cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Vibe on October 18, 2011, 09:12:07 am

Title: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Vibe on October 18, 2011, 09:12:07 am
This weapon has way too high stats for it's cost. This might not be such a bad problem in c-RPG, but could pose a problem in strategus due to its low cost and high effectiveness. It is also the longest weapon you can sideswing with.

Scythe
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Current weapon stats:
weight: 3
speed rating: 86
weapon length: 182
thrust damage: 14 pierce
swing damage: 28 cut
slots: 2
Can't sheath
Cost: 636

Proposed weapon stats:
weight: 2.3 (-0.7)
speed rating: 86
weapon length: 182
thrust damage: 14 pierce
swing damage: 23 cut (-5)
slots: 2
Can't sheath
Can't use on horseback
Cost: 1200
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: theero on October 18, 2011, 09:31:56 am
Just take 4 cut away, give it a price of 800 and give it the unbalanced-tag. Then I would be quite happy.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Gnjus on October 18, 2011, 09:41:24 am
I see that our Slovenian friend here is another one (after Leshma the Mute and some random folks before him) who has decided to follow the steps of Almighty Michael the Finished. Good luck, mate...you'll sure as hell need it. :wink:
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Vibe on October 18, 2011, 09:43:50 am
I see that our Slovenian friend here is another one (after Leshma the Mute and some random folks before him) who has decided to follow the steps of Almighty Michael the Finished. Good luck, mate...you'll sure as hell need it. :wink:

This is a thread that actually makes sense, rather than Leshma's biased shit. The longest swinging weapon in the game should not have 28 cut and a price of 600.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Kafein on October 18, 2011, 09:55:19 am
This is a thread that actually makes sense, rather than Leshma's biased shit. The longest swinging weapon in the game should not have 28 cut and a price of 600.

This.

I fully agree with the OP. Just like the mace for 2 handers, the scythe could become the 1° choice of polearms in Strat, and that would be retarded.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Moncho on October 18, 2011, 10:22:19 am
hmmm unbalanced? It is long, yes, but its  a stick with a piece of metal (not too big) in the end.
I agree with the other changes, but making it unbalanced just does NOT make sense
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Bjord on October 18, 2011, 10:33:06 am
Agreed, the scythe is fucking ridiculous.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Xant on October 18, 2011, 10:45:11 am
Yep, way too good for its price. +1
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Gnjus on October 18, 2011, 11:29:00 am
Can't wait to see how Fasader will "balance" it out.  :wink:
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: ThePoopy on October 18, 2011, 12:53:38 pm
he will remove stab
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Ujin on October 18, 2011, 01:08:23 pm
If you have enough wpf and ps, this weapon is hella good. On par (or even better) with the long voulge pre -patch.  Take this thread seriously. Less spammy cheap long weapons in Strat !
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Dezilagel on October 18, 2011, 01:22:09 pm
Was this weapon actually buffed last patch? :O

Anyways, I've been using this weapon repetedly for a long time and I agree that it's now really OP.

Before patch, it was really good, now it's just plain stupid imho (especially compared to the Military Scythe which was nerfed into uselessness).
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Vibe on October 18, 2011, 01:26:19 pm
Anyways, I've been using this weapon repetedly for a long time and I agree that it's now really OP.

I have been using it recently on my pole char aswell (36/3 build lol) and I must say it does wonders. Due to amazing length you don't actually need much athletics and you hit like a train.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Hrafn on October 18, 2011, 03:43:48 pm
Agree, it will be overused in strategus. Need a very strong nerf.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Gnjus on October 18, 2011, 03:47:57 pm
Need a very strong nerf.

Good, I'll call nerFasa for you but after he's done with it don't come here and cry how over-ner-fasa'd it got and ask for a re-buff.  :wink:
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Hrafn on October 18, 2011, 04:09:01 pm
Honestly better to overnerf it then live it this way. Or this weapon will be the only viable choice for ''peasant wars''  :)
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Bjord on October 18, 2011, 04:10:07 pm
It's even more ridonculous with full STR build.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Deathwhisper on October 18, 2011, 07:17:27 pm
It only does good damage with very high PS and a good speed bonus, against someone who doesn't know to block or still gets fooled by the jump swing trick. If I deal so much with it, it's because of my PS and the speed bonus I get when jumpswinging (you're moving towards me, weapon sweetspot = very high speed bonus). I don't see the point of making it unusable on horseback either, it's very slow and 14p, so you're not going to kill anyone using it on horseback.

I'd rather increase the price to something like 1k5-2k and keep it the way it is. It's the only really long polearm in the game with side swings ( since long voulge has been nerfed into utter uselessness for no apparent reason), nerfing it's stats would make another playstyle useless. Unless you add a new slow and expensive polearm with a long length and side swings, that would be a little bit like the polearmer's flamberge (longer but with less damage).

The main issue is probably with strategus, so that's why a cost increase should be enough.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Bulzur on October 18, 2011, 08:16:53 pm
Cost increase won't be enough.
I'm totally in favor of a -4 cut, and a price increase to 850 gold.

Don't know about the unbalanced though, seems a bit tough for the poor scythe. Maybe a "only" -1 speed would be enough for that.
Can't use on horseback.... why not. This isn't much of an issue though.^^
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 18, 2011, 08:44:06 pm
What I would changed about your proposed version is price 800-850 and taking away the unbalanced thing.

A scythe isn't that heavy at the tip that it needs to be unbalanced, rest you propose is fine
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: HarunYahya on October 20, 2011, 06:45:46 am
Agreed, the scythe is fucking ridiculous.
Lmao someone is mad.
Maybe getting ass kicked by Maliniak the Grey who used Scythe hurt your feelings too much ?  :twisted:

Now lets see some facts.
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

I made bold some important stats on those 3 classes 650-750 gold items.
Don't tell me 182 reach is too much its a polearm everyone knows it loses hell of a reach cuz of its animation.As you can see Scythe has lower damage and lower speed compared to 1h and 2h low tier weapons.This is not clearly op.Nerfing 8 cut damage etc...made me lol.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Vibe on October 20, 2011, 07:30:38 am
Lmao someone is mad.
Maybe getting ass kicked by Maliniak the Grey who used Scythe hurt your feelings too much ?  :twisted:

Now lets see some facts.
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

I made bold some important stats on those 3 classes 650-750 gold items.
Don't tell me 182 reach is too much its a polearm everyone knows it loses hell of a reach cuz of its animation.As you can see Scythe has lower damage and lower speed compared to 1h and 2h low tier weapons.This is not clearly op.Nerfing 8 cut damage etc...made me lol.

Are you seriously saying that a difference of 100 weapon length doesn't matter?  :lol:
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Xant on October 20, 2011, 08:17:49 am
Apparently..
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Snoozer on October 20, 2011, 08:46:04 am
hes referring to the animation...

due to the fact that pole arms are held by a player in the center of the staff it actually looses a lot of its length

while 2h are held at the very end on the handle loosing none of their length

so actually a lot of 2h weapons are in fact longer then their pole counter parts
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Vibe on October 20, 2011, 08:57:13 am
hes referring to the animation...

due to the fact that pole arms are held by a player in the center of the staff it actually looses a lot of its length

while 2h are held at the very end on the handle loosing none of their length

so actually a lot of 2h weapons are in fact longer then their pole counter parts

I know what he's referring to. You try outreaching Scythe with any swinging weapon and then come back.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Bjord on October 20, 2011, 09:56:50 am
Lmao someone is mad.
Maybe getting ass kicked by Maliniak the Grey who used Scythe hurt your feelings too much ?  :twisted:

Now lets see some facts.
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

I made bold some important stats on those 3 classes 650-750 gold items.
Don't tell me 182 reach is too much its a polearm everyone knows it loses hell of a reach cuz of its animation.As you can see Scythe has lower damage and lower speed compared to 1h and 2h low tier weapons.This is not clearly op.Nerfing 8 cut damage etc...made me lol.

Probably dumbest person on these forums, and doesn't even know it.

Please do everyone a favour and stop trying to argument with your pseudo-factual opinions. :)
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Snoozer on October 20, 2011, 11:07:04 am
I know what he's referring to. You try outreaching Scythe with any swinging weapon and then come back.
^well i use a glaive and there have been times where 2h out reached me

but i see your point seeing how the scythe is longer

i also understand that this can by used in strat but i do not think there is a way to nerf this weapon with out making it useless no one hardly uses this thing anyways i can only think of one and he was a troll alt of some bodys that was quite good
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Vibe on October 20, 2011, 11:10:21 am
^well i use a glaive and there have been times where 2h out reached me

but i see your point seeing how the scythe is longer

i also understand that this can by used in strat but i do not think there is a way to nerf this weapon with out making it useless no one hardly uses this thing anyways i can only think of one and he was a troll alt of some bodys that was quite good

People used/use/will use it in early strat, believe me. I remember one of the first battles in Strat 2.0, the defenders had Scythes... pair that with low armor and STR build and you will do a LOT of damage versus medium armor, while still being able to move quite fast. In the end I even dropped my 1h to pick up a scythe and joined the outrange fest.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Casimir on October 20, 2011, 11:49:15 am
axes should cut sythes in two, this would not balance gameplay i feel, please implement.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Malaclypse on October 20, 2011, 11:56:14 am
I don't feel like changing any of the stats is warranted in cRPG in general, but can understand nerfing it a bit in Strategus only. Except for the weight loss.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: HarunYahya on October 20, 2011, 01:15:54 pm
Probably dumbest person on these forums, and doesn't even know it.

Please do everyone a favour and stop trying to argument with your pseudo-factual opinions. :)
Lol i love the irony here Bjord calling someone dumb.
Truth hurts , don't make idiotic suggestions cuz of your butthurt.
Seriously -8 damage + unbalanced ? lol...
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Xant on October 20, 2011, 01:25:55 pm
The poll should be about whether or not scythe needs a nerf, not "do you agree with the proposed stats".. I think the proposed stats are too big of a nerf, but I think it's too cheap for what it does.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Vibe on October 20, 2011, 01:26:39 pm
The poll should be about whether or not scythe needs a nerf, not "do you agree with the proposed stats".. I think the proposed stats are too big of a nerf, but I think it's too cheap for what it does.

I agree. I believe I might have overnerfed it a bit too much. Still, Scythe most definitely needs a nerf.
Well, this thread is for discussion, I wouldn't mind any of you posting how they would nerf Scythe or why they wouldn't nerf it.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Bjord on October 20, 2011, 01:48:59 pm
Lol i love the irony here Bjord calling someone dumb.
Truth hurts , don't make idiotic suggestions cuz of your butthurt.
Seriously -8 damage + unbalanced ? lol...

My god, do you just realize the irony of the irony of the post that you claim is ironic? IRONIC.

And last time I checked, you're a nobody, so... I'm calling you dumb, it's is justified.  8-)

Besides, I never saw you make a sensible argument. At least I try once in a while(witnesses appreciated). I can agree that Vibe's suggestions for nerfing were a bit zealous, but that does not disregard the whole idea of nerfing it at all. It is the longest polearm with all directions, and it is ridiculously powerful for its cost. It does way too much damage for an alleged peasant weapon.

Now please give me some good reasons, Koyama, why it should not be nerfed? If you think you're so clever, let's see you walk the walk. You sure like to talk, that's for sure. Especially for someone whose IQ is not very evident. But I'm sure I've got you all wrong, you're probably the smartest guy on these forums. It's just that you don't want to show off, right? Something like that, I'm sure.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Vibe on October 20, 2011, 01:53:41 pm
Changed the nerf a bit, new nerf:

Proposed weapon stats:
weight: 2.3 (-0.7)
speed rating: 86
weapon length: 182
thrust damage: 14 pierce
swing damage: 23 cut (-5)
slots: 2
Can't sheath
Can't use on horseback
Cost: 1200

Removed unbalanced, buffed by 3 cut, weight +0.3, price increased.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Zisa on October 20, 2011, 08:09:03 pm
failing to see how this is worse then a bunch of pikers.
Also, it is not particularily a threat in battle, hate to see something fucked due to strategus.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Lizard_man on October 20, 2011, 09:23:44 pm
Just been up against this weapon in strat, pretty much 1 hitting me and my shield...
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Vibe on October 20, 2011, 09:41:30 pm
Yep, like I said.. many scythe users in Druzhina strat battle.. not that I blame them for using this weapon. Those who were at the battle now know.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Deathwhisper on October 20, 2011, 10:08:54 pm
I agree. I believe I might have overnerfed it a bit too much. Still, Scythe most definitely needs a nerf.
Well, this thread is for discussion, I wouldn't mind any of you posting how they would nerf Scythe or why they wouldn't nerf it.

A nerf to it's stats isn't a good solution imo. It only deals a lot of damage with a STR build and on low armor targets. 28 is already very low. A cost increase to something like 1k5 would already be enough to limit it on the battlefield. It's still got counters amongst low cost weapons like the staff (103 speed) and you're forced to use overheads only if teammates are near you (side swings will most likely TK and thrust is useless except to stop horses). Nerfing it into oblivion (yes, 1k2 cost and 23 cut would make it useless for any non peasant) would reduce the low cost weapon variety even further and you'd probably see everyone using staves (only 300 gold) until it's nerfed to 14b and 98 speed.
You won't fix low level strategus by nerfing the most used weapons, but by adding more low tier weapons and increasing variety. Scythe is already far behind the flamberge or the english bill on siege or battle in terms of effectiveness anyway, so it's only a strategus issue.





Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Oberyn on October 20, 2011, 10:25:21 pm
introduce new weapon called peasant scythe with crappy stats and gold cost of the scythe now, increase cost of scythe.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Deathwhisper on October 20, 2011, 10:38:34 pm
introduce new weapon called peasant scythe with crappy stats and gold cost of the scythe now, increase cost of scythe.

That's actually a good and constructive suggestion, it fixes the weapon in strat while keeping it viable in regular battles or siege where it's currently fine.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: PhantomZero on October 20, 2011, 10:51:50 pm
I bet if people used Pitchforks often enough in strategus someone would claim they are OP.
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Snoozer on October 20, 2011, 10:56:03 pm
That's actually a good and constructive suggestion, it fixes the weapon in strat while keeping it viable in regular battles or siege where it's currently fine.
hmm fine i suppose

but is it just me or is the a nerf cycle going on?to me th eonly reason this weapon is so good is because the weapons that were once better and superior then it got nerfed.

or am i crazy? the only buff i can think of in recent past was the buff to archers by making damage based off of arrows and throwings unnerf that  before thier damage against armor made them completely useless to the point u were a throw troll(pure throw build....lets be honest how many NON trolls throwers have you seen?) and you still sucked ass,now its far more lethal and effective

oh wait i misinterpreted vibe so back to topic
Changed the nerf a bit, new nerf:

Proposed weapon stats:
weight: 2.3 (-0.7)
speed rating: 86
weapon length: 182
thrust damage: 14 pierce
swing damage: 23 cut (-5)
slots: 2
Can't sheath
Can't use on horseback
Cost: 1200

Removed unbalanced, buffed by 3 cut, weight +0.3, price increased.
so your asking to only raise the first purchase of the weapon? or also raise upkeep as well?

p.s i think -5 dam is rather massive
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: TucKMuncK on October 21, 2011, 12:16:02 am
too radical. I would say make it unbalanced and take 1-3 dmg away
Title: Re: [STATS] Scythe
Post by: Jarlek on October 21, 2011, 12:29:59 am
The scythe is the best peasant weapon. I actually like that. It makes sense and gives everyone a weapon they can use in the beginning rounds of strat. Because of it's great length it is still usable by non-polearms.

As other people mentions, there are also many other good non-polearms that the scythe can be compared too. The scythe only wins over them in length but loses heavily in speed. It's in the speed range of the mauls, maces and slower axes.

But one thing that nobody has pointed out and which for me balances it out a great deal, is the fact that it is unsheathable. It might be the best peasant weapon (peasants ARE armed with scythes, and torches. Need to buff the torch!) and can be decently be used by non-peasants. But, since you will drop it the moment you pickup another weapon/a weapon of your type, it becomes useless unless you put that weapon on your back. This makes sense to me and balances it (in strat) a great ammount to me.

I am not saying it isn't the king of the peasant war, only that it still will be much less effective against higher equipment than it's other friends. 28 cut is bad against armour, the speed is too low and the length is always an issue in group fights and ganks, something peasants heavily depend on to fight real troops. The Two Handed Axe, Battle Axe, Falchion, Spiked Club and Voulge; it's price brethren are in my eyes all slightly more usefull against hier tier equipment than the scythe. The scythe wins at low gear, but loses much more efficiency than the others the better the oponents equipment gets.