cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: zagibu on November 17, 2011, 02:13:46 am

Title: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: zagibu on November 17, 2011, 02:13:46 am
I've noticed that I die to this weapon a lot. When i look at the stats, I don't see anything special, it is fast, sure, but the damage is nothing unheard of, and the reach is terrible. Somehow I still get hit, even when I think I'm at a safe distance.

What do you guys think? Is it just me that has problems against this weapon? Or do I only imagine problems where a simple overdistribution of this weapon (mostly among ranged) is the cause of my frequent deaths?
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 17, 2011, 02:14:55 am
The only reason why you die to it a lot is because everyone and their mother uses it due to being just 1 slot. It is not OP, it is merely extremely accessible and thus common.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: zagibu on November 17, 2011, 02:39:56 am
Yeah, I thought this might be the case, but then i picked one up and noticed that I can also kill very well with it. I'm not really saying it's OP, but it seems to be much longer and harder hitting than the stats are making you believe.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Vibe on November 17, 2011, 08:59:23 am
30 blunt is not that bad actually. Loom it and it can hurt a lot with proper speed bonus and a headshot.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: slothscott on November 17, 2011, 09:46:43 am
Its weight is very high for its small size, I think that should be changed.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Digglez on November 17, 2011, 10:38:08 am
too fast & too heavy.  pick one or the other
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Spawny on November 17, 2011, 04:12:34 pm
It knocks you off your feet an aweful lot.

Knockdown= certain death. By the time you get up, they have hit you 2 or 3 times.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: BlackMilk on November 17, 2011, 05:09:51 pm
Remove knockdown, lower the weight.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Jarlek on November 17, 2011, 10:14:32 pm
It does too much damage for it's price and weight.

The reason it hit's you even when you think it shouldn't is because of the bonus reach gained by the 2h animations.

Also, just gonna leave here the 1h mace with roughly the same price for comparison...

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Seriously. The weight of this thing needs to be reduced a LOT! Also make it a 1h with 2h mode, like the langes messer, and not a 1h/2h.
I can understand that, compared to the 1h version, it has more damage, more speed, more weight, less difficulty, better animation... HOLY SHIT who thought THIS is reasonable? Jesus, give the 1h maces a buff or nerf the crap out of this fucker!
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Camaris on November 17, 2011, 11:29:25 pm
You know that the one hand mace can be used with a shield?
They dont have to be equal in stats.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Jarlek on November 18, 2011, 12:07:03 am
You know that the one hand mace can be used with a shield?
They dont have to be equal in stats.
You mean a shield that slows you down 50%, reduces your weapon speed and decreases the angle you can block in?

Yeah, you're right. That really is such a huge OP bonus...

/sarcasm.
Look, with alll the shield nerfs, not having a shield is now just as good as having one. When you have a shield you gain the ability to block projectiles, block couches and block from multiple directions. But, you also get reduced movement speed, reduced weapon speed and reduced block angle and reduced feinting potential. Some of these things are more important than others, but that varies for different persons. The point is, "you can use it with a shield" is no longer a valid argument because shields aren't powerfull anymore. You can still use them for what you need shields for, but the penalties for using one is big enough to make someone without a shield and with a shield equally effective.

PS: The 2h mace can be used with a shield so you fail anyway.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Camaris on November 18, 2011, 01:25:28 am
You mean a shield that slows you down 50%, reduces your weapon speed and decreases the angle you can block in?

Yeah, you're right. That really is such a huge OP bonus...

/sarcasm.
Look, with alll the shield nerfs, not having a shield is now just as good as having one. When you have a shield you gain the ability to block projectiles, block couches and block from multiple directions. But, you also get reduced movement speed, reduced weapon speed and reduced block angle and reduced feinting potential. Some of these things are more important than others, but that varies for different persons. The point is, "you can use it with a shield" is no longer a valid argument because shields aren't powerfull anymore. You can still use them for what you need shields for, but the penalties for using one is big enough to make someone without a shield and with a shield equally effective.

PS: The 2h mace can be used with a shield so you fail anyway.
If you do have this opinion just play 1h with no shield. Its harder then playing with a shield i can promise cause i did it one gen.
You talk like everybody who is using a shield is doing it to make the game harder.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Jarlek on November 18, 2011, 01:29:12 am
If you do have this opinion just play 1h with no shield. Its harder then playing with a shield i can promise cause i did it one gen.
You talk like everybody who is using a shield is doing it to make the game harder.
Someone here just fails at reading comprehension...
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: rustyspoon on November 18, 2011, 01:58:50 am
If you do have this opinion just play 1h with no shield. Its harder then playing with a shield i can promise cause i did it one gen.
You talk like everybody who is using a shield is doing it to make the game harder.

I totally disagree with this actually. I find that I am WAY more effective without a shield.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: zagibu on November 18, 2011, 08:16:17 pm
I'm glad that I'm not the only one seeing an issue here. Maybe lower the speed a bit and make it lighter to reduce knockdown chance? It would make sense that it's slower than weapons with a similar weight to length ratio, because the weight is mostly concentrated at the far end, leading to higher swing inertia.

I propose 95-97 speed and 2.3 - 2.5 kg weight, at a req of 9.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Bobthehero on November 18, 2011, 08:26:58 pm
I totally disagree with this actually. I find that I am WAY more effective without a shield.
Gotta agree with you there.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Draggon on November 18, 2011, 09:15:47 pm
I totally disagree with this actually. I find that I am WAY more effective without a shield.


About that you would not be shitting...
I've tried 3 different sword/board builds and all of them have been much less effective than my polearm, 2h, or even straight-up 1h builds.


There's nothing wrong with the 2h mace though.  I've been both hit by it and have used it.  It's short as fuck so it's hard to hit anyone with it unless you're right on top of them.  For me, it makes a great backup weapon vs fast-ass 1h-ers.  However, you're still at a disadvantage though due to the lack of reach.  The knockdown simply makes up for that.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Jarlek on November 19, 2011, 03:13:43 am


About that you would not be shitting...
I've tried 3 different sword/board builds and all of them have been much less effective than my polearm, 2h, or even straight-up 1h builds.


There's nothing wrong with the 2h mace though.  I've been both hit by it and have used it.  It's short as fuck so it's hard to hit anyone with it unless you're right on top of them.  For me, it makes a great backup weapon vs fast-ass 1h-ers.  However, you're still at a disadvantage though due to the lack of reach.  The knockdown simply makes up for that.

It's just as long as a normal 1h mace... and the animations favour it...
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: RamsesXXIIX on November 20, 2011, 02:20:36 am
You mean a shield that slows you down 50%, reduces your weapon speed and decreases the angle you can block in?

Yeah, you're right. That really is such a huge OP bonus...

/sarcasm.
Look, with alll the shield nerfs, not having a shield is now just as good as having one. When you have a shield you gain the ability to block projectiles, block couches and block from multiple directions. But, you also get reduced movement speed, reduced weapon speed and reduced block angle and reduced feinting potential. Some of these things are more important than others, but that varies for different persons. The point is, "you can use it with a shield" is no longer a valid argument because shields aren't powerfull anymore. You can still use them for what you need shields for, but the penalties for using one is big enough to make someone without a shield and with a shield equally effective.

PS: The 2h mace can be used with a shield so you fail anyway.

Wow, wow. Slow down before you start lying.

What tells you that using a shield slows you down 50% and reduces your weapon speed? As far as I know, both of these are untrue. The speed rating of a shield determines how fast you can move it from default standing position to blocking position as far as I know. It shouldn't reduce your weapon speed nor your feinting potential.

Furthermore, saying he's failing when you say the 2h mace can be used with a shield seems odd. Since it is a 2h weapon, it suffers a 35% damage and speed decrease, resulting in both speed and damage far lower than that of a 1h mace.

Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Jarlek on November 20, 2011, 04:44:58 am
Wow, wow. Slow down before you start lying.

What tells you that using a shield slows you down 50% and reduces your weapon speed? As far as I know, both of these are untrue. The speed rating of a shield determines how fast you can move it from default standing position to blocking position as far as I know. It shouldn't reduce your weapon speed nor your feinting potential.

Furthermore, saying he's failing when you say the 2h mace can be used with a shield seems odd. Since it is a 2h weapon, it suffers a 35% damage and speed decrease, resulting in both speed and damage far lower than that of a 1h mace.
The 50% was an exaggeration. That much should have been obvious. And yes, it does slow your swings down. As for feinting. Anyone can tell you that a guy with a shield is much easier to read than a guy without, when he is feinting. This is because of the obvious position of the shield, especially when you tap block to change attack direction. It is obvious that you canceled the swing and did something else.

And yes he is failing when he says a that the obvious advantage of the 1h maces compared to the 2h mace (actually a 1h/2h weapon), because that weapon can ALSO be used with a shield. Yeah, they suffer a roughly 30% speed and damage reduction (differs from weapon to weapon, also applies to polearms), but they can still be used with a shield.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: RamsesXXIIX on November 20, 2011, 10:27:16 am
The 50% was an exaggeration. That much should have been obvious. 1
And yes, it does slow your swings down. 2
As for feinting. Anyone can tell you that a guy with a shield is much easier to read than a guy without, when he is feinting. This is because of the obvious position of the shield, especially when you tap block to change attack direction. It is obvious that you canceled the swing and did something else.3

And yes he is failing when he says a that the obvious advantage of the 1h maces compared to the 2h mace (actually a 1h/2h weapon), because that weapon can ALSO be used with a shield. Yeah, they suffer a roughly 30% speed and damage reduction (differs from weapon to weapon, also applies to polearms), but they can still be used with a shield. 4


1: It is not only an exaggeration, its wrong. Evidence: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,118906.msg2872758.html#msg2872758 (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,118906.msg2872758.html#msg2872758)
(Its myth number 4)
The only movement speed malus you get is the standard weight penalty.

2: It does? According to the thread I just linked, it doesn't. (Myth number 3)

3: I agree that the larger size of the shield can make it harder, but I still find blocking good feinters with shields harder to block than polearms for example.

4: They don't suffer a roughly 30 % percentage, they suffer 35 %.
Lets look at the mace with the 35% malus:

(click to show/hide)

I don't know about you, but if it was me and I wanted to fight with a shield, I'd take the one-handed mace.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: owens on November 20, 2011, 10:50:41 am
Maybe the other maces that cost three times as much and are far slower and use two slots should get a buff?


It is bullshit that a weapon so short and small in comparison does only 3 less damage than its longer, heavier and more expensive cousins.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Jarlek on November 20, 2011, 01:20:24 pm

1: It is not only an exaggeration, its wrong. Evidence: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,118906.msg2872758.html#msg2872758 (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,118906.msg2872758.html#msg2872758)
(Its myth number 4)
The only movement speed malus you get is the standard weight penalty.

2: It does? According to the thread I just linked, it doesn't. (Myth number 3)

3: I agree that the larger size of the shield can make it harder, but I still find blocking good feinters with shields harder to block than polearms for example.

4: They don't suffer a roughly 30 % percentage, they suffer 35 %.
Lets look at the mace with the 35% malus:

(click to show/hide)

I don't know about you, but if it was me and I wanted to fight with a shield, I'd take the one-handed mace.
1. Ok, now you are being retarded. I never claimed the shield slowed you down because it's a shield. I said it slows you down just by having it (in the hand or on back, just the same), because they are bullshit heavy compared to everything else. Shields are have a very high weight, which slows you down a lot. It's not uncommon for shielders to move 2/3 or less compared to people with the same armour but a bigger weapon. This is annoying and unfair.

2. Try to use a slow speed, then try a 100 speed shield. The difference isn't the biggest one, but it is there. My guess is that this is something that was removed/changed/reworked in a version after that test in the thread you linked to, was made.

3. Thank you. And the good feinters with shield actually use this disadvantage as an advantage, since people don't expect people with shields to feint. It actually is possible to feint without making the shield go in a full block (in front of you, the obvious sign that the shielder is feinting), but it's easy and doesn't work all the time. Still can be used as a great surprise move, the same way the katana stab can be used to caught your opponent off guard.

4. Really? I remember waltF4's posts that he mentions it's not exactly a 35% reduction for every weapon, and that it is related to the speed of the weapon. Something along the shortened spear receives less of a nerf than the Heavy Lance and something. Can't find the thread, though...

Regardless. The 2h mace is still too good compared to the 1h versions. The reason we started to discuss shields was because of the most derpiest post made about "lulz it canz use a shieldz so it's so OP and good comparedz to it!" Even though the 2h mace can also be used with a shield. Anyway, as been proven here; having a shield is equally usefull as not having one, so the 2h mace should be equal in effectiveness-to-cost as the 1h maces.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Camaris on November 20, 2011, 05:44:02 pm
Quote
Regardless. The 2h mace is still too good compared to the 1h versions. The reason we started to discuss shields was because of the most derpiest post made about "lulz it canz use a shieldz so it's so OP and good comparedz to it!" Even though the 2h mace can also be used with a shield. Anyway, as been proven here; having a shield is equally usefull as not having one, so the 2h mace should be equal in effectiveness-to-cost as the 1h maces.

lol. Im totally with you. We make both the same but if you use 1h mace without shield you get a 35% penalty.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: rustyspoon on November 21, 2011, 05:21:31 am
2. Try to use a slow speed, then try a 100 speed shield. The difference isn't the biggest one, but it is there. My guess is that this is something that was removed/changed/reworked in a version after that test in the thread you linked to, was made.

Just wanted to jump in here, because this is a common misconception.

Shields DO NOT slow down your swing speed. Tested it a long time ago. However, shields DO slow down your footwork, which makes a HUGE difference in when your weapon connects with your opponent. So, the weight of your shield CAN affect when your weapon connects, but it has NO bearing on your swing speed.

Also, shield speed affects when your shield blocks, but has nothing to do with the blocking animation. A fast shield will block before the shield is fully raised. A slow shield blocks AFTER the shield is fully raised.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Vibe on November 21, 2011, 08:00:47 am
Light shield = faster blocking and more stun from heavy weapons. Does not affect swing speed.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: justme on November 21, 2011, 08:51:29 pm
just make it 2 slot weapon, and problem solved
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: KaleLord on November 21, 2011, 09:27:51 pm
just make it 2 slot weapon, and problem solved

Agreed
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: B3RS3RK on November 22, 2011, 06:08:28 pm
The Mace is very fine.

It is a really good Sideweapon for Archers/Crossbowman if they decide not to take a second quiver or pack of bolts, which is fine imo.

Any dedicated Melee Guy can kill them easily because they are so lightly armored and have no WPF in 2h(Mostly).They are still fast, but the mace is short and you are dedicated Melee, so fuck it.


I only find it fair that Archers and Crossbowmen with relatively few shots gain a higher chance of killing in Melee.

What I agree with is that the Mace is a Beast in skilled hands.A Very skilled player playing with the Mace oftenly tends to pwn withit everything he comes onto.But still the mace is very short so thats the disadvantage.

Also, Any Weapon is a Beast in very skilled hands.
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: BlackMilk on November 22, 2011, 06:41:37 pm
The Mace is very fine.

It is a really good Sideweapon for Archers/Crossbowman if they decide not to take a second quiver or pack of bolts, which is fine imo.

Any dedicated Melee Guy can kill them easily because they are so lightly armored and have no WPF in 2h(Mostly).They are still fast, but the mace is short and you are dedicated Melee, so fuck it.


I only find it fair that Archers and Crossbowmen with relatively few shots gain a higher chance of killing in Melee.

What I agree with is that the Mace is a Beast in skilled hands.A Very skilled player playing with the Mace oftenly tends to pwn withit everything he comes onto.But still the mace is very short so thats the disadvantage.

Also, Any Weapon is a Beast in very skilled hands.
Do you know Merc_DaveUKR?
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: Gurnisson on November 22, 2011, 06:44:18 pm
Mace is gay. I (ab)used it as crossbowman myself and know its power. :|
Title: Re: Let's talk about the 2h mace
Post by: B3RS3RK on November 22, 2011, 06:51:19 pm
Do you know Merc_DaveUKR?

Yes, why?

Do you want to imply he is too good with it?No he is not.