cRPG

Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: chadz on October 14, 2011, 11:52:24 am

Title: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: chadz on October 14, 2011, 11:52:24 am
So, we are currently thinking about changing the smithing skill, especially how one gets it. What I like about the smithing skill: It gives clans the ability to produce their preferred items cheaper, as well as their heirlooms.

Anyway, I'm not going into detail what our ideas are or how it works currently, but instead:

What is, in your opinion, a gameplay enhancing way to distribute smithing skills?
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Rubicon on October 14, 2011, 12:16:48 pm
IMO, everything that can removed random event ( "hard work" text" ) by human choices would be a great improvement for production and trading.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Slamz on October 14, 2011, 12:20:07 pm
When calculating repairs, there will also be a calculation for "All Thine Hard Work".

If it succeeds, you get +1 smithing points for those items.  Alts can also earn these points and they go to your main for use in Strategus.

In Strategus, you can spend these points by crafting.  1 point yields 10 items at 50% of the normal price.


So if I get "All Thine Hard Work" 10 times while wielding a Nordic Champion Sword, then I can spend 10 hours crafting 100 Nordic Champion Swords at half cost.  If my archer alt got that message 2 times while using Bodkin Arrows, then I can spend 2 hours crafting 20 quivers of bodkin arrows at half cost.


You can twiddle the "All Thine Hard Work" chances to your liking.  I'm not sure what it should be.  Could be based on your multiplier, too, similar to gold:
x1 - x2 = no chance
x3 = 1% chance per round
x4-x5 = 2% chance per round

If that's not enough then up it.  It could even be semi-random:
x1  = nothing
x2 = 50% chance of +0.05 smithing points
x3 = +0.05 smithing points and a 50% chance of another +0.05 smithing points
x4-x5 = +0.1 smithing points and a 50% chance of another +0.05 smithing points.

When you have a whole point, it gets credited to you and you get the "All thine hard work" message.

(I wouldn't make it completely non-random or else people will break out the pencil and paper, predict their next point and put on all their platemail.  But semi-random could help prevent prevent people from going 162 rounds with no smithing points just because they never ever get a good dice roll.)
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Slamz on October 14, 2011, 12:29:09 pm
Another option, requiring far more work:

Forget about the entire current system.  Instead, there will be a "real" crafting system.

You want to make a Claymore.  This requires:
5 iron
2 coal
1 wood
1 leather
10 gold (forge rental fees)

Different fiefs produce different things.  In order to make that Claymore, you must obtain those items from across the map, either directly or through trade with other players (here's 200 iron, I'd like 500 wood, thank you, good day).

Every item has a recipe and god bless to devs who have to type all that in.  "All Thine Hard Work" might still exist to give you access to heirloom recipes.  Only people who have earned "all thine hard work" while wearing Lordly Scale Gauntlets can make those, but anyone can make regular Scale Gauntlets.


Ideally we'd also need a player auction house for this, similar to EVE or POTBS.  e.g., I go to Sargoth and put my wood up on the market for 1 gold each.  Someone buys it and I take my gold and buy the iron someone has up for 2 gold each.  etc.  Player driven economy!



Well you didn't say you only wanted easy ideas!
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: IR_Kuoin on October 14, 2011, 12:29:33 pm
Thine hard work only have something to say for Strat. right? Cuz I've gotten that text allot...
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on October 14, 2011, 12:49:31 pm
What about an actual smithing skill?
You know that you put points into with your crpg character. The higher the skill level the higher value good you can produce.

So that it is not totally useless when playing make it so that in crpg it reduces repair costs.
---

Maybe some sort of forge building in fiefs that has X slots per upgrade level and you can make anything that the fief owner selects as produce-able. It could even have a buyback system like how you can produce goods in a village and sell them back where the fief owner can set the price and thus the income of forge workers.

Then if a fief owner wants 100000 straw hats he can set straw hats as a produce-able item in his fief, set the buyback price to be higher than other goods that can be made in his fief and advertise that there are many many "straw-smith" jobs in his fief.

For heirlooms (and all goods at that) maybe make it so a fief owner can only select goods to produce in his fief that he owns in his crpg inventory. So to be able to produce an heirloomed armour piece he must actually own one. If that is too easy make it so you have to pay a fee of gold scaling with item quality to add any item to your forgeworks.

---

You know as soon as I heard of strategus I had always hoped there would be some non-combat skills to mix things up a bit (preferably with some sort of crpg function as well). Like smiths, doctors, leadership skills etc. There is an obvious space for them to fit in in a way very similarly to m&b single player. So why not?
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: IR_Kuoin on October 14, 2011, 12:52:03 pm


Then if a fief owner wants 100000 straw hats he can set straw hats as a produce-able item in his fief, set the buyback price to be higher than other goods that can be made in his fief and advertise that there are many many "straw-smith" jobs in his fief.


Who the hell wants 100000 straw hats? :D

Trolololool
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Bjord on October 14, 2011, 12:56:29 pm
Slamz made some really sensible suggestions. Both of those are actually very good, I hope you listen to him.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: IR_Kuoin on October 14, 2011, 01:05:22 pm
Slamz made some really sensible suggestions. Both of those are actually very good, I hope you listen to him.

Wow Bjord is unmuted :D
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: SPQR on October 14, 2011, 02:26:59 pm
Unlink smithing from crpg entirely.

Smithing is a strategus-only skill so tying it to crpg is really unnecessary.

Instead, start everyone at a base chance to produce every item, like 5%. Then, every time they successfully create an item, their skill in producing that item has a chance of going up. So, in the beginning for example your skill at making Leather Gloves will be poor, but the more Leather Gloves you produce, the more efficient you will become at it, getting a production discount and being able to make more each batch. So people can choose to specialize and have a few items they can produce cheaply and in bulk, or have a wider selection of items they're not as good at producing.

Perhaps allow people to choose a "specialization" like shields, or bows, that they get bonus smithing skill in. So one clan member can be the go-to for making bows, while another may specialize in armor, ect.

--

The other option, which is far more comprehensive, is to basically implement Charisma-like skills from native into strategus.

Skills like Leadership, Smithing, and Pathfinding make no sense in cRPG, so its obvious why they don't exist there. But strategus is essentially the singleplayer map made multiplayer so I think it would be very possible to find a way to make those skills fit there.

The greatest thing about cRPG is the amount of customization you find. You build your character EXACTLY how you want them. You pick how they look, how they fight, what they wear, how hard they hit. On the strategus map though, everyone is exactly the same. Everyone moves the same speed, pays the same upkeep, looks the same, ect.

One way to make strategus more engaging is to let people level up their strategus character just like their cRPG character.

Create a new strategus specific value you gain. Call it Valor (or something).

Your character gains valor by doing stuff in strategus. Crafting items gains you valor, participating in strategus battles gets you valor, having your personal forces involved in a battle should generate a bunch of valor, ect.

When you get enough valor, you are allowed to "level up" one of your charisma skills. Here are some potential examples:
-Smithing: Increases your chances and discount for crafting items
-Trade: Increases your trade good gathering rate, additional distance bonuses
-Leadership: Reduces upkeep cost for troops
-Pathfinding: Increases map movement speed
-Survival: Increase view distance, reduces terrain speed penalties, makes character party harder to spot on map
-Loot: Increases ability to view items of nearby characters on map, increases looting rate for battles and raids

Ect ect.

This way each person can customize their strategus character. Someone who wants to lead around armies may want to level Leadership and Pathfinding exclusively. Someone more interested in crafting may max out smithing and make world-class gear. Someone else may want to lead caravans and go for Trade and Pathfinding.

A bandit character could take Loot, and Survival and ambush passing caravans.

Anyway, you get the idea. Basically the goal is to get people as excited about their character in strategus as they are about their crpg abilities. Being able to level up and customize their strategus character I think will get many people to finally invest in strat as a full-fledged partner to cRPG instead of a side-distraction.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Digglez on October 14, 2011, 02:30:32 pm
I want a crafting system identical to Pirates of the Burning Sea.  Its free to play, so go do your research!

Each village has static resources that are used to make raw mats. (hemp, iron ore, oak logging camp)
Raw mats are turned into manufactured goods (hemp rope, iron ingots, oak planks)
Manufactured goods are combined to make final products (catapult)

There are also a decent number of economic structures that can be placed at most any location: pastures for livestock, small plantations, etc)

Players are limited to 10 economic structures, so you must balance what you want to accomplish. 
Do you want to just harvest raw mats to give to clanmates to process?
Do you want to buy raw mats from other players to craft manufactured goods & final products?
Do you want to strike a balance?

Nearly all final products require more goods than are available at any one town...so trading with other players are clanmates working together is essential


For instance if it were in cRPG

Fenada village is on Northern coast
Resources:  Northern Cod, Pine Forest, Fertile soil, Wild Game

To get resources from Fenada you would need to build a Fishing Lodge, Lumber Camp to harvest pine wood, small farm to grow wheat, hunting lodge to hunt game (leather, meat, etc)

Player Bob chooses to construct a small farm to raise chickens and a logging camp to harvest wood.  He then creates a slaughter house to get feathers from his chickens and a lumber mill to process his wood.  He also creates a fletcher to use the wood & feathers to make arrows.  But Bob is missing flint, so he has to buy that from Larry.  He could also buy iron ingots from Steve to make bodkin arrows.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Jacko on October 14, 2011, 02:36:48 pm
Will there be Katanas?
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Keshian on October 14, 2011, 02:44:54 pm
I like leet's first idea.  The more you craft the better you get, up to a maximum of 75% efficiency. 


If you have to have a cRPG way of deciding it thengive it out every time you win 7 rounds in a row on battle or siege.  Or have it based on how many rounds you use the same equipment slowly but surely increases your percentage chance of improving your smithing skill (i.e. .05% for everyone at round 1, .1% for 2 consecutive rounds using same equipment, etc.)

Also, so the list of possible crafted items doesnt get too large, only have strategus show the items you can smith with the top 5 percentages at any given time.

EDIT:  There should be a half price discount allowing you to craft non-loomed items as right now same price as MWed so why not craft those.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Greziz on October 14, 2011, 03:30:33 pm
I can't even vaguely figure out how to earn the current hard work stuff and I can craft god knows how many items cause I can't bring myself to use just the same shit forever and ever every round I have several outfits I like to wear and I hop around to them based on the game for instance if it is raining which 90 percent of the god damn time it is I don't bring a crossbow as it become useless in the rain 30 percent dmg reduction!!!!! and it become inaccurate and the bolts fly slow and it is more likely to make me rage WHY GOD DO YOU HAVE RAIN loss of athletics loss of ranged damage and loss of riding skill I guess you hate every class except for strength based 2handers and polearms? any who ignoring that I would love to see the way to earn smithing just be something some one can reasonably set themselves to doing and improving upon in a way that is meaningful and feels productive random ass luck on whatever the hell your using on round so and so while you were drunk and getting hard work payeth off when you have dropped you crossbow took off your helmet for coolness and are currently weilding something you picked off the floor to fend off horses sucks. This stat should be something you can make PROGRESS AT and KNOW that your making progress.


{Skip the rant read this.}

Make it like every level you get a seperate skill point esque thing that lets you put points into what you want to craft for instance when you retire you get a heirloom and 10 craft points to invest how you wish.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Konrax on October 14, 2011, 06:44:33 pm
Dear chadz,

The message should be a cumulative non random event based on the gear you are currently wearing, changing said gear at all during the xp building process results in a penalty (not a full wipe but lose a bit of xp each time you change an item) once the bar is full you get a "Hard WorK" message.

The bonus applies to what ever you are wearing at the time you get it.

Lastly I like the idea in the above post, but however I think it should be based on what you actually start to craft, you become more proficient over time crafting it up to a limit.

Limit = 50% (Craft Bonus) + 50% (Hard Work Bonus)

Put a little XP bar right in the equipment page next to where your gear selection is.

Base the XP on number of victories (150 map rounds won) and each time you change your gear you lose 2 points. That way if you change an item you should commit to it at least for 3 rounds to gain a bonus. (Since siege is longer you may want to make it worth more points on average.)

BONUS - Maybe raise the cap and award a small bonus for losses and a greater bonus for victories just so you gain something towards it every round.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Beans on October 14, 2011, 08:19:55 pm
If the goal of smithing is to allow clans to produce their preferred gear for a little cheaper then I think there are a few ways to do this that involve players/clans making hard choices rather than pure chance over time. Get rid of the All Thyine Hard Work completely.

Every player has a flat smithing value. This does not increase or decrease. Lets say it is 1000. These values pool together when in the same town(or fief/castle however you want to balance it)when multiple people in the same faction are in the same town. So if we have 5 people in one faction in the same town their smithing is 5000. They choose what items they want to smith based on a comparison of their total smithing points to the cost of the items they are trying to smith. How you determine what discounts they get, or how much smithing you need compared to an items cost is up to the balance team and however they want to do it.

To balance it from a perspective of large clans vs smaller ones you could just have a point where addition people in the smithing group contribute much less. In our example  5 players may have 5000 smithing in their group but adding a 6th player only brings the total to 5500, and a 7th brings the total to 5650.



Another similar but different idea would be to allow faction leaders to pick faction items that then all their players could craft for discounts. Each player in a faction adds points to a faction item pool and then you use those points to 'buy' which items you want for your faction discount. If they want to change items you can pay a fee to free up those points and then select a different item. Like the previous example you can set a point of serious diminishing returns so larger factions don't have a big advantage.


I don't have a specific process example but I also like the idea of a system where factions have the advantage of being able to produce large amounts of equipment and/or discounted basic equipment but small single smiths are at an advantage of being able to craft the heirloomed stuff. I'm not sure how to exactly work that idea in though.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Matey on October 14, 2011, 10:29:30 pm
Unlink smithing from crpg entirely.

Smithing is a strategus-only skill so tying it to crpg is really unnecessary.

Instead, start everyone at a base chance to produce every item, like 5%. Then, every time they successfully create an item, their skill in producing that item has a chance of going up. So, in the beginning for example your skill at making Leather Gloves will be poor, but the more Leather Gloves you produce, the more efficient you will become at it, getting a production discount and being able to make more each batch. So people can choose to specialize and have a few items they can produce cheaply and in bulk, or have a wider selection of items they're not as good at producing.

Perhaps allow people to choose a "specialization" like shields, or bows, that they get bonus smithing skill in. So one clan member can be the go-to for making bows, while another may specialize in armor, ect.


This. If a clan chooses to specialize in certain gear this would make it a lot easier, it would add some interesting stuff to the game as you could predict what your enemy might use and try to counter it, but also lets clans have more consistent themes at cheaper costs. of course clans can still buy completely different stuff if they think their enemies are bringing gear to counter their usual stuff.

as for those who have ideas of "you need 5 pieces of string 3 chewed gum 6 eye of newt and 2 miracles to craft 1 leather glove... NO! dont make us gather resources to craft shit... that always the worst part of mmos' and considering how slow things move in strat... it would be unbearably brutal to have to spend 40 hours traveling around collecting shit in order to make 1 shitty item.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Flawless on October 14, 2011, 10:37:48 pm
I really like leet's idea. It should be added.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Jarlek on October 14, 2011, 11:08:32 pm
This. If a clan chooses to specialize in certain gear this would make it a lot easier, it would add some interesting stuff to the game as you could predict what your enemy might use and try to counter it, but also lets clans have more consistent themes at cheaper costs. of course clans can still buy completely different stuff if they think their enemies are bringing gear to counter their usual stuff.

as for those who have ideas of "you need 5 pieces of string 3 chewed gum 6 eye of newt and 2 miracles to craft 1 leather glove... NO! dont make us gather resources to craft shit... that always the worst part of mmos' and considering how slow things move in strat... it would be unbearably brutal to have to spend 40 hours traveling around collecting shit in order to make 1 shitty item.
I disagree. I would like a "bring x amount of that resource" to make something. Yeah, having too many of them (as you pointed out) would just be really annoying, but some more simplified version would be nice. Basically, throwing stones, sticks etc, would just be free to craft (basicaly "gather"), low tier equipment like simple sword, bow, scythe would require 1 resource, next group would require 2 different, next would require 3 different and the top tier would require 4.

Nothing more than that and keep it as few different types of resources overall. Maybe something like "Steel, Planks, Tanned Leather, Cloth, Tools". Maybe make them be refined from the trade goods or make "gathering" materials? Like, you can craft trade goods for gold (more money from trading, but a price to make them originally) and you can mine/cut/hunt/gather etc stuff like Iron Ore (for Steel), Timber (for planks), Hides (for leather) and wool (for cloth) and then either go to the town/castle and refine it yourself or sell it directly for profit (less than what you would have gained from trade goods w/ no traveling).

When selling raw materials or refined materials, they shouldn't go away. Trade goods should go, but the others should go in a "village pool" that can either be accessed by the fief owner (for 100% or the gold is taken away from the fief itself) or bought (for 120% of sell price) by anyone.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Matey on October 15, 2011, 01:22:15 am
the problem with resource gathering is it already takes hours to go anywhere or do anything. if i can buy an item for gold, or spend 4 hours going to a tree on the map then 5 hours to get lumber, then 3 hours to go to a mountain, then 2 hours to gather iron, then 4 hours to go a river, then 6 hours to get fish guts, then 3 hours to get back to a village, then 1 hour to craft 1 item using all the resources i gathered... ill pay the gold.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 15, 2011, 01:29:09 am
Maybe this thread is the right one to post in:

Are there any bugs with the crafting or is it necessary that you got the message a certain amount of times?

I know I received it with my mainchar more than once, but I can't craft anything

And I know another Guard who always wrote down what he wore when he got the message, but he can craft stuff he got the message often with with the same percentage as with stuff with which he had the message very rarely :/
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Slamz on October 15, 2011, 01:32:20 am
the problem with resource gathering is it already takes hours to go anywhere or do anything. if i can buy an item for gold, or spend 4 hours going to a tree on the map then 5 hours to get lumber, then 3 hours to go to a mountain, then 2 hours to gather iron, then 4 hours to go a river, then 6 hours to get fish guts, then 3 hours to get back to a village, then 1 hour to craft 1 item using all the resources i gathered... ill pay the gold.
It's massively multiplayer and you're talking about it like it's single player.

If you're running around collecting all the crafting materials yourself then a) you're doing it wrong and b) you're missing the point.

YOU don't collect everything.  YOU collect wood.  You take the wood to a market and sell most of it for money.  You use that money to buy iron from the guy who did the same thing as you.  You and iron guy both use your money to buy leather from the leather guy and coal from the coal guy, etc.

So what you really want is 50 wood, 100 iron and 80 coal but all you do is get 500 wood, sell 450 of it and buy the other things you need.


And ideally you would gather the wood by going to a town and creating a "lumber yard" which spends money on an hourly basis and gathers wood, which you can then come around and collect and take to market.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Matey on October 15, 2011, 01:35:08 am
still way more effort and coordination than anyone wants to deal with to craft items when you could just make money with trade caravans and then buy the items as you need them.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Tydeus on October 15, 2011, 01:55:25 am
Remove "time played" as a factor altogether and instead of having smith skill being player based, have it faction based.

Here's one way of implementing a system with such requirements:

Each player can "vote" to +1 a piece of equipment in their equipment page on the website.
10 being the max needed to "cap" your faction's smith skill for that item.
Faction leaders assign a specific rank to "smiths" in their Faction.
Each faction can only have 1/2 smiths per 10 players.

Larger factions still get an advantage, but i'm not sure I'd call it huge and if you wanted to reduce the advantage, you'd just increase the number of "votes" each player gets.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Jarlek on October 15, 2011, 02:20:03 am
the problem with resource gathering is it already takes hours to go anywhere or do anything. if i can buy an item for gold, or spend 4 hours going to a tree on the map then 5 hours to get lumber, then 3 hours to go to a mountain, then 2 hours to gather iron, then 4 hours to go a river, then 6 hours to get fish guts, then 3 hours to get back to a village, then 1 hour to craft 1 item using all the resources i gathered... ill pay the gold.
Valid point. As the other guy said, you are not supposed to do it yourself, although I say you SHOULD be able to do a lot yourself! This is why I mentioned the different tiers. You do all yourself and get low equipment, or you can get lots of people all getting resources, get them to a town where they hand it over to designated refiners who, when finished, gives it to designated craftmen.

One thing that would be pretty necessary for this would be for factions to have "guilds" or "headquarters" in fiefs. They pay X ammount of money and they have a small base there where everyone can store items/equipment/money (NOT troops) and where rank over X (or title Y like smith) can take resources and rank Z and above can take resources/refined stuff and rank Æ and above can take everything (including gold).

Otherwise this would be a COMPLETE nightmare to micromanage.

I would also like a way to "auto pickup" for other players. This is more for Caravans than crafting. Basically you can let another player get all your TRADE Goods without having to manually login. So a faction can set up a caravan, he goes from fief to fief and pickup while the different members make Trade Goods. Might be a bit OP and minimize what the different members has to do, but currently it's still very little for them to do. Having those "Headquarters", though, could make this not needed AND make the individual member actually have to do something (dump his stuff or travel and dump).

EDIT: FUCK! Forgot this is the SMITHING discussion. Sry for my very off topic post. Gonna make a new thread to discuss this:


ON TOPIC:
I think you should redo the smithing considerably. The whole "random thing for everyone beneath 31" is kinda mean and I also believe having them on so many different equipment is weird. Make them faction oriented or a skill or something. Just not random.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Slamz on October 15, 2011, 03:57:52 am
Remove "time played" as a factor altogether and instead of having smith skill being player based, have it faction based.

A similar idea might be to make it "forge based".

Go to a village.  Buy a forge (300 gold, flat fee).

Tell the forge what to start making.  You tell it to start making Heavy Round Shields.  Initially, it's 5% off the price.

Every hour:
5 shields are produced
price reduction is improved by 1%

After 10 hours you'll be a 15% price reduction (and you'll have 50 shields).

If you order this forge to produce anything else, that item will start improving and your shield bonus will start to decay at the same rate.  So you switch from shields to swords.  After 5 hours your sword bonus is up to 10% price reduction but your shield bonus is down to 10%.

Basically it's "forge specialization".  The more you have a forge make one item, the better at it it becomes.  If you switch items, you start over.


You can have 1 forge per village.  So if you want to fully equip your army all by yourself, you'll need at least 5 forges, meaning 1 forge in each of 5 villages.  (Ideally, you do not need to stay to run the forge.  You tell it you want 10 runs of Nordic Short Sword and then you can leave.  Come back 10 hours later and it will be done, and there's your 50 swords.)

More likely, though, you'd be with your clan.  20 people based in 1 village with 1 forge each can outfit their armies fairly rapidly.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Tydeus on October 15, 2011, 04:18:13 am
A similar idea might be to make it "forge based".

Go to a village.  Buy a forge (300 gold, flat fee).

Tell the forge what to start making.  You tell it to start making Heavy Round Shields.  Initially, it's 5% off the price.

Every hour:
5 shields are produced
price reduction is improved by 1%

After 10 hours you'll be a 15% price reduction (and you'll have 50 shields).

If you order this forge to produce anything else, that item will start improving and your shield bonus will start to decay at the same rate.  So you switch from shields to swords.  After 5 hours your sword bonus is up to 10% price reduction but your shield bonus is down to 10%.

Basically it's "forge specialization".  The more you have a forge make one item, the better at it it becomes.  If you switch items, you start over.


You can have 1 forge per village.  So if you want to fully equip your army all by yourself, you'll need at least 5 forges, meaning 1 forge in each of 5 villages.  (Ideally, you do not need to stay to run the forge.  You tell it you want 10 runs of Nordic Short Sword and then you can leave.  Come back 10 hours later and it will be done, and there's your 50 swords.)

More likely, though, you'd be with your clan.  20 people based in 1 village with 1 forge each can outfit their armies fairly rapidly.
I think they're wanting to keep the heirloom part in tact as well, so if you have lordly gloves in crpg, you'd still be able to craft those at lordly quality.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Digglez on October 15, 2011, 09:13:22 am
As a cavalry player I noticed I had no bonus to craft horse, is this intended?  You mean my hours and days on horseback dont make me a better eye to help breed better horses?!
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Torben on October 15, 2011, 10:21:05 am
I like gaining skills for the items you love. If I ride my courser day in day out for a year now,  I goddam well wanna be a pro breeder. 

however I want to be able to get the skill at any level.  Never had it yet cause i wasnt under 32 fdor ages
 
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Jarlek on October 15, 2011, 02:13:02 pm
I like gaining skills for the items you love. If I ride my courser day in day out for a year now,  I goddam well wanna be a pro breeder. 

however I want to be able to get the skill at any level.  Never had it yet cause i wasnt under 32 fdor ages
I didn't think I had it once. I was wrong. I've had it once. When I was pure pole cav. Which is 2 or 3 generations ago....
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Slamz on October 15, 2011, 03:02:43 pm
Could be horses are working fine but tend to get 0'd out due to the nature of how people use them.

I dunno about you guys, but I can't be cavalry 100% of the time.  I made a cav alt and had a great time until level 26 with a pile of cash saved up and I was broke before I hit level 28.  Most people will switch to a cheaper horse or else just play infantry to build up cash.  The ratio of "time spent as infantry" to "time spent as cavalry" is, what, 3:1 or so?

That would do it.

You get "all thine hard work" once with your Large War Horse and that's 3 points.
You get it three times as infantry and you now have 0 Large War Horse points, because you lose a point each time you get that message while not on your horse.


Just a theory.

Theory B is that "horses don't get points".
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Jarlek on October 15, 2011, 03:41:36 pm
One thing that has been bothering me.

To get the message, did you have to actually HAVE a heirloomed item equipped? I gave away all of my looms to a clanmate and kept playing without them. I never got the message after that.

It would be totally OK if the message just was for crafting heirlooms, but if crafting would be the way to equip armies, this would really penalize those of us who play without the heirlooms.

If I'm right in my speculation, would it be possible to introduce a third chadztext? One that can come no matter what and gives you crafting in "normal" equipment and make the old chadztext only give you crafting points for heirlooms? Also, if you got the "normal crafting" message while having a loomed item, it would just add to the "normal" version of that item.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Beat on October 15, 2011, 03:48:28 pm
So, we are currently thinking about changing the smithing skill, especially how one gets it. What I like about the smithing skill: It gives clans the ability to produce their preferred items cheaper, as well as their heirlooms.

Anyway, I'm not going into detail what our ideas are or how it works currently, but instead:

What is, in your opinion, a gameplay enhancing way to distribute smithing skills?

Remember what chadz is asking us.  He's looking for a way to distribute smithing skills.  Although some of the ideas I've seen here are very interesting, I think they are getting away from the point of this thread and perhaps too complicated.  The more complicated it is, the harder it will be to program and balance.

Using single player Mount and Blade as a guide, I think it can be done in a very simple way.  Just give everyone exclusive smithing skill points each time they level up.  They cannot be converted to attributes or skills and you cannot get more of them by sacrificing other stats.  The ability to respec these points for a fee but independent of the rest of your character would be nice as well.

 I believe there are a little over 700 items currently in game and our characters have 9 fields(places to put gear, not "slots") in which to equip items so perhaps having somewhere between 30 and 90 smithing skill points at level 30 would be a good place to start.  You could then choose which items to put points into and the points would work in the same way they do now for the sake of simplicity.

That being said, I like some of the other ideas I've heard here like the ones that encourage factions to have a consistent look in their gear and perhaps be known for what weapons they bring to a battle and therefore add a bit more strategy when deciding how to counter them.  I love the idea of, for example, one faction being known for their uniform of surcoat over mail with mail coifs and mostly wiedling red tassel spears, arming swords and crossbows.  That is how historical armies outfitted themselves after all and the factions from single player Mount and Blade as well.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: ManOfWar on October 15, 2011, 04:27:37 pm
At the very least do not penalize people for being higher than level 30
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: PhantomZero on October 15, 2011, 05:28:15 pm
At the very least do not penalize people for being higher than level 30

What is the point of retiring then?
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Keshian on October 15, 2011, 05:29:11 pm
What is the point of retiring then?

Has there been a point for the last 5 months??
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on October 15, 2011, 07:03:21 pm
Why do so many people suggest that everyone should get "smithing points" or whatever equivalent idea they propose.

In medieval times smiths were valuable because of their rare skill. Not everyone knew how to make a sword, if you want to be a smith you should have to make sacrifices. Not everyone should be a smith and if you want to do this work then you should have a character with the required skills.

I do not think it is good to have everyone smithing weapons on the side. It devalues the skill if everyone can do it. Why bother having a smithing skill if it is easily accessible to all, surely it should be something to give some advantage if you work for it. If we have some system whereby everyone can craft just got get slightly lower costs or slightly higher stats why bother? Just make the shop cheaper and possible to buy heirlooms and you have the same effect.

Being a smith should be a valued profession, not something everyone dabbles in. Factions should be fighting hard to recruit the most skilled smiths, not telling all their members to remember to set up their personal mini forge properly before they log off or some shit.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Jarlek on October 15, 2011, 07:08:49 pm
Why do so many people suggest that everyone should get "smithing points" or whatever equivalent idea they propose.

In medieval times smiths were valuable because of their rare skill. Not everyone knew how to make a sword, if you want to be a smith you should have to make sacrifices. Not everyone should be a smith and if you want to do this work then you should have a character with the required skills.

I do not think it is good to have everyone smithing weapons on the side. It devalues the skill if everyone can do it. Why bother having a smithing skill if it is easily accessible to all, surely it should be something to give some advantage if you work for it. If we have some system whereby everyone can craft just got get slightly lower costs or slightly higher stats why bother? Just make the shop cheaper and possible to buy heirlooms and you have the same effect.

Being a smith should be a valued profession, not something everyone dabbles in. Factions should be fighting hard to recruit the most skilled smiths, not telling all their members to remember to set up their personal mini forge properly before they log off or some shit.
Good point. Although I still think it shouldn't be sacrificing your cRPG/strat battle ability, it should sacrifice something else.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Torben on October 15, 2011, 07:19:49 pm
(click to show/hide)

the unique thing about it would be the item itself that you can produce.  the system atm doesnt make you a smith,  just gives u the ability to make 1 kind of any item.  i think that is highly specialized enough.  you wont have more than 1 or two guys beeing able to make the higher tear items in any clan.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Dehitay on October 15, 2011, 07:23:58 pm
Actually, all of that gives me an idea. Why not dedicate one EU and one NA server specifically to crafting skills. On these servers, instead of earning experience, you get a minute chance at gaining the All Thine Hard Work message at the end of each round. Something along the lines of 1/1000. And each multiplier would multiply your chance of getting those skills at round end up to 1/200. However, gold and upkeep should work in the same fashion on regular servers.

This would be helpful as you can specifically take the equipment you want to improve in on this server. It also allows high level players a chance at gaining crafting skills. You just have to sacrifice experience in exchange. So anybody who's smart enough to leave crafting to others can go back to levelling
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Torben on October 15, 2011, 08:11:40 pm
this would fuck poor people and help out rich clans.  dont like : /
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Dehitay on October 15, 2011, 08:20:25 pm
this would fuck poor people and help out rich clans.  dont like : /
Are you referring to my idea specifically? Some other idea? Or smithing in general?
If it's my idea, I'm not sure what you mean. The gold flow would be just the same as playing on a regular server.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Torben on October 15, 2011, 08:24:13 pm
ah dam got it wrong though u were suggesting to not get gold. my bad
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Matey on October 15, 2011, 08:50:50 pm
What is the point of retiring then?

gee... getting looms and xp boost and trying new builds.
what is the point of not retiring? not having to grind lots to be useful in strat.

oh wait thats right, not retiring means no smithing which means less useful in strat... so basically you get almost nothing for not retiring.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on October 15, 2011, 10:09:15 pm
the unique thing about it would be the item itself that you can produce.  the system atm doesnt make you a smith,  just gives u the ability to make 1 kind of any item.  i think that is highly specialized enough.  you wont have more than 1 or two guys beeing able to make the higher tear items in any clan.

Yea except in the whole time I have played I never got that message so even if I wanted to be a smith it would be impossible for me.

There is a valid in game crpg reward for a smithing skill anyway as I suggested on page 1, lower repair costs.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Tydeus on October 15, 2011, 10:17:12 pm
Yea except in the whole time I have played I never got that message so even if I wanted to be a smith it would be impossible for me.

There is a valid in game crpg reward for a smithing skill anyway as I suggested on page 1, lower repair costs.
I'd say that's more because the chance of getting the skill is too random.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 16, 2011, 12:34:52 am
How about training time spent in strategus to gain the skill points? After all, a Strat based Skill should be used in Strat, and Gained in Strat. Keep all of the Strat Stuff in Strat.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 16, 2011, 12:42:59 am
Maybe you can change something about the "players above 30 don't get the message anymore" ?

For me it's all a bit confusing as I know I received the message on my main several times, but I can't craft anything. I don't know which items I wore, but still I think I should be able to craft anything. Why can't I?
 
And now that I'm lvl 32 I have no chance to get any crafting skills anymore, which sucks because I have no chance to support my clan now with some nice items :/
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: ManOfWar on October 16, 2011, 12:45:20 am
sorry I made an entire new thread but in the man time can you make it so level 30+ could get message?
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Mannhammer on October 16, 2011, 01:10:03 am
I really likes Leets second idea. Implement non-combat skills just like in the single player. I've always thought this would be cool, but I understand that it would be hard and take a whole retooling if the strat concept.

Still  +1 to Leet
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Slamz on October 16, 2011, 09:13:48 am
To get the message, did you have to actually HAVE a heirloomed item equipped? I gave away all of my looms to a clanmate and kept playing without them. I never got the message after that.
Nope, I've gotten it while wearing nothing but basic gear.

I've gotten the message a lot more times than I recall actually noticing.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: RandomDude on October 25, 2011, 02:18:08 am
How about training time spent in strategus to gain the skill points? After all, a Strat based Skill should be used in Strat, and Gained in Strat. Keep all of the Strat Stuff in Strat.

the only problem i have with this is how do u determine whether u can craft thick/masterwork items etc?

I supposed you could start by only being able to craft normal items and then as your skill increases with that item you can craft higher quality but then wouldnt we end up with most troops in Lordly gear with MW items in strat?

Im probably shooting myself in the foot but maybe it should be impossible to choose to craft Lordly/MW items etc and there should be a random chance that the item you make is of better quality than normal.

You could then have "Elite" armies with the better gear and just give normal stuff for the average armies.
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Dehitay on October 25, 2011, 02:19:41 am
the only problem i have with this is how do u determine whether u can craft thick/masterwork items etc?

I supposed you could start by only being able to craft normal items and then as your skill increases with that item you can craft higher quality but then wouldnt we end up with most troops in Lordly gear with MW items in strat?

Im probably shooting myself in the foot but maybe it should be impossible to choose to craft Lordly/MW items etc and there should be a random chance that the item you make is of better quality than normal.
Are you actually asking how? You just get the message while you have a loomed item equipped and you get smithing skills in it
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Jarlek on October 25, 2011, 02:46:01 am
Are you actually asking how? You just get the message while you have a loomed item equipped and you get smithing skills in it
Are you actually ignoring the quote in his comment? Since I can do that too and gonna ask who the fuck you are talking too?
Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Tristan on October 25, 2011, 03:39:45 am
Imo we want:

- Less random
- Player influence (tied to the above.)
- Individuality
- cRPG and strat connection
- Minimize grind
- Incentives to use strat
- Player interaction
- I missed something?!

So, with those things in mind one suggestion could be:

a) Each round you win with x5 gives you a smithing point. This smithing point can be assigned to any owned item.
1st level cost 1 point, 2nd level cost 2 points, 3 level cost 4 etc. etc. (what ever exponential formula you wanna use).
This solution does not engange in more strat use, but is pretty well combined with the rest of the crpg gameplay.

b) Assigning smithing points for every item a person creates only extend grind behaviour in strat. No real interaction.

c) Right now exp in strat is bad. Maybe you gain smithing skill for fighting more strat battles? Again we should avoid randomly assigned points.
Awarding it to top K/D would be counter intuitive compared to general arguments for support builds etc. on public server.

d) Smithing mini-game: Around the map, randomly redistributed are smith masters. When you defeat a smith master ( a bot on a duel server) in a duel you gain the master title. After you gain a title you keep it but can be challenged by other players. If you lose a duel to another player you lose that mastery title. You can only have on mastery title..
This method would award skill and not entice to grind. Would invite to exploring etc. etc.
Weapons might have three titles available like: 5 aprentice titles, 3 master and 1 Grandmaster (25% bonus, 50% bonus and 75% bonus).
In order to win against the npc you'd have to defeat him in his equipment.
In order to defeat players to gain the title, defender chooses eq, but MUST use mastery item.
If you own a mastery title and happen to have the same item heirloomed (of any level) you are able to produce heirloomed weapons in strat.

I like my d) best!!!



Title: Re: Smithing Skill - discussion
Post by: Bobthehero on October 25, 2011, 04:11:24 am
All thine work should work for level 31 and up as well.