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Strategus => Strategus Issues => Topic started by: Keshian on November 13, 2011, 04:46:33 pm

Title: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Keshian on November 13, 2011, 04:46:33 pm
Recently fought a battle where the enemy retreated with 400 tickets left.  They lost 300 and the enemy gained 300, which basically eradicated all the enemy's losses.  75% near the end of a battle is too high a maximum (just imagine autoretreat when run out of time).  25% is devasating enough.  Not sure if chadz and Co. have played with the numbers enough, but its kind of ridiculous that if you don't lose every one of your tickets, then your enemy's troops get almost fully replenished.  You already lose all your gear and then to add insult to injury to give them all your troops???


Can you guys take a nother look at this and come up with something less game-breaking?
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Dehitay on November 13, 2011, 06:41:51 pm
Having the forced auto-retreat cost you any tickets is a bad idea in my opinion. I say if auto retreat is forced, you should keep everything you have left. And then if you want, attack again with that force. It's only voluntary retreats that should cost you tickets and equipment.

Btw, what exactly is the formula for the cost of a retreat? I remember reading during the last strategus, that the dev team wanted to make it based on how long the battle went on. I originally thought it was just 50%, but that definitely wasn't the case with the Tulbuk defense.
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Digglez on November 13, 2011, 06:59:29 pm
i dont get why the troops goto the enemy, they should be destroyed...they are cowardly conscripts that are deserting their army to go home.

Losing half remaining troops & equipment would seem like a much better retreat mechanic
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Slamz on November 13, 2011, 08:19:18 pm
i dont get why the troops goto the enemy, they should be destroyed...

I agree with this.  I would consider something like:
25% destroyed (the ones that vamoosed or were killed trying to vamoose)
25% given to the winner (the ones you captured that switched to your side, similar to single player)
50% returned to the retreating army


Maybe it could even be a factor of army speed.  Like the above values are the base but the chances are modified based on army speed.  Retreating army is faster = more of them are returned.  Retreating army is slower = more of them are destroyed and captured (disregarding quick march).
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: chadz on November 13, 2011, 08:55:06 pm
needs more info.

attacker or defender retreated, how many troops did it start with on both sides, at what time did the retreat happen. there's many things influencing that variable.
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Mannhammer on November 13, 2011, 09:21:32 pm
needs more info.

attacker or defender retreated, how many troops did it start with on both sides, at what time did the retreat happen. there's many things influencing that variable.

The Battle for Tulbuk
1) Attacker Retreated.
2) Starting Attacker Troops (1508).
3) Starting Defender Troops(1921).
4) Attacker sounded retreat 63 min into the battle.
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Matey on November 13, 2011, 09:39:16 pm
just to clarify, mannhammer does mean that the enemy intentionally retreated, as opposed to running out of time and automatically retreating.
also, the enemy was down to 400 troops when they retreated and after the battle had only 100 left.
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: PhantomZero on November 13, 2011, 11:46:52 pm
Why the hell does the winner gain retreating troops anyways? Equipment, fine, but why troops? Wouldn't the retreating troops just desert and go back home? Or side with their former faction if they ever came into battle again?
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Digglez on November 13, 2011, 11:50:09 pm
I agree with this.  I would consider something like:
25% destroyed (the ones that vamoosed or were killed trying to vamoose)
25% are taken prisoner by winner and ransomed for 5-10g each
50% returned to the retreating army


Maybe it could even be a factor of army speed.  Like the above values are the base but the chances are modified based on army speed.  Retreating army is faster = more of them are returned.  Retreating army is slower = more of them are destroyed and captured (disregarding quick march).

^^^
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Dehitay on November 14, 2011, 01:07:41 am
just to clarify, mannhammer does mean that the enemy intentionally retreated, as opposed to running out of time and automatically retreating.
also, the enemy was down to 400 troops when they retreated and after the battle had only 100 left.
I was under the impression that they ran out of time and automatically had to retreat. Has anybody from Hospitaller told us that they purposefully retreated?
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Matey on November 14, 2011, 01:27:55 am
@ Mannhammer   - We sound the retreat it wasnt the timer.

Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Dehitay on November 14, 2011, 04:03:23 am
Well, Fallen just routed an army when they had 33 troops left and got all of 1 troop out of the battle. Considering it used to be 50%, I'm assuming something changed. Was there a thread about this that I missed?

Either way, can somebody just post out what the retreat formula is?
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Keshian on November 14, 2011, 04:19:56 am
Its probably based on how early in the battle the retreat happened.  But it should amx out at 25-50% not 75% which gets too ridiculous.
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Vibe on November 14, 2011, 09:08:05 am
10% to join the enemy army, 30% to run away scared.
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: dodnet on November 14, 2011, 11:03:47 am
If you were taken prisoner in a fight you start fighting for the enemy? How is that realistic?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Vibe on November 14, 2011, 11:04:41 am
If you were taken prisoner in a fight you start fighting for the enemy? How is that realistic?  :rolleyes:

In time, you can join the army and/or face death. Just as you can recruit soldiers from prisoners in native Warband? Why would this not be realistic?
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: dodnet on November 14, 2011, 11:17:16 am
I wouldn't want to fight in an army, which consists of former enemies in large parts. At least as long as I don't have eyes in the back  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Vibe on November 14, 2011, 11:18:15 am
I wouldn't want to fight in an army, which consists of former enemies in large parts. At least as long as I don't have eyes in the back  :mrgreen:

Rot in the dungeons or fight, your choice.
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Matey on November 14, 2011, 11:25:44 am
actually capturing soldiers was super common in many areas. Look at Romance of the Three Kingdom era china. Also look at Japanese warfare... the average soldier was basically a conscript... they didnt give 2 shits who they fought for most of the time... it was be a soldier or be dead. Of course soldiers who did believe in the cause of their leader/nation/whatever were generally a lot more motivated, useful, and less likely to run away at the first sign of combat :D
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: dodnet on November 14, 2011, 11:26:36 am
Well at least now we have an excuse for teamhits and teamkills in strat. That ticket was a turncoat who was seeking for revenge  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Gheritarish le Loki on November 14, 2011, 12:55:28 pm
actually capturing soldiers was super common in many areas. Look at Romance of the Three Kingdom era china. Also look at Japanese warfare... the average soldier was basically a conscript... they didnt give 2 shits who they fought for most of the time... it was be a soldier or be dead. Of course soldiers who did believe in the cause of their leader/nation/whatever were generally a lot more motivated, useful, and less likely to run away at the first sign of combat :D

Just like for most of the Pirates, they didn't choose to be embarked on a boat!
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Bramd on November 21, 2011, 01:00:39 am
actually capturing soldiers was super common in many areas. Look at Romance of the Three Kingdom era china. Also look at Japanese warfare... the average soldier was basically a conscript... they didnt give 2 shits who they fought for most of the time... it was be a soldier or be dead. Of course soldiers who did believe in the cause of their leader/nation/whatever were generally a lot more motivated, useful, and less likely to run away at the first sign of combat :D

The Romans did something similar as the empire expanded...  By the height of the Roman Empire the army was almost entirely foreigners from the lands they had conquered.
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Aseldo on November 21, 2011, 08:49:02 am
Having the forced auto-retreat cost you any tickets is a bad idea in my opinion. I say if auto retreat is forced, you should keep everything you have left. And then if you want, attack again with that force. It's only voluntary retreats that should cost you tickets and equipment.

This is a bad idea because attackers might just chill knowing they won't lose anything to auto-retreat, there has to be an incentive to make attackers actually attacking.
Title: Re: Retreat troop conversion way too high
Post by: Dehitay on November 21, 2011, 06:22:11 pm
This is a bad idea because attackers might just chill knowing they won't lose anything to auto-retreat, there has to be an incentive to make attackers actually attacking.
I believe the troop attrition cost is still in effect. If attackers go too long without getting a kill, they lose a certain amount of tickets every minute. However, I can't verify this is actually still in effect because every battle I've seen to date, they attackers never wait that long. It will be more obvious when castle seiges pop up. That's where you really see the delay in attacking