cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: BADPLAYERold on November 13, 2011, 10:51:29 pm
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These weapons are the best support weapons in the game, with extremely long range, decent pierce damage and polestun. This is supposed to be balanced by them not being very good in dueling situations (Can only thrust with them now, and the length can be a bit of a problem when fighting 1v1), however because they are only 2slot people using them can carry another polearm/2hander/1hander and 1slot shield so they can switch to that and have no disadvantage in 1v1s. I think using the best support weapons in the game should come at a cost, that cost being that you cannot bring another weapon with you to use when you don't have your team to hide behind.
Also Bamboo Spear as 3slots because if Long Spears/Pikes were changed to 4slots and the Bamboo Spear was still 2slots everyone would just switch to that and it wouldn't be much better. With 3slots you can still use a 1slot shield with it if you want to do some hopliting so it can be used for that still.
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I can understand 3 slots, but 4 slots seems overly harsh.
EDIT: You still ride that Cataphract, right?
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I can understand 3 slots, but 4 slots seems overly harsh.
EDIT: You still ride that Cataphract, right?
Yeah but i'm not making this suggestion as cavalry, all I have to do as cavalry is avoid them and i'm fine (and even when I do get reared up by them, as you said I ride a cataphract so it doesn't do much :lol:). When I play as infantry though there is no getting away, you can't get into a group fight without being stabbed by 3 pikes/long spears and the only real counter is using one yourself.
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i'd be fine with 3 or 4 slots if dmg was actually HIGHER than shit like awlpikes
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Yeah but i'm not making this suggestion as cavalry, all I have to do as cavalry is avoid them and i'm fine (and even when I do get reared up by them, as you said I ride a cataphract so it doesn't do much :lol:). When I play as infantry though there is no getting away, you can't get into a group fight without being stabbed by 3 pikes/long spears and the only real counter is using one yourself.
Agreed, people will just say "hurf durf block down", but when they are coming from multiple directions, on top of having people with non stab weapons attacking you from each side, and not being able to block due to pole stun, it just gets overly retarded trying to do anything on foot depending if the pike squads are on the enemy team
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its alright, hoplite is more fun anyways
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everyone just uses pikes and becs for when they get in 1vs1, unsheathable pikes didn't really fix the pikespam problem at all
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just make them unbalanced and slower. A pole weapon thats 12ft long should not be balanced
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i use l awlpike, and im fine with 3 or 4 slots..
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Prefer 3 slots on all of them. One-handers should be possible to carry as back-up.
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I'm in favor of making weapons much more different AND make people want to carry multiple weapons for use in different scenarios.
I see where you want this to go, the pike IS too nice when you still can bring a main weapon that can do almost everything. So make it 3 slots, so they can take an inferior backup weapon (1h without shield or 1-slot 2h/pole), increase the damage of them and make them unbalanced.
Seems good?
EDIT: Oh, and add crusthrough. Wouldn't really work against infantry because of the low speed, but would be devestating against horsemen because of the speed bonus. Just to fix that silly phantom block or for when you hit them as they swirv away. Yes, I am 1h&shield cav and want this. All for greater variety of weapons!
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I would support 4 slots on the Pike (It is the longest weapon in the game), and 3 slot usage on Long spears. A one or two point damage increase would help balance it out.
Note: The pike is already one of the slowest weapons in the game, not sure how a speed reduction would help.
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As a dedicated pikeman, I am all for this. I would be fine with either 3 or 4 slots, I just dont like people who use it to get easy kills and then pull out a bec when shit gets serious.
Would love to see this. :D
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3 slots
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I agree. Nerf ranged.
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I'd be more happy simply removing polestun, rather then heap multiple nerfs on it.
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3 slots on all of them.
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Prefer 3 slots on all of them.
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As a dedicated pikeman, I am all for this. I would be fine with either 3 or 4 slots, I just dont like people who use it to get easy kills and then pull out a bec when shit gets serious.
Would love to see this. :D
any shot that shik or a dev can stat there idea about this?
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Yep, 3 slots.
4 is too much, and ruins the basic "Pikeman" theme, where you can at least have a back up 1h on your hip.
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i dont think pikes are a big problem, annoying sometimes but i dont think they're breaking melee, i'd support making them 3 slots though, mostly to eliminate the pike/bec combo
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If you take a secondary weapon with a pike or longspear it would make sense if it were a 1hander. As a frequent longspear user, I advocate them both being made 3 slot. (I even use a 1hander as a sidearm despite having only proficiency in polearms)
I think, though, an even more potent fix would be to make nearly every polearm unsheathable. From a support standpoint, polearms win out against other weapon classes. The selection they have available to them is also the most diverse... why should it be, then, that you can take advantage of that diversity on a near constant basis, by carrying a different type of weapon on your back? There should be a choice between good support while using a main polearm and a more one-on-one closeup fighting style.
Perhaps this would make hybrid polearms more common (for a 2hander to put on your back) but ooooh well, I don't really see speccing for diversity as a big deal, as long as there is an investment involved beyond picking the one class that has diversity available to it by default.
Side-note: since the bamboo spear is useable with a shield, keeping it 2-slot would make sense, since you could then carry a 1hander and shield with it. Its lower damage than a longspear and massively lower reach than either of the others don't make it as much of a problem, in my experience. I mean, it still has an overhead attack, how often does that really present anymore problem than the longspear does, in a support role?
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Or you can just take blocking w/longspear, pikes away again
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The only problem with this in my opinion is that it would be an indirect buff to cav... Will see less pikes to counter cav won't we? Not many weapons to rear horses that are long and sheathable (i guess awlpike).
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The only problem with this in my opinion is that it would be an indirect buff to cav... Will see less pikes to counter cav won't we? Not many weapons to rear horses that are long and sheathable (i guess awlpike).
Thats okay we will still have the 20+ archers on each teams with rus bows/horn bows and bodkins range spamming us
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3 slots on those would be nice. I don't like how it is currently where someone can have a fantastic support weapon AND a fantastic personal weapon at the same time.
As someone who uses a long maul a lot, (3 slots) I support this.
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I do not think making it 4 or 3 slots would fix the problem. And there actually is no problem. Just you see a lot of pikemen running around, guess what? I see lot of archers, xbowers (both of which manage to 1shot my currently specced char without bigger hassle). I say make bows more slots, so they cannot carry so much ammo and have to choose what to shoot and not carry another badass weapon to smack you when you reach them.
see what i did? If you would want to see this implemented, then why not to make flat ratios on length = slots? Like, under 110 1 slot, 111-120 2 slots, 121-130 three slots and all above 4?
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The slots for EVERY weapon should be based on length not damage (Long maul 3 slots scythe aka weapons with 180+ length 2 slots only) so yes some weapons NEED to be 3 slots to compensate their big length.
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The slots for EVERY weapon should be based on length not damage (Long maul 3 slots scythe aka weapons with 180+ length 2 slots only) so yes some weapons NEED to be 3 slots to compensate their big length.
Or weight :)
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Yep, 3 slots.
4 is too much, and ruins the basic "Pikeman" theme, where you can at least have a back up 1h on your hip.
There are so many 0 slot weapon Christo... you can have 4 slots Pike and sickle, and hammer, and torch. Master of all trades.
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There are so many 0 slot weapon Christo... you can have 4 slots Pike and sickle, and hammer, and torch. Master of all trades.
That's actually not possible. Two unsheathable weapons. But change that torch for a KHYBER KNIFE OF AWESOMENESS and your fine :D
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nah, pikemen with 108 speed KHYBER KNIFE definitely OP. He can stop horse with pike and shred horse\horseman with khyber knife in no time.
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nah, pikemen with 108 speed KHYBER KNIFE definitely OP. He can stop horse with pike and shred horse\horseman with khyber knife in no time.
Do not judge the KHYBER KNIFE by it's speed! Judge it by it's FUCKING COOLEST UNSHEATH ANIMATION EVVA! Seriously, equipping this weapon is so BADASS that I want to do it ALL the time! The long dagger might be cheaper and slightly better, but the pure awesomeness of the drawing animation makes me take the khyber knife ALL the time :D
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This is a joke right? 3 Slots I can understand. (As long as the one handed swords stay 1 slot.. ) Otherwise there's not way to be a accurate Pikeman. (For which we still need a cuirass)
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The slots for EVERY weapon should be based on length not damage (Long maul 3 slots scythe aka weapons with 180+ length 2 slots only) so yes some weapons NEED to be 3 slots to compensate their big length.
If this was so, one of the most famous load-outs in the Medieval era would not be usable. Sword, Shield and Lance.
Although I do agree with making Pikes 3 slot.
Although it actually does not make that much sense, since you cannot sheath the weapon. But it would stop pikemen taking massive beefy two handers for backup.
Edit:
I'd rather have them made 3 slots, but make them sheathable (as long as you can see it on your back), make it slow you down quite a bit when sheathed, but also make it so you can not block while using a pike, in addition to a small damage buff. This should apply for long spears too, but to make long spears slightly more appealing, have them be 2 slot or slow you down less when sheathed.
What do you guys think?
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If this was so, one of the most famous load-outs in the Medieval era would not be usable. Sword, Shield and Lance.
Although I do agree with making Pikes 3 slot.
Although it actually does not make that much sense, since you cannot sheath the weapon. But it would stop pikemen taking massive beefy two handers for backup.
Edit:
I'd rather have them made 3 slots, but make them sheathable (as long as you can see it on your back), make it slow you down quite a bit when sheathed, but also make it so you can not block while using a pike, in addition to a small damage buff. This should apply for long spears too, but to make long spears slightly more appealing, have them be 2 slot or slow you down less when sheathed.
What do you guys think?
Sounds good. Sheathable but unblockable pikes with a bit more damage that slows you down when it's sheathed? Yeah, seems a balanced change.
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yeah, small buff to pike damage (8-10 points) is just what we all need.
also, please, make accurate historical pikemen cuirasse. It must be unpenetrable for arrows\bolts when pike equipped.
sarcasm off
Instead make «Real» stab for this weapon. It's impossible to stab someone at 0-2m distance with such long weapon.
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yeah, small buff to pike damage (8-10 points) is just what we all need.
also, please, make accurate historical pikemen cuirasse. It must be unpenetrable for arrows\bolts when pike equipped.
sarcasm off
Instead make «Real» stab for this weapon. It's impossible to stab someone at 0-2m distance with such long weapon.
That is why if you removed blocking with this weapon, people wouldn't even try to stab people at 0-2m distance, instead they would switch to a smaller weapon. But to balance this, and stop pikes disappearing completely, a buff of 2-3 damage and the ability to sheath it would be needed.
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That is why if you removed blocking with this weapon, people wouldn't even try to stab people at 0-2m distance, instead they would switch to a smaller weapon. But to balance this, and stop pikes disappearing completely, a buff of 2-3 damage and the ability to sheath it would be needed.
You take away blocking on the Pike/Long spear and it will be the end of those weapons being used as infantry support for the vast majority of the people using them. They would then be completely a anti-cav weapon at that point.
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It shouldn't be sheathed. But increase of damage in return of not blocking, might work. Pikeman really wouldn't fight using a pike one on one. However we should get a Pike brace ability in return! :P (It already exists)
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WPF above 150 should reduce needed slots.
2-Handed Sword -> Wpf 150 in 2h -> 1 Slot
just highjacking the thread ;)
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I think you'd have to be a pretty big idiot to not be able to block a sideswing with a 5-8 foot piece of wood. Overheads would also be pretty easy, but I can see thrusts being an issue. No polestun and 3 slots would be more than enough nerfing, why remove block too?
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You take away blocking on the Pike/Long spear and it will be the end of those weapons being used as infantry support for the vast majority of the people using them. They would then be completely a anti-cav weapon at that point.
It would actually make the weapon ONLY used for infantry support and cavalry and not able to get kills 1v1 as easily as it does.
The speed/damage/length ratio of those weapons are off the charts, hence why you see all the prostar players running around with them now. I would also like to see the long awlpike included in this.
Pikes are supposed to suck 1v1, its hard enough with a short weapon to even get near them in a group let alone get a chance to attack without being turned into swiss cheese. At least if they can't block then people rushing pikes will get 1 swing in before they die. If they remove the ability to block keep the stats the same and keep it a 2 slot weapon to allow for backup weapons, also keep it non-sheathable.
I think you'd have to be a pretty big idiot to not be able to block a sideswing with a 5-8 foot piece of wood. Overheads would also be pretty easy, but I can see thrusts being an issue. No polestun and 3 slots would be more than enough nerfing, why remove block too?
If you want to use realism argument then:
Pikes weigh a lot and are really long and clumsy weapons. Normally they are stabbed into the ground with the user only holding it up for charging enemies to get impaled on. Blocking with one is nearly non-existant. The M&B version of a pike spin 360 face stab at 2 foot range doesn't exist, infact if you can get a pike type weapon that meets the specs, and can successfully jump 360 and stab something 2 feet away from you with it I will allow you the luxury of punching me square in the nose.
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Actually blocking would be possible, other pikes that is. Mmm, maybe just keep the block for stab. Make it 3 slot. Give Pike Brace ability.
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That is why if you removed blocking with this weapon, people wouldn't even try to stab people at 0-2m distance, instead they would switch to a smaller weapon. But to balance this, and stop pikes disappearing completely, a buff of 2-3 damage and the ability to sheath it would be needed.
I feel that removing blocking from pikes would make players who can consistently block attacks less effective, while players who cannot would be largely unaffected.
The primary issue with the pikes is that they are really easy for a mediocre player to use effectively in group combat (compared to other weapons). I can't speak for anybody else, but I personally don't have any issue with good players such as Datsy and Hudson racking up kills with them.
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Agree for 3 slots for all 3 weapons.
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Aye, 3 slots
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I think a heavy speed reduction would be better suited then making it 3 slots.
And for the love of god make it so that only the tip of the spear can get hits and not the whole bloody thing.