cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Thax on November 07, 2011, 06:36:40 am
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All ranged other than crossbow bolts should glance off plate 50% of the time. Crossbows were the only weapon that had more than half a chance at puncturing through full plate (which is why they were outlawed by the pope). Right now plate provides nothing extra in the way of protection for the repair cost and agility loss.
Each bow would have its own percentage to glance. Starting at 50%. Against plate.
If this is unacceptable then its time to start discussing a reduction in dmg against full plate. Even a level 34-35 (level crutch) with max powerdraw shouldnt be 2 shotting plate mail that is 3x loomed.
And where is the archer nerf in strat?
P.S. I love archers.
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I hope i do not look like a smart ass but why do you not invest into a shield?
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You obviously don't have enough str and IF in your turd of plate.
I had a arbalest shoot my 4 times yesturday then I got whiffle batted to death.
The bath tub of soak is powerful enough. If your going to wear plate you should have 24+str, if you have less your a knave, a filthy drunken *hiccup* knave!
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Thax
So you wanna make invincible agi\whore in lame plate armor?
Do you wanna also onehitting sword? No? Why?
Maybe you wanna horse with 300 blunt charge damage? No? Why?
My decision to your problem - make IF requirements to armor. Transitional armor and above must have 8 IF as requirement.
Or just remove plate armor from this mode. All this «Non native items» - Plate armors, restated xbows, restated bec, german-danish-flamberge swords... it's just balance breaking stuff.
Also, bonus from herloomed armor must be nerfed. This is ridiculous advantage. +21 to armor for lordly Gothic plate with bevor? Bullshit.
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Thax
+21 to armor for lordly Gothic plate with bevor? Bullshit.
His mothers asshole, I tragedy.
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+7 to head armor
+7 to body armor
+7 to leg armor
________________
+21
Simple enough for Tzar?
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+7 to head armor
+7 to body armor
+7 to leg armor
________________
+21
Simple enough for Tzar?
so you mad because the over expensive worthless peice of shit armor gives u +7 head armor usage?
Also it aint that many people who does it i only see 3 tin cans a day during my playtime
People like Georges who runs around in fully tin can armor 24/7 is not every1 else´s problem just because he can now use the market place to found hes armor crutch thats a problem with the market not armor looms....
But how will u stop people from selling loom points to found heavy armor??
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George run with this armors from august 2010, and was effective enough even without any looms. To be honest it was best time for this mode.
Even with +4 bonus for lordly gothic with bevor, your armor will still have best stats in a game.
I'm just do not like this childish modding. Let's mode sumthin top-tier and top-tier only. Let's make new beauty armor with good model and 80 base armor. Do not make this game looks like another WOW.
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Do not make this game looks like another WOW.
And to avoid that you suggest to nerf archer?
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No he suggested nerf pretty much everything and only have native items.
So basically, we should just go back to playing native.
Nothing at the moment is particularly game breaking. I think it's pretty well balanced at the moment.
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archer very very bad !!
injustice ! !
I love Archer but
a very difficult game, archer and hit hard
Hi.
Its signed,
I can only approved,
Umbra
I think the solution for this would be buffing ranged.
His mothers asshole, I tragedy.
BUFF RANGED!!!!111one
There. Pick the one you like
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You forgot your signature...
Idlewild
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Archers are effective on strat because all clans buy worst armors. If archery nerf again this time we cant damage on plated armors. I have 8PD and +3 Horn Bow and +3 Bodkin Arrow, i can kill Heraldic Transitional Armour with 9 shot (But they can kill me only one swing "epic"). And i don't exaggerate; sometimes my arrows bounces on armor with this build... I think nerfs are enoughly, please buy better armors for strat.
Look at other games; total war, age of series, stronghold ;) Strategy deciding factor has been always archers. U cant remove archery from game, archery is most deadly class on real world (but not here).
All castle walls (European, Turkis, Asian, Arabian...) like this
___ ___ ___
| | | | | |
__| | __| | __| | __
BECAUSE, castle builders know; archery is deadly and necessary.
"Nerf archery for only strat ?" no pls, its kill mod. Archers are adjust their aims for arrow speed. I know "what am i need angle for distance." And any change need minimum one week readjustment time. I can shot +250m with fine adjustment but i work on this 2 month. Any change remove all adjusments.
Sorry for English, thanks for read.
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All ranged other than crossbow bolts should glance off plate 50% of the time. Crossbows were the only weapon that had more than half a chance at puncturing through full plate (which is why they were outlawed by the pope). Right now plate provides nothing extra in the way of protection for the repair cost and agility loss.
Plate armor doesn't really work like real armor in this mod. Instead of completely stopping damage it's basically just extra hp for your character. Kind sucks when archers can tear through it but, meh... The values have been changed from native so that glances are much less common in crpg. But even in native archers can tear you up unless you had all lordly stuff and were at a distance.
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Or use a shield, because in Native you didn't had to invest points in shield, which was awesome.
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You guys have clearly lost the route of this thread. Thax was saying about nerfing archers damage against plate.
Why the heck do you think that Xbows were made, as knights amount increased? Yes, it was to pierce that freaking thick plate, which normal (even pierching) arrows couldn't do.
You guys like to praise that Warband is most realistic ancient "simulator", but I can't see this happening as normal archer can kill a KNIGHT?!
Wake up, how many times you have heard from stories/documents (other than Robin Hood) that normal peasantarcher have killed fully equipped knight? I havent neither.
I can get the idea that Enlighsmens longbows could kill knights, but hey, they had always over 2000 archers ready to fire death upon incoming knights, ofcourse that amount got easily find those little gaps in armor.
Straight shot with piercing arrow just can't go trough plate, it its impossible!
"Armour penetration"
It has been suggested that the bodkin came into its own as a means of penetrating armour, but research by the Royal Armouries has found no hardened bodkin points, though only two bodkin points were actually tested, not a statistically relevant number. Bodkins did, however, have greater ability to pierce mail armour than broadheads, and historical accounts do speak of bodkin arrows shot from close range piercing plate armour. Broadheads were made from steel, sometimes with hardened edges, but were more often used against lightly armoured men or horses than against an armoured adversary.
In a modern test, a direct hit from a steel bodkin point penetrated Damascus chain armour, although at point blank range. However, the test was conducted without a padded jack or gambeson, which was layered cloth armor worn over heavier armor for protection against projectiles, as it was known to stop even heavy arrows. Furthermore, and despite the author's assertion, the penetration ability of the arrow would decline according to the distance it has traveled due to drag. Lastly, a human body standing will give, another factor not accounted for in this experiment.
Some recent tests have demonstrated that needle bodkins could penetrate all but heavy steel plate armour; one test used padded "jack" armour, coat of plates, iron and steel mail and steel plate. A needle bodkin penetrated every type, but may not have been able to inflict a lethal injury behind plate.
Here is text from wikipedia for all you whiners, who want to say that it could be possible.
It is damn annoying to fight as a 2 hander, when you know that even one good shot from archer can deal over half of damage (8 if for me).
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I don't know who keeps repeating this shit, but crossbows could not pierce plate. Crossbows were not made to pierce plate, they were made because you can aim any amount of time without needing strength, and with proper reloading helps (levers or even winchblocks) even untrained weaklings (aka. peasants) can use them.
Good plate could even withstand early firearms.
Also, chainmail was much more resistant than most people think. Riveted chainmail could transform a deadly spear thrust into a blunt attack. And you could certainly not "cut" through chainmail at all.
BUT: We are talking about cRPG, and not reality. I think it's pretty well balanced. Maybe buff armors some, I still think they are not worth what they cost. I never see more than 10% wearing anything heavier than a transitional. Kind of strange, considering the OP claims of some people.
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Why the heck do you think that Xbows were made, as knights amount increased?
Because militia with xbows was much cheaper than trained archers.
Also «Knight» doesnt mean «Plate crutcher». Armor for battle and armor for tournament was not same.
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I don't know who keeps repeating this shit, but crossbows could not pierce plate.
Your claim made me curious enough to search on Youtube for an armor test vs crossbows...
and I could not find any.
There's armor tests vs bow & arrows, even Spanish conquistador armor vs Atlatls but I could not find any crossbow vs armor tests. I don't know what to make of that.
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archery is most deadly class on real world
not.
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:lol: History. Fun stuff. Pope and all.
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A standard arbalest, not counting steel pavise ones, a wooden one mind you, averages two thousand newtons of pull...
That will put a dent in most things. Not pierce plate my ass...
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Oh god seriously, if we want to take the realism route I'm fairly sure not too many people will fight very well with an arrow piercing one of their limbs. Or with one of their limbs cut with a sword.
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Warband just isn't "good enough" to simulate all this shiet. I agree that arrows shouldn't pierce plated armor. But the plated armor didn't provide full cover. And this game can't provide us the "weak spots" in armors. Face was really vulnerable for example, since the knight had so see through his helmet :lol: as well as armpits which weren't protected by plate at all. So the reason why plate doesn't offer perfect protections against arrows is Game Balance.
This game lacks many other things as well. Armors weight for example: Full plated knight with Plate Armor, chainmail and padded armor all weight so much that should the knight lose his balance and fall down, he couldn't get up without help :D Imagine this in warband. 1 agi peasant dodging arrows and pushing full plate tincans down :lol: The rage would be hilarious. " My 80k gold armor is all fucked up. A level 2 peasant killed me by pushing me down and poking me to death with a pitchfork!"
Basicly a situation like this is like semi- rock-paper-scissors. Archers can 1 shot peasants (altho the peasant can kill the archer if he gets close). Peasant however, can just run to the knight and push him down so he can't get up, unless an enemy peasant comes and helps the knight to get back up (the knight can swing his sword and Choppa-Choppa the peasant if he's not carefull). And finally, knights are pretty much invulnerale to arrows :D
Peasants were cheap. Archers weren't that cheap. Tincans were expensive. Then came the crossbows:
Peasants were cheap + crossbows were cheap + (xbow > tincan) = win -> tincans try to voteban xbow'ers out, but they get less than 51% from all the votes.
Later on came the firearms:
Peasants were cheap + cannons(collateral damage and bonus against fortifications) + flintlock weapons = tincans GTX and become musketeers :lol:
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Peasants were cheap + cannons(collateral damage and bonus against fortifications) + flintlock weapons = tincans GTX and become musketeers :lol:
True, look how far this has gotten us, now we only fight with ranged (guns, bombs, rockets, ...) :(
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So we all conclude that Ranged is OP and needs a nerf, obviously. *trololololo*
Yes, stop this before
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You guys have clearly lost the route of this thread. Thax was saying about nerfing archers damage against plate.
Why the heck do you think that Xbows were made, as knights amount increased? Yes, it was to pierce that freaking thick plate, which normal (even pierching) arrows couldn't do.
You guys like to praise that Warband is most realistic ancient "simulator", but I can't see this happening as normal archer can kill a KNIGHT?!
Wake up, how many times you have heard from stories/documents (other than Robin Hood) that normal peasantarcher have killed fully equipped knight? I havent neither.
I can get the idea that Enlighsmens longbows could kill knights, but hey, they had always over 2000 archers ready to fire death upon incoming knights, ofcourse that amount got easily find those little gaps in armor.
Straight shot with piercing arrow just can't go trough plate, it its impossible!
"Armour penetration"
It has been suggested that the bodkin came into its own as a means of penetrating armour, but research by the Royal Armouries has found no hardened bodkin points, though only two bodkin points were actually tested, not a statistically relevant number. Bodkins did, however, have greater ability to pierce mail armour than broadheads, and historical accounts do speak of bodkin arrows shot from close range piercing plate armour. Broadheads were made from steel, sometimes with hardened edges, but were more often used against lightly armoured men or horses than against an armoured adversary.
In a modern test, a direct hit from a steel bodkin point penetrated Damascus chain armour, although at point blank range. However, the test was conducted without a padded jack or gambeson, which was layered cloth armor worn over heavier armor for protection against projectiles, as it was known to stop even heavy arrows. Furthermore, and despite the author's assertion, the penetration ability of the arrow would decline according to the distance it has traveled due to drag. Lastly, a human body standing will give, another factor not accounted for in this experiment.
Some recent tests have demonstrated that needle bodkins could penetrate all but heavy steel plate armour; one test used padded "jack" armour, coat of plates, iron and steel mail and steel plate. A needle bodkin penetrated every type, but may not have been able to inflict a lethal injury behind plate.
Here is text from wikipedia for all you whiners, who want to say that it could be possible.
It is damn annoying to fight as a 2 hander, when you know that even one good shot from archer can deal over half of damage (8 if for me).
Why do people continue with this garbage!!! Because you want it to be doesn't mean it is!!! Here is an experiment for you; Fill a 5 gal bucket with sand, Take a .45 caliber pistol and a bow of your choice (use a bodkin type arrow though,) and shoot at the bucket...you might be surprised at what you pull out the other side.
These arguments against bodkin penetration are flawed. I guarantee you that a bodkin fired from the moon has a much better chance of penetrating plate than a flat sword, which is good for nothing but cutting. The bodkins power is in its tip (read surface area) and momentum. The surface area on the swords blade...no comparison. Unless you run around thrusting ( :oops:) all the time your sword is almost useless. Don't take my word for it. Go to the local flea market, buy a cheap sword, and then attack your car (with swings.) No success??? Ok now try thrusts? (Disclaimer: The author is in no way responsible for an idiot actually conducting this experiment on his or anyone elses vehicle) Remember a car skin is really thin. Now shoot it with a bodkin. To save you the time; the sword my put a few scratches or dents in the car...the arrow will be found inside!!!
P.S. it is common belief that if a knight fell he couldn't get up.....please research that assertion before posting it as gospel.
Longbowmen were required to practice constantly, BY LAW. They were deadly accurate, expensively maintained, and crucial on the field. Xbows were used because they were cheaper in the long run and could be used by anybody with very little if any training (who is purpoerted to have killed Richard the Lionheart.)
Here are some websites, in addition to others I've posted in other posts (please inform yourself before spreading information...and no I won't weed through them to find the info you need.)
http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html
http://archeryreport.com/2011/01/heavy-vs-light-arrows-speed-power/
http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Dr.-Ed-Ashby-W26.aspx
http://archeryreport.com/articles/
p.s. anything is possible though, I once shot a hog and hit his armor plate (very thick slab of bone covering his shoulder), didn't really hurt him but my aluminum arrow bounced and when I retrieved it I found it was bent :shock:
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A standard arbalest, not counting steel pavise ones, a wooden one mind you, averages two thousand newtons of pull...
That will put a dent in most things. Not pierce plate my ass...
I SAY BIG NUMBERS AND DONT UNDERSTAND HOW PHYSICS WORK!
fixed, also summarizes most of this thread
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I always have to laugh at those "armor tests" where they fire at a tightly held plate of perfectly flat metal from an accurate inverse surface normal direction at a distance of a few meters. I laugh, because that's exactly how ranged weapons were used in battle. Except they never test them with historically accurate rainbow unicorns as ammunition.
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FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO MORE REALISM ARGUMENTS, THEY DON'T MAKE A GAME THAT THE CURRENT COMMUNITY WANT TO PLAY.
So, yes, crossbows, longbows and peasants with kitchen knives fucked over plate. no one cares.
If theres a knight and four peasant run up to him with knives, he should insta-die.
If I over head with my bill hook, it should disarm you and have a 50% of breaking your arm.
If I run you over with a horse you should die.
If you pike my horse it should catapult over the pike and crush you.
If I shoot your horse in the leg it should throw you off.
If I hit your crappy little axe with a bar mace it should crush past it, no matter the direction.
Strength shouldn't be determined by skill points, you should be assigned a genetic profile, which includes your natural HDL and LDL ratio and metabolism, and then you should go weight lift. Then you should go talk to the trainer, then you should go make money as a black smith and then forge your own weapon and kill ap ig and an the leather for your armour then go down the mines to et some ore, smelt the ore and attempt to craft some armour. After the 20th go you'd make an armour. This should be done in real time so you can start playing after about 20 years. also when you die, you have to start again. ISN'T REALISM FUN!
The list is endless.
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If theres a knight and four peasant run up to him with knives, he should insta-die.
If I over head with my bill hook, it should disarm you and have a 50% of breaking your arm.
If I run you over with a horse you should die.
If you pike my horse it should catapult over the pike and crush you.
If I shoot your horse in the leg it should throw you off.
If I hit your crappy little axe with a bar mace it should crush past it, no matter the direction.
Strength shouldn't be determined by skill points, you should be assigned a genetic profile, which includes your natural HDL and LDL ratio and metabolism, and then you should go weight lift. Then you should go talk to the trainer, then you should go make money as a black smith and then forge your own weapon and kill ap ig and an the leather for your armour then go down the mines to et some ore, smelt the ore and attempt to craft some armour. After the 20th go you'd make an armour. This should be done in real time so you can start playing after about 20 years. also when you die, you have to start again.
All valid suggestions, you should make a thread for each one, so it will get the deserved attention.
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All valid suggestions, you should make a thread for each one, so it will get the deserved attention.
But the majority does not want those implemented. Balance is more important than realism in games
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FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO MORE REALISM ARGUMENTS, THEY DON'T MAKE A GAME THAT THE CURRENT COMMUNITY WANT TO PLAY.
The majority does not seem to know what they want, that's why there is discussions.
Realism is a kind of balance, not the opposite.
My little stick for this everburning fire. (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,19564.0.html)
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buff 1h!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUFF!!!!!!!
I want my Arab Cav sword do like 90cut, it not much plaase. you should because mkae one h more like 2h OP -_- nad pole with it stun that make you die before you hit back with up1h that need bbuff.
Also when is arrow chambering coming in? I remember a very inteligent gent on this forum suggested it a while ago. I also remember everyone saying, great idea, your awesome, have my looms and my babies. I took the looms and sold the babies.
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I always have to laugh at those "armor tests" where they fire at a tightly held plate of perfectly flat metal from an accurate inverse surface normal direction at a distance of a few meters. I laugh, because that's exactly how ranged weapons were used in battle. Except they never test them with historically accurate rainbow unicorns as ammunition.
how does one use a rainbow unicorn as ammunition on a bow? in a demolisher cannon maybe, but on a bow?
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Why don't we make arrows out of water? Then we could shoot the plate guys until they stop due to rust :/
And we could make the bows out of lightning or electricity in general so that the archer hurts himself when he shoots :)
Oh and I think we should add some more power to crossbows. It's unrealistc that the bolt doesn't come out of a person's back to hit a second target :/
:rolleyes: