cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Diomedes on October 27, 2011, 03:44:28 am

Title: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: Diomedes on October 27, 2011, 03:44:28 am
I've been playing some Native multiplayer recently (for the first time, as a matter of fact) and I really loved playing siege without ladders.  There seemed to be generally more entrances into castles in Native maps, as a consequence, but the absence of deployable ladders was a salient and enjoyable feature.  Instead of expecting every choke point to be trivially avoided by ladders, the defenders more easily coordinated - without chat - to defend castles.  Even when playing with <50 players on a server, the defenders and attackers seemed to have an even rate of winning maps.  On cRPG siege servers, in my limited experience, <60 players mean defenders have a far greater chance of losing on any map.

But I want to know what you think.  Please, if you can, play a few rounds on Native siege for comparison before commenting.
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: Digglez on October 27, 2011, 04:44:16 am
I'd rather there be NO map ladders, ladders taking more slots, slower to deploy & attacker spawn slower~
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: Erathsmus on October 27, 2011, 04:49:34 am
I do agree that Ladders do make attacking much more easier than it should be at times. But I do like the idea of battles being dynamic.

I do not think ladders should be removed, I think defenders should be able to place ladder barricades to compensate for these ladder inbalances.

I know that this doesn't fully solve the problem, but still...I enjoy a different experience every now and then.
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: Casimir on October 27, 2011, 11:11:28 am
In native great maul are far less common and long mauls dotn exist, hence why holding shoke points occurs much less.
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 27, 2011, 05:45:34 pm
Siege without ladders would suck :O

But as suggested a couple of times the amount of ladders should be limited to a very small number, maybe 4 ladders per team or something
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: Zisa on October 27, 2011, 05:53:12 pm
The whole argument about dynamics.. people figure the best places for ladders and instead of a 'dynamic' map you have a terribly imbalanced one. But I do not play a lot of seige.
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: Diomedes on October 27, 2011, 06:08:41 pm
My comment about choke points was actually about how, in Native, choke points are more easily held by more defenders.  Without the possibility of every flat surface being scaled defenders are much more common-sensical about where they position themselves.  Additionally, as a happy byproduct, many maps are more streamlined because player tactics become somewhat more predictable.

One of my favourite non-Native siege maps is the wooden castle by the sea (the one that has some fires, a broken gate, and a huge facing wall).  It's cooercive enough for attackers that ladder placement is very specific and, unless the need is dire, optional.  I like it because it has lots of routes around the interior buildings and walls and lots of little aesthetic perks.  What I find holds the map back, though, is that defenders can't leave the interior keep without significantly burdening the defenders on the wall.  Because the facing wall must always be guarded against ladders, there are frankly too few players allowed into the main areas of the town to make it a good scrimming area.  Though there are the occasional Rambos, the zone is, in effect, relegated to being scenery.
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: Grok on October 27, 2011, 06:51:54 pm
I'd agree.  Ladders seem to provide far too much of an advantage to the attacking side.  Being able to get to the flag in just a matter of seconds is really no fun on either side. 

And, as much as defending the flag makes perfect sense strategically, it's definitely more fun to defend the walls, then fall back and defend a gate and to eventually have to fall back to the flag in a final scrum.
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: Diomedes on October 28, 2011, 05:28:08 am
I'm bumping this for more opinions.  It would really alter siege in a potentially cool way.
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: zagibu on October 28, 2011, 12:49:45 pm
We need map statistics first. Then they can remove the ladders for 1 week and compare the statistics to what they were before. Then decide which is better.
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: Dexxtaa on October 28, 2011, 03:52:31 pm
Shorten the spawn time on defenders, they have to make the trek to the flag anyway.

If the spawn time was shorter, ladders would play a larger part, but balances out the fact that the defenders have to be everywhere at once.
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on October 28, 2011, 05:01:10 pm
Allow ladders to be pushed down (dealing fall damage to the units on them), and damaging the ladders health... it should take about half of the time it takes for an attacker to climb the ladder for a defender to push it down... (already placed ladders should also be removed, instead there should be 1-5 equipable ladders in the siege camp that respawns 5sec after their previus version was destroyed...
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: Diomedes on October 28, 2011, 05:19:38 pm
We need map statistics first. Then they can remove the ladders for 1 week and compare the statistics to what they were before. Then decide which is better.

What kind of stats?  Win/Loss?
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: Digglez on October 28, 2011, 09:02:22 pm
What kind of stats?  Win/Loss?

Yes, to see how imbalanced offense is

Something like this

http://steampowered.com/status/tf2/tf2_stats.php
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: zagibu on October 29, 2011, 02:07:07 am
Yes, this would help a lot. Make a pre-change and a post-change comparison, then decide if ladders stay in or not. Two weeks should be enough to collect the data, I think. Maybe three.
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: Tyrell on October 30, 2011, 02:44:20 pm
I don't see why you'd remove an item that is key to siege. Imagine trying to siege a castle without ladders?

Maybe if they added a battering ram I wouldn't mind no ladders.
Title: Re: Remove ladders from Siege
Post by: zagibu on October 31, 2011, 12:41:20 am
Most castles already have ladders in fixed positions.