cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: CaptainQuantum on October 19, 2011, 11:43:39 pm
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Now first of all, this is not asking for a 2h buff at all, just if a 2h stab bounces it shouldn't mean you can't block for a ridiculous amount of time. The stun to be unable to block is silly, yet it is only partly the reason I ask for this. Second note is that I don't want a huge in-flux of people saying that I am lobbying for a major 2h buff, I am not.
The other reason being that it seems for 2h and many polearm users aswell, the only swings used are side swings, it makes melee in crpg very boring indeed. I would like to see the other attacks used a little more often because all I see now is backpedalling and hiltslashing. Even I myself find that once in a duel I rarely use overheads unless I am chamber blocking, so all I ask is for the other swings to be incentivised in some way. Overhead is fine in my opinion for 2h, but stabs on 2h are too risky and so I only use them when chasing down people or for horse stabbing. A change for poles to make them less side swing oriented may be needed, but from what I have seen they are fine for stab incentives. I must say I have nothing against hiltslashing, just that I am getting tired of seeing it being the only tactic in a player's arsenal. I ask of course for other people's opinions (constructive of course).
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Wait, whaaaat? you want a 2h thrust buff? Those thrusts are ridiculous, they may bounce if you time it wrong but they last forever and in my experience hit during almost all of the time you do the animation. And i see alot of 2h'ers using thrusts not just sideswings. So are you asking for a insta-hit thrust or what? im just saying the 2h thrusts are probably the best thrust in the game, hoplite thrusts are pretty equal tho but still.
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I wasn't asking for a damage buff or animation change, just if it does glance your not left with a chance if a blow comes immediately. I was just asking that the stun be reduced to that if your other swings glance or are blocked, another example of how long the recovery from a stab is that an overhead chamber of a stab is unblockable. They don't last forever either, I used to think so aswell until I got used to the duration, not forgetting how slow they are to reach optimal range leaves them easy to block or chamber block. Also 2h have the best stab in the game? The highest stab damage of 2h unloomed is 26p on a German GS (which is built for stabbing), which is equal to the pierce on a shortened spear. I do not want a damage buff, just the stun duration shouldn't give free hits. Others do use stabs, just in battle once in a group people just hiltslash until they die or win, which is not the way crpg should be heading.
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I think the animation Should be changed back to the insta-stab that it WAS. The fact that a 2h stab lasts for something like 1.5 seconds, and if it hits at any time during that, it does full damage, is ridiculous. Pertaining to how long the the stun lasts, I'd say only use it when you know you can land the stab. You don't side swing next to a wall, you don't overhand with a team mate behind you (unless you're unaware or a Dick), and you don't poke unless the situation calls for it. Apologies in advance if this post seems snobby or harsh. Not the intention.
-Zylo
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The problem is with "knowing" when to stab is that you can't truly "know", because the animation for the stab is so slow if it is backpedalled is hits later. So backpedalling is made even harder to beat because it nets free hits due to constant glancing from the stabs. I am guessing that the bring the instastab was a joke, because I never want that back, it was stupid. All I do want is that crpg doesn't become sideswing fests because the overhead is too slow and gets outspammed, and the stab stops you from blocking if backpedalled. Seriously go on a duel server, you will see lots of people only using hiltslashes, same for battle. I have seen many good players just realise every other tactic for melee is useless in comparison to hiltslashing, and start using only hiltslashes. I prefer crpg to native because of the balance between classes, but recently I have been seeing native to have much more fluent and diverse melee combat.
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Well it is only if you get a very bad timing on the thrust you wont be able to block, and like he said it deals full damage during almost all of the attack wich is pretty hard to time with some polearms actually.
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2h stab active time must be shortened. 2h stab is active for so long it's fucking ridiculous. No need to change it back to lolstab machinegun like it was prepatch, just make it last less time.
On the other hand, this part might be biased as I am a 2h, but damage on 2h stab is quite weak compared to polearm stab (lol poleaxe 31p stab, german greatsword 26p stab). Not to mention polestab is pretty much instant.
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Maybe the stab does need a damage buff, since the polearm-2h stabs are balanced in my opinion (poles have shorter stab animation but it's shorter, 2h have longer stab but higher range), so why not balance the poles damage for stab with that of the stabbing 2h. However I am not lobbying for that, just that the stun on 2h stab glance is silly, something feels really wrong about melee combat in crpg compared to native. Thats why I want to see more stabs and overheads instead of constant side swing spam, this won't fix all of the issues with melee in crpg, but will be a step in the right direction. The 2h stab does not deal damage in all stab time, its the same percentage as a polearm stab stun I am guessing. Just the dead zone for 2h stab is larger due to the animation being longer. I don't think the stab duration should be lowered too much since that either makes it reach full length faster, which is not a good idea, or you have to shorten the range of the animation, which would mean that 2h has even less versatility compared to polearms.
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Nerf poleaxes pierce to around 28p, so it will be more equal to the 2h ones. I doesnt feel right when a poleaxe does more thrust damage than a spear :/
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All stabs are too long, can be dragged to tap opponent to death, including lances from horse.
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I think this is not about animation(that machine gun was really retarded) or damage, but about stun after your stab was blocked or glance and this need to be lowered (for all weapons not only 2h), so less cheap free hits and less random duel.
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All stabs are too long, can be dragged to tap opponent to death, including lances from horse.
That's just the best Taleworlds could manage for hit boxes, this happened with the overheads before chadz put floor bouncing in.
What Kato said is essentially all I asked for, but maybe the poleaxes need to be brought in line too, since they are duel weapons which can break shields, they don't need an amazing stab too.
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All stabs are too long, can be dragged to tap opponent to death, including lances from horse.
^ this is abuse by many players they use weapons that are only overhead and stab and somehow beat the shit out of everyone with spins and what not
if this was fixed i think people would not be able to kill people by tapping would be better (at least imo i hate pikes long spears and owl pikes)
and idk about the damage tweaks i would have to REALLY look at the stats of both classes.but alot of pole weapons stab surprisingly sucks ass when id does not really make sense why(maybe a nerf idk the two im thinking about is hafted blade and glaive which a lot of people hate)
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Nerfing the 2h stab will only serve to further reduce combat depth. You really want more 'block, attack, block, attack' snorefests?
Combat should be made deeper, not shallower. The absolute last thing we need is more weapon nerfs.
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Nerfing the 2h stab will only serve to further reduce combat depth. You really want more 'block, attack, block, attack' snorefests?
Combat should be made deeper, not shallower. The absolute last thing we need is more weapon nerfs.
^yes but no one agrees on buffs either?
i hate nerf cycles as well but no one wants to buff the other classes lol
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That's just the best Taleworlds could manage for hit boxes, this happened with the overheads before chadz put floor bouncing in.
What Kato said is essentially all I asked for, but maybe the poleaxes need to be brought in line too, since they are duel weapons which can break shields, they don't need an amazing stab too.
huh?
floor bouncing is overly punitive - unless you like fighting on a slope and watching attacks go through people. And no, for FUCK's sake, dragging an overhead into an opponent is NOT gone - wtf class are you playing?
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It's still possible, but harder, not to mention useless in comparison with other techniques you could spend time learning instead since most people wait for the swing to hit or bounce anyway. I digress, so lets get back to topic.
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but damage on 2h stab is quite weak compared to polearm stab (lol poleaxe 31p stab, german greatsword 26p stab). Not to mention polestab is pretty much instant.
only if you get the "lol wait i slide my sword in your head even though its gone right next to your face" off
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Lactose what you speak of is the "lolstab" which is the only way to use a stab now since it's so slow, and with the polearm stabs speed the spin stab on it is far more deadly and harder to detect because it chambers behind the body instead of on level with the head. Still all I made this thread for was to stop the "I hiltslash because it's the only tactic I need to know" crap, stab stun is silly and I think removal would stop servers from being hiltslash fests for melee.
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Hmmm...I dont think were playing the same game, because the 2handed sword stab is still the most powerful move inn the game.
Sure as mentioned if you whiff/glance the stun for stab is slightly longer than sideswings, but wouldent you be equally hit anyways if you glanced a swing and the opponent was attacking instead of blocking?
It still has the range on most polearms shorter than 150 reach, even though its own is 120. It still fast, you can also still lolspin around all you want.
Atleast the majority of players I see utilize and seem to prefer the stab over swings. As do I.
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Actually speaking in terms of ranges a Danish stab has 204 range (sword range+80), whereas it's plus 14 for poles. My issue is due to speed bonus from backpedal the stab will always glance, and the amount of stun is proportional to animation length. Since the stab animation for 2h is ~2* as long the stun is ~2 times as long as other swings, which translates to stab chambered by an overhead being unblockable. Polearm stabs should not do more damage than 2h stabs since the animations are completely balanced by their duration and difficulty to detect, but as I said this thread is not about that it's about making the 2h stab less risky. And of course to reduce the amount of hiltslash only duelists which is ruining dueling fun in crpg.
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That's bs Quant, I recently made a 2h alt and the stab is definitively not twice as slow.
I actually don't see a single problem, you can make the 2h stabs fast just by turning, and they're long.
Polesttun is bs, but they're removing that (thank god!)
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Retarded duration and length compared to polearm stab. I think it's fair as it is.
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Make the thrusts do cut damage. That would actually make sense since most of the stabs nowadays are cuts that can't be blocked as cuts. Derp-herp-darth-herp.
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Polearms stun
2h stabs are magic
Shielders swing like hummingbirds fly
Tweaking is fine but changing this setup dramatically would require rebalancing the whole set. I agree with Saul that gameplay should be deeper rather than more shallow, but it's unfortunate when deeply skilled players can walk over less skilled players because they use some rather absurd weapon mechanics. The 2h stab, for example, continues well after the sword has actually stopped stabbing. Rather than just being powerful, it's also magical. The polearm stun, too, can allow chains of hits with very powerful weapons (cp: Bec). And some 1h swings, even when burdened by a shield, can come become almost unblockable unless one is reading what the shielder is going to do (cp: Matey ಠ_ಠ).
It's in these crazy cases, which are mostly weapon-specific, that we should be tweaking. IMO threads about "Fixing 2h stab" mistake the problem for a problem of weapon kind, rather than of specific case.
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I agree I may of mistitled the post, but my point still stands.
Dezi a stab is not made faster by spinning, it actually makes it hit later just with more speed bonus. As for the twice thing, I am just quoting what Baldrider said a while ago. The main point is that the stun needs to be reduced on the stab for 2h, since a spammer just happens to overhead when I am stabbing nets the spammer a free kill? That seems against the normal way of crpg.
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Hmmm, I don't know. I have not experienced the long stun to be a big problem. Actually, I can't remember the stab bouncing very often. Maybe that's because I usually play with at least 8 PS.
Overall, the 2h stab is still the best stab in the game, IMO. Maybe it's okay if it has a small downside?
And on the topic of adjusting stab for polearms...if you do, raise the stab of spears. If polestun is remedied, noone will ever use the regular spears anymore, if they are not buffed somehow.
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Overall, the 2h stab is still the best stab in the game, IMO. Maybe it's okay if it has a small downside?
2h stab is the weakest in the game - DAMAGE WISE:
German Greatsword - 26 pierce
Long Espada Eslavona - 28 pierce
Poleaxe - 31 pierce
+ has that uberlong stun when someone blocks you. I wouldn't really call it a small downside.
And on the topic of adjusting stab for polearms...if you do, raise the stab of spears. If polestun is remedied, noone will ever use the regular spears anymore, if they are not buffed somehow.
I beg to differ. Spear + shield is still a good combo, no matter the stun.
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2h stab is fine
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2h stab has a quite longe recovery time. But weakest stab ingame?
Hmm, here i have my good, old knife with oh 21 pierce stab damage.
Ok, this was a bit unfair because it is a slashing weapon. Lets take a look at my stabbing toys.
Look my short sword with 26 pierce, yeah it is a tie, or my dagger 25 pierce, well it beat at least the danish one.
The main issue is that you can drag the point in your enemy without any problems and not the strange animation timing.
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2h stab has a quite longe recovery time. But weakest stab ingame?
Hmm, here i have my good, old knife with oh 21 pierce stab damage.
Ok, this was a bit unfair because it is a slashing weapon. Lets take a look at my stabbing toys.
Look my short sword with 26 pierce, yeah it is a tie, or my dagger 25 pierce, well it beat at least the danish one.
The main issue is that you can drag the point in your enemy without any problems and not the strange animation timing.
What is this crap I'm reading?
I was comparing top pierce damage weapons of each type. What were you doing, I really want to know.
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2h stab is the weakest in the game:
German Greatsword - 26 pierce
Long Espada Eslavona - 28 pierce
Poleaxe - 31 pierce
At least they almost never bounce. You have to be in an extremely shitty position to let a 2h slash or stab bounce, it's just ridiculous. I'm just tired of those 2h lobbyists who already have the most powerful ez-mode class and still complain about everything. I get absurd bounces with my side sword or other thrust-1hs, while you have the lol-stab and other exploitable game mechanic-fails.
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At least they almost never bounce. You have to be in an extremely shitty position to let a 2h slash or stab bounce, it's just ridiculous. I'm just tired of those 2h lobbyists who already have the most powerful ez-mode class and still complain about everything. I get absurd bounces with my side sword or other thrust-1hs, while you have the lol-stab and other exploitable game mechanic-fails.
If this was targeted at me:
First off, I'm not lobbying for ANY 2h buff. Second, I am lobbying for 1h stab glance fix actually (go thru my posts). Third, 2h stab is the weakest DAMAGE WISE. Fixed my post to reflect this thought before more people go screaming "2h lobbyist" and whatnot.
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To be fair, the delayed lightsaber stabs are pretty annoying to deal with.
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If this was targeted at me:
First off, I'm not lobbying for ANY 2h buff. Second, I am lobbying for 1h stab glance fix actually (go thru my posts). Third, 2h stab is the weakest DAMAGE WISE. Fixed my post to reflect this thought before more people go screaming "2h lobbyist" and whatnot.
It was not directly targeted at you.
And damage is only one factor. Animation and weight are also important and that's what makes 2h stabs strong. The pike has "only" 24 pierce damage, but it's thrust is devastating cause of the weight and animation. Sure, the 30 pierce thrust of the espada eslavona is powerful too, but only 1 weight and the animation make it bounce quite often.
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It was not directly targeted at you.
And damage is only one factor. Animation and weight are also important and that's what makes 2h stabs strong. The pike has "only" 24 pierce damage, but it's thrust is devastating cause of the weight and animation. Sure, the 30 pierce thrust of the espada eslavona is powerful too, but only 1 weight and the animation make it bounce quite often.
True. But stab is not what makes 2h strong, it's more the fast animations and hiltslashing. 2h stab was balanced LONG ago. Except this longer active time makes it even stupider.
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Using my 2h, I can hit just as fast as my polearm guy by turning my stab. What the animation change balanced out is that I'm not able to hit at fully extended range with my 2h lightning fast.
And I honestly consider that a fair tradeoff BUT, I think 2h in general should get like +1/+2 pts of stab damage. Some of the glances against heavier armor are quite silly, but then, armor is OP in melee atm imo.
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What is this crap I'm reading?
I was comparing top pierce damage weapons of each type. What were you doing, I really want to know.
No you have picked two examples which are supposed to prove your claims, and i did the same.
But ok, if you want to change the rules, then in this case the high tier long espada eslavona has only 27 cut damage one of the weakest swing attacks, which can even wiff at peasant armour.
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Using my 2h, I can hit just as fast as my polearm guy by turning my stab. What the animation change balanced out is that I'm not able to hit at fully extended range with my 2h lightning fast.
And I honestly consider that a fair tradeoff BUT, I think 2h in general should get like +1/+2 pts of stab damage. Some of the glances against heavier armor are quite silly, but then, armor is OP in melee atm imo.
That's what heavy armor does! Geez, complaining about not hurting heavy armor with a sword.
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That's what heavy armor does! Geez, complaining about not hurting heavy armor with a sword.
Well, then why does armor sucks vs. ranged in comparison?
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,16201.0.html
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2h stab is fine
All stabs are horseshit when they can be curveballs or swept through an opponent.
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No you have picked two examples which are supposed to prove your claims, and i did the same.
But ok, if you want to change the rules, then in this case the high tier long espada eslavona has only 27 cut damage one of the weakest swing attacks, which can even wiff at peasant armour.
This discussion was about stab, if I recall correctly, not swing.
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Ok, then i take an high tier nordic champion sword with a stab damage of 21p.
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Ok, then i take an high tier nordic champion sword with a stab damage of 21p.
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AGAIN:
I was comparing top stab damage weapons of all types. Is NCS a top stab damage 1h? No it isn't.
I don't know what you're trying to pull here, but you're failing.
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I must say I never cared for the damage, yes it could do with being balanced with the pole stabs. But what I want is for stabs to be less risky, because seeing people only use side swings and hiltslash all day is really killing my melee fun now. Backpedalling too kills the fun but thats harder to fix even if it is more retarded.
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personally i would like to see what the fighting would be without spin stabs n lul stabs were nerfed..
^all in all is that not what we are talking about? seeing how stabs go hand n hand with these
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personally i would like to see what the fighting would be without spin stabs n lul stabs were nerfed..
^all in all is that not what we are talking about? seeing how stabs go hand n hand with these
wat
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I must say I never cared for the damage, yes it could do with being balanced with the pole stabs. But what I want is for stabs to be less risky, because seeing people only use side swings and hiltslash all day is really killing my melee fun now. Backpedalling too kills the fun but thats harder to fix even if it is more retarded.
I see people doing overheads and stabs all the time.. i get most of my kills with stabs and overheads as well, since most people have the easiest time blocking side swings, and overheads are easy to maneuver so you can get around someones block, not to mention the 2h stab has some crazy reach and hang time. I personally like the "stun" you get for bouncing a stab off someone, punishes you for stabbing when someone is inside your range, you just need to swivel with the stab like you would with a pike/awlpike, and you can land it almost 90% of the time as long as they aren't face hugging you. Definitely agree that the 2h stab is still the most powerful in game, maybe not in terms of damage, but the extreme range combined with the hang time more then make up for the bounce stun and how slow the stab is, no need for a buff or nerf...
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2h stab is fine
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I see people doing overheads and stabs all the time.
I see people doing the "helicopter" all the time. They only interrupt their left-to-right-swing frenzy if someone actually blocks their spam. Some of them even walk around like Quasimodo if there's no enemy around at all... When their little brains indicate, that their enemy can block and he has a shorter weapon, they get the command to backpedal. Kinda funny to watch. :D
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There's a couple notorious circus fighters on NA with their 2 handed swords.
Ryden being one of them, fighting him's fucking ridiculous and completely boring, side swing, you block, then he prepares a stab and start spinning in the absolute most incoherent pattern ever for a good 5 seconds at which point you just drop your block because of the sheer stupidity and boredom.
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wat
whenever someone trys to stab me with any weapon the usually do the stupid lulstab or the spin stab
so to me it seems thy go hand in hand with stabs
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There's a couple notorious circus fighters on NA with their 2 handed swords.
Ryden being one of them, fighting him's fucking ridiculous and completely boring, side swing, you block, then he prepares a stab and start spinning in the absolute most incoherent pattern ever for a good 5 seconds at which point you just drop your block because of the sheer stupidity and boredom.
How about you just attack him instead?
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whenever someone trys to stab me with any weapon the usually do the stupid lulstab or the spin stab
so to me it seems thy go hand in hand with stabs
Yes, because stabs bounce and perfectly reasonable ranges if not spinthrusted, specially 1h.
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Yes, because stabs bounce and perfectly reasonable ranges if not spinthrusted, specially 1h.
AGREED ON 1H dear god you have to be a dancing fool to not glance lol
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I see people doing the "helicopter" all the time. They only interrupt their left-to-right-swing frenzy if someone actually blocks their spam. Some of them even walk around like Quasimodo if there's no enemy around at all... When their little brains indicate, that their enemy can block and he has a shorter weapon, they get the command to backpedal. Kinda funny to watch. :D
Imagine that.... 2hs using their "little brains" to use RANGE to their advantage by back peddling, do you expect someone with a great sword to fight like hes using a short sword? With 2hs its all about footwork, trying to use your range or get around someones block.... i wish i knew what you meant by the helicopter tho.
There's a couple notorious circus fighters on NA with their 2 handed swords.
Ryden being one of them, fighting him's fucking ridiculous and completely boring, side swing, you block, then he prepares a stab and start spinning in the absolute most incoherent pattern ever for a good 5 seconds at which point you just drop your block because of the sheer stupidity and boredom.
You realize that spin is just to throw you off right?.... if you down block you'll block the stab even with his "circus spin". I fight ryden all the time, and hes hella fun to fight imo, has such a unique style. Game would be boring and way to easy if everyone fought the exact same way
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Imagine that.... 2hs using their "little brains" to use RANGE to their advantage by back peddling, do you expect someone with a great sword to fight like hes using a short sword? With 2hs its all about footwork, trying to use your range or get around someones block.... i wish i knew what you meant by the helicopter tho.
"Using range to your advantage" and "backpeddling" isn't the same.
And by helicopter I mean those guys who do the left-to-right swing constantly and walk in circles while they do it. U can usually see that in sieges, when there's a big clusterfuck going on.
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I must say I never cared for the damage, yes it could do with being balanced with the pole stabs.
Why? It doesn't make sense. Polearms are MADE for stabbing, why should swords be equally good at it? If you want to balance things, reduce polearms SWING damage.
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"Using range to your advantage" and "backpeddling" isn't the same.
And by helicopter I mean those guys who do the left-to-right swing constantly and walk in circles while they do it. U can usually see that in sieges, when there's a big clusterfuck going on.
Yes... it is.... when you back peddle its normally so you can hit your target while their weapons are to short to hit you....
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How about you just attack him instead?
Which is, also, the proper way to counter ballerinas.
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Which is, also, the proper way to counter ballerinas.
Yep.
"Nice dance, here's a sword to your head."
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Or simply:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
/me
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But no, apparently it's OP because you're forced to just watch someone be a ballerina and then you're totally just gonna die because you're bored.
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But no, apparently it's OP because you're forced to just watch someone be a ballerina and then you're totally just gonna die because you're bored.
There is a bit of truth in that actually... A guy named Piotr with 16 ping blocks like Paul (maybe even is Paul)... duels with him are horrible at best, his tactic is:
block everything for 10 minutes till the enemy gets bored and then kill him when he starts being reckless and impatient
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There is a bit of truth in that actually... A guy named Piotr with 16 ping blocks like Paul (maybe even is Paul)... duels with him are horrible at best, his tactic is:
block everything for 10 minutes till the enemy gets bored and then kill him when he starts being reckless and impatient
Completely different thing, though. Yes, I agree that the current gamespeed (combined with the lordly armors, lolwut being able to take 6 hits) allows you to bore someone to death if you focus on blocking instead of fancy attack patterns.. but that has nothing to do with fancy ballerinas being impressed with their own feints for ten seconds. They won't be blocking if they're being ballerinas.
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There is a bit of truth in that actually... A guy named Piotr with 16 ping blocks like Paul (maybe even is Paul)... duels with him are horrible at best, his tactic is:
block everything for 10 minutes till the enemy gets bored and then kill him when he starts being reckless and impatient
That's Paul. And every other character that starts with a P and has ping below 20.
And yup, pretty much. He blocks for so long you die from boredom. But, Xant was parodizing Patricia's ridiculous complaint not that boredom kills you.
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Well yeah, what I said was a bit off. Ballerinas are another matter and are not usually paul-like-impenetrable, they still annoy me though. Probably one of the lamest tricks in the book, second to Deathwhispers frog jumping STR/armor crutching scythe bundle of sticksness.
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I wouldn't be so sure that Paul has never been penetrated, Vibe.
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I wouldn't be so sure that Paul has never been penetrated, Vibe.
:mrgreen: