GW (another cloned rpg where I press 1, then 2, then 3, then space bar, then 4, then 1, etc)??!!

GW sux my ass, its just another point and clickfest.

In CRPG, If I want fast fire and supperaccuracy, I grab my shortbow, if I want to dominate tincans, I grab my 'loomed warbow. When Im riding my horse I grab my Strongbow, or to save money my nomad bow..... On my agiarcher I always have my Hunting Bow to hand....

I read the OP, but the OP obviously hasnt played the game, or else he would see that there isnt a gradual progression, if you are seriously going to build an archer, the only realistic way to do it is use melee weapons untill 18 str........

PD over the requirement DOES NOT GIVE more accuracy, it merely allows you to hold the bow drawn for longer without suffering penalties. This can be helpful if you are fail at aiming, or cant pick a target.

Archery does need SOME love IMHO, but the OP's idea has not been thought out. BAD IDEA, if you want to change something, try to improve or innovate, dont just try to clone the style of another game, especially not so stagnant and downright BORING as GW.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Siiem on February 16, 2011, 01:58:39 am
You lost me the moment you brought guild wars into your post.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: 3ABP on February 16, 2011, 02:11:40 am
Very nice ideas and good job done by topic starter.
But as said before - looks like it is a terrible job to balance this whole new bow system.
And, just look, even ATM here is some differences between bows. Here is nice 3 bow what meet their requirements (Khergit, Strong and War).
Unfortunately first 3 bow are crap. But let it be. At least 3 bow are balanced now (better or worse, but balanced).
Lets just do something with Longbow and fine.
For not too big archers population - 4 actually used bows is totally enough. I even can't imagine a "targets\points\question" to the 3 first bows (hunting and e.t.c.).
Fast anti archer\Xbow = Khergit. HA - Khergit.
Need more dmg - Strong.
Want to kill (at least damage ^) ) tincans - warbow.
And as absolutely clear - totally crap - Longbow ^) = potentially bow for long distance shooting (and hard hitting ^) ). But thx the God - looks like developers thinking about this.

So - IMHO - here is not need TOTAL bow rebalance. Cos it takes a very long time to balance totally new system.
It is easer and cheaper to finish existing, than begin absolutely new.

But idea -is great. Yeah. But not for this mod (time, situation).

IMHO.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Mouse on February 18, 2011, 03:07:48 am
I have an archer.

He has PD 6. This is the top limit any archer needs.

He has 150 wpf in archery.

He has very good K/D ratio.

I can post some screenshots if you want. Top of the tables, scores of 12/2, etc.....

SO: I can fire accurately as far as the game can render. I can kill ANYTHING with a single headshot. My 18 strengh allows me to destroy others in melee with basic weapons. I dont wear armour, or carry a shield.

WHY ON EARTH would you want to compare Warband (a great and innovative game) with GW (another cloned rpg where I press 1, then 2, then 3, then space bar, then 4, then 1, etc)??!!

GW sux my ass, its just another point and clickfest.

In CRPG, If I want fast fire and supperaccuracy, I grab my shortbow, if I want to dominate tincans, I grab my 'loomed warbow. When Im riding my horse I grab my Strongbow, or to save money my nomad bow..... On my agiarcher I always have my Hunting Bow to hand....

I read the OP, but the OP obviously hasnt played the game, or else he would see that there isnt a gradual progression, if you are seriously going to build an archer, the only realistic way to do it is use melee weapons untill 18 str........

PD over the requirement DOES NOT GIVE more accuracy, it merely allows you to hold the bow drawn for longer without suffering penalties. This can be helpful if you are fail at aiming, or cant pick a target.

Archery does need SOME love IMHO, but the OP's idea has not been thought out. BAD IDEA, if you want to change something, try to improve or innovate, dont just try to clone the style of another game, especially not so stagnant and downright BORING as GW.

I don't even know what to say to this. It's a shining example of the worst of the cRPG community and it's obvious that I put far more thought into my post than you ever will.

You lost me the moment you brought guild wars into your post.

Learn to think critically about what you read.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Jagen Claw on February 18, 2011, 09:31:06 am
What the heck are some of these people talking about?!I seriously doubt some of you have even been an archer!
Heres the situstion as I take it.....

Tincan:"Kherghit bow?Really?"
Archer shoots him 10 times
Tincan:"Oh no i lost 16 Hp!Not"

Archery needs a major boost.Plus I would perssonaly love to see More bows,Not to sure about more arrows but still
great idea.Oh and by the way I bet those people who complained about the archery were 2h spammers.But they shouldn't
change the archery animation I love it!
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Blondin on February 18, 2011, 12:04:41 pm
No buff needed, archery is fine like it is now. It stops every noob that want to go easy mod and pew pew without risk. As i said every time, the problem is not archery but the numbers of archers that spam servers.

Adding more bows is a good idea, more variety is always good, every one can choose what fit best to his style or to the situation, but it needs lot of work to balance.
I'm not sure that if every bow has a specialization it would work very well, ppl in cRPG will choose only the best one with the best build...
Btw i guess it's impossible to have one bow pierce damage and others in cut (but may be not impossible for cmp)
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Siiem on February 18, 2011, 12:11:35 pm
Learn to think critically about what you read.

I'm sorry, but this is an action game not an MMO. Where stereotype archers are powerfull hitters and melee just stand there and absorb damage. If archers continue with pierce it would be stupid and unfair. Atm archers who hit my sugarloaf helm I loose more then 50% hp, if it were to be pierce it would be instakill because pierce as far as I know is x3 to head. If something does 19 pierce plus added arrow damage, you got yourself one 1 hit killing machine. Learn to think yourself.

EDIT.
If there was a way to make helmets context sensetive like, if you hit a metal side of a helm without face protection it will do normal cut damage. But if it would hit an unprotected area it would be the dreaded x3 to head. But sadly I don't think that can be done in warband.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Mouse on February 18, 2011, 10:20:18 pm
I'm sorry, but this is an action game not an MMO. Where stereotype archers are powerfull hitters and melee just stand there and absorb damage. If archers continue with pierce it would be stupid and unfair. Atm archers who hit my sugarloaf helm I loose more then 50% hp, if it were to be pierce it would be instakill because pierce as far as I know is x3 to head. If something does 19 pierce plus added arrow damage, you got yourself one 1 hit killing machine. Learn to think yourself.

EDIT.
If there was a way to make helmets context sensetive like, if you hit a metal side of a helm without face protection it will do normal cut damage. But if it would hit an unprotected area it would be the dreaded x3 to head. But sadly I don't think that can be done in warband.

When I say Guild Wars, why are you incapable of separating one Interesting Idea out of that game and evaluating it on its own merits? Why do you think the mere mention of that game automatically means I want to turn cRPG into an MMORPG? You don't have to have played or even have liked the game to recognize how horizontal weapon balance is more interesting than vertical weapon balance.

And 26 pierce damage is a 1-hit killing machine? Really? Do you even know how this game works? You know that against black armor body shots would only do 1 more point of damage on average than the current strongbow with bodkins (31c)? It would actually be weaker against opponents with medium and light armor, and still weaker than other bows altogether (even against black armor) given that I proposed reducing the rate of fire.

So now it can kill plated knights with skillfully aimed shots to the head while other bows can't. But we made it slower than the other bows, just accurate enough for headshots (probably about where it is now, actually), and reduce the arrow speed to nerf it at longer ranges. Now it has an interesting unique role that no other bow has, but disadvantages that make another bow worth using under different circumstances. It will also be good for horse archers trying to take out tier 5+ horses, but worse against tier 2-4 horses and other archers (unless those silly archers wear black armor, I guess).

If you think that's a bad way to design a game, then we're going to have to just disagree. But I think if you carefully examine the best games out there you'll find that they are closer to what I am suggesting than the current state of cRPG where stat progression is almost entirely vertical.

If you don't think it's worth the effort to make this game better, that's fine too. Get bored and go find something else to play. I'm not even asking you to do the work, but I actually care about Warband. I made a lot of the first custom maps for ATS/cRPG, and I'm willing to put in some work to try and make it better over the long haul.

Also, this is not an meant to be an explicit balance thread. This is about making archery more interesting, diverse and fun. It's very annoying when people are like "archery doesn't need a buff, it's fine." Many of my suggestions are nerfs!
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: IG_Saint on February 19, 2011, 02:16:31 am
"archery doesn't need a buff, it's fine." Many of my suggestions are nerfs!

Archery doesn't need a nerf, it's fine.  :wink:

Seriously though, this thread is full of talk about balance and buff/nerf archery, what I see little talk of is whether or not the idea, namely varied choice in bows vs lineair progression in bows, is any good. The numbers, the details, they're unimportant to that idea. And I'll say it again, I like the idea.

On a different, but related note, anybody else feel that archery is one of the slowest class to get going? Usually I'm at least breaking even anywhere from around lvl 12-15. With archery I'm struggling at 17. 5/6 shots to kill someone in light armour? In the time it takes me to shoot those I could have just walked over there and oneshotted him with my bastard sword. Or am I just failing?
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: bruce on February 19, 2011, 02:41:24 am
On a different, but related note, anybody else feel that archery is one of the slowest class to get going?

Yes.... powerdraw gives 14% per level and bows and archery are balanced around higher PD rather then peasant levels, and therefore suck for low-levels.

Plus you need higher PD to use effective bows (which start with the khergit, but really get going with the strong / warbow - personally I used a 1x strongbow with 7 PD when I had my archer, satisfying damage output plus you get the added bonus of oneshotting most people with a melee weapon with 7 PS).
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Mouse on February 19, 2011, 03:18:55 am
Archery doesn't need a nerf, it's fine.  :wink:

Seriously though, this thread is full of talk about balance and buff/nerf archery, what I see little talk of is whether or not the idea, namely varied choice in bows vs lineair progression in bows, is any good. The numbers, the details, they're unimportant to that idea. And I'll say it again, I like the idea.

On a different, but related note, anybody else feel that archery is one of the slowest class to get going? Usually I'm at least breaking even anywhere from around lvl 12-15. With archery I'm struggling at 17. 5/6 shots to kill someone in light armour? In the time it takes me to shoot those I could have just walked over there and oneshotted him with my bastard sword. Or am I just failing?

When I get kicked out of ATS, I'm joining IG.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Grey on February 19, 2011, 02:19:43 pm
I don't even know what to say to this. It's a shining example of the worst of the cRPG community and it's obvious that I put far more thought into my post than you ever will.

Learn to think critically about what you read.

No, you may have put a lot of YOUR thought into your post. We dont all think at the same speed, obviously. It took me mere seconds to realise you have NO idea what warband is. Have a great day mate, I hope you like have a good time in GW2, since you are obviously going nowhere here.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Gorath on February 19, 2011, 07:06:43 pm
No, you may have put a lot of YOUR thought into your post. We dont all think at the same speed, obviously. It took me mere seconds to realise you have NO idea what warband is. Have a great day mate, I hope you like have a good time in GW2, since you are obviously going nowhere here.

FFS, you really don't understand english do you?  I mean this is just a huge reading comprehension fail right?  I'd hate to think you're just this stupid.
1)  Mouse has been playing Warband for a long long time, both native and cRPG.
2)  A game concept from one genre can be adapted and utilized by a different genre.
3)  We get it, you hate anything that's not an FPS.  Cool.  For the record, GW was one of the only MMO's to get PVP decent.
4)  Every game is a clickfest.  If you have a matrix chair and the ability to jack into the game then please share, otherwise  :rolleyes: @ you sir.
5)  If you had read what he was talking about you would have seen that there was nary a buff anywhere in his thoughts, only redesigns and nerfs.

And in conclusion: 
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Grey on February 19, 2011, 07:15:15 pm
FFS, you really don't understand english do you?  I mean this is just a huge reading comprehension fail right?  I'd hate to think you're just this stupid.
1)  Mouse has been playing Warband for a long long time, both native and cRPG.
2)  A game concept from one genre can be adapted and utilized by a different genre.
3)  We get it, you hate anything that's not an FPS.  Cool.  For the record, GW was one of the only MMO's to get PVP decent.
4)  Every game is a clickfest.  If you have a matrix chair and the ability to jack into the game then please share, otherwise  :rolleyes: @ you sir.
5)  If you had read what he was talking about you would have seen that there was nary a buff anywhere in his thoughts, only redesigns and nerfs.

And in conclusion: 
(click to show/hide)

No, I like LOADS of games. GW just happens to be really shit. And the pvp sucked. Also, your not trying to tell me you still play Warband with a mouse and keyboard?? Most of us got our neural links sorted YEARS ago....loser.

http://www.slipperybrick.com/2008/08/the-apple-ithink-concept/


You have great day Gorath, you!


ANYWAY: My point, which the OP ignored in his hurry to get UBERDEFENSIVE, was that there is NOT a linear progression among the bows. In stats, sure, in usage, NO. I have a lvl 30 archer with PD 3 and a hunting bow. He is MEGA accurate and can run away very fast. Then I have more normal 18/18 archer, with a warbow, that can 1hit clothies.

Since NO archer is going to effective untill he has approx 100 wpf and AT LEAST PD3, theres no usage realistically for the low end bows unless its for pure accuracy. The slow arrow travel from these bows is the drawback. The game HAS been made varied, and is not linear, unless you buy each bow as you level up. But this is a silly method that wastes your time and money, and will NOT help you get kills, will just make you a minor nuisance untill lvl 15-18.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: DarkFox on February 19, 2011, 07:33:12 pm
Good idea mouse.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Havoco on February 23, 2011, 01:42:22 am
Okay, you could then make a low and high tier. Ie.

Armor penetration bow-khergit bow(low tier),longbow( high tier)
fast arrow speed bows-nomad bow(""),war bow("")
fast reloading bows-short bow(""),strong bow("")
the intro bow with no specialty would be the hunting bow, obviously...

of course to make this work there should be small nerf to all specialty bows then a buff appropriately. Melée has speialty weapons, why shouldn't archers?suggestions? I don't think changing the req for using bows should be changed for this, it wouldn't make much of a difference.

Just thought of something with the HA, strong bow with fast reload might be a little OP, could make it so HA can only use low tiers?
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Mouse on February 24, 2011, 03:02:01 am
Okay, you could then make a low and high tier. Ie.

Armor penetration bow-khergit bow(low tier),longbow( high tier)
fast arrow speed bows-nomad bow(""),war bow("")
fast reloading bows-short bow(""),strong bow("")
the intro bow with no specialty would be the hunting bow, obviously...

of course to make this work there should be small nerf to all specialty bows then a buff appropriately. Melée has speialty weapons, why shouldn't archers?suggestions? I don't think changing the req for using bows should be changed for this, it wouldn't make much of a difference.

Just thought of something with the HA, strong bow with fast reload might be a little OP, could make it so HA can only use low tiers?

That's kind of what I thought of doing, but instead of "low tier vs high tier" I tried to consider them more "mounted tier vs foot tier," which is one reason I thought to make the short bow only useable on foot. Bows useable on horseback shouldn't be quite as good overall as bows exclusive to foot archers, but they should still have reasons to be used on foot.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Havoco on February 25, 2011, 12:15:08 am
I think they would still be used by progressing archers and if the HA were only allowed to use low tier bows then there would still be a mix. I think if HA stacked pd to 5 or 6 on this system they still could do good damage.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: joshko on March 04, 2011, 12:52:46 am
I like it a lot And as you said it would be nice (though not practicle) to see this done for every weapon. But if you get a positive response from the dev team I would not be opposed to creating a team to brainstorm and come up with ideas for other weapons as well.
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Miley on March 07, 2011, 02:19:47 am
Hey, it's Guild Wars. I've on-and-off played that for years. Lol.

I think we should get a few different skins for each tier of bow :D
Title: Re: Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]
Post by: Khalim on March 07, 2011, 04:49:55 pm
I think archery in general is okay.

I would like to see more high end bows, because actually there is only one useable bow(warbow). You can argue about the longbow, but thats it.

What I really dislike on archery is, that it does cut damage. I know, that heavy armour should be more protecting against archery, but I would have liked it, if there was piercedamage but less.

The most important part of archery is, that there should be more variation for bows. Bos which are euqually good, but have different advantages and disadvantages.