cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: RiPLeY_II on October 07, 2011, 11:44:39 am
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You know, every "tier" of weapons have a higer rqr as you go up in the ladder. Mean:
Winged mace rqr 11
Iberian mace rqr 13
Military hammer rqr 13
Warhammer rqr 15
or
Simple nordic sword rqr 8
Nordic sword rqr 9
Nordic war sword rqr 10
Nordic champion sword rqr 13
But then in the case of steel pick (also of broad one handed battle axe, which i will make another poll), it goes:
Fighting pick rqr 8
Military sickle rqr 10
Military pick rqr 13
Steel pick --------------------------->RQR 12
In the case of the steel pick and current "unbalanced status" of piercing reduction damage (dealing more than double the amount of damage vs. armor values of 50/60), it also allows the making of "top dealing 1h damage" with a value of 4 ps only (believe me, they deal much more damage than a 21str 7ps with an iron war axe, military cleaver or any other cut damage 1h weapon), which is absolutely ridicolous.
Also the steel pick is a 2.3 weight weapon, which also would favor the fact of raising its requirement.
So vote for the change. My guess is 14 should be enough, as it will more or less equalize it with warhammer, which is the more similar weapon we can find (being the diferences warhammer=slower and knockdown +1 req, raw damage is more or less the same).
EDIT: EDITED POLL TO INCLUDE AN OPTION FOR 15+REQUIREMENT
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Nitpicking much?
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Nitpicking much?
Did you even take the time .... just to read the post?
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Did you even take the time .... just to read the post?
Oh dear, I thought it had a requirement of 13, not 12. Well in that case, your post makes sense. Steel pick should be slower anyway, or less damaging. Same damage as the best 1h swords with the addition of pierce, you gotta be shittin me.
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16 str imho
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yes 16,
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I edited the poll to include a 15+ option
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another physics fail. you realize its 6 shorter than the previous pick in the tier? Which is SIGNIFICANT for a 1h'er.
shorter weapon + same weight = less force required to wield
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another physics fail. you realize its 6 shorter than the previous pick in the tier? Which is SIGNIFICANT for a 1h'er.
shorter weapon + same weight = less force required to wield
How about balance? This is about having an extreme agi build with a steel pick.
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another physics fail. you realize its 6 shorter than the previous pick in the tier? Which is SIGNIFICANT for a 1h'er.
shorter weapon + same weight = less force required to wield
Same case as warhammer vs. iberian or military hammer, but still warhammer have more req., in fact significantly more.
It's all about balance. It has no sense at all that you have a much better overall and VERY SPECIALIZED weapon at such a low requirement.
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Results for now
yes 15 (50%)
no 5 (16.7%)
13 is enough 1 (3.3%)
15 or more 9 (30%)
This shows that 80% people think 14 rqr or more is needed for the steel pick
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I use the steel pick and I am fine with raising its requirements.
I tried a low agility + armor + steel pick as well as higher agility. It is still useful but more balanced when less AGI is available.
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I'd much rather fight a 12-24 steelpick user than a 21-18 steelpick user, personally ...
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This weapon DEFINITELY needs to be rebalanced.
I'm 3rd gen 1/h shield. I've used lots of different weapons. Once I got my hand on a loomed Steel Pick, my K:D ration exploded. It's fun as hell...but not fair. LOL.
Yes, the requirement should be raised.
Not only that, but the speed should be decreased, the damaged reduced, or both.
In my opinion, it should be a 97 speed weapon. That, along with the increased requirement (15 sounds ok, same as warhammer), would balance it perfectly. It would still be the most powerful 1h weapon, but it would no longer be the most powerful AND one of the fastest 1h weapons.
Req: 15
Length: 64
Speed: 97
Damage: 32 pierce
This is balanced for me. Some people like reality....in reality a war pick was simply the reverse side of a war hammer...then it should have the same stats as the war hammer. Picks were heavy, slow, often got caught on armor, and rarely caused wounds that were immediately fatal. However, they were great at piercing armor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseman%27s_pick
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According to results by now, 77.5% of the people think it needs a higher requirement (7.5%--> 13 42.5%--> 14 27.5%-->15 or more).
So i ask the balancing team, could you have a look at this?
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Chances are they've already taken a look at the steel pick, seeing as there's been much talk about it for a long time.
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How about balance? This is about having an extreme agi build with a steel pick.
no different than agi whores with short fast 2h swords. Lets raise longsword to 18 STR, thats about how stupid your argument sounds. People who yield steel pick sacrifice powerstrike for atheltics so they can actually hit with this short piece of junk....THATS the balance already done for you.
Steel pick cant even hit you if you are back pedaling its so short unless they do a right swing, which is a death sentence against any moderately skilled player.
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Digglez, longsword deals the damage its supposed to deal, in range with other 2h. Steel pick doesn't.Actually building an AGI build is supposed to be sacryficing the damage you deal.
In the situation we have now, you can make a build that it is only efficient with the steel pick. If we remove it from the game, and we tell those agi whores "come, use another weapon", they have a really shitty character.
That's not the case with 2h swords, they deal damage because thery're supposed to do so (and you can tell a 2h agi whore "come use another weapon" and still be efficient, not like 1h 12 str builds ....). Were talking bout a 1h weapon that makes BY ITSELF (with no help of an STR build, just 12 str required) more damage than any other 1h, allowing to make agi builds without sacrifice. Even the lenght is not a drawback, cause the pick allows you to reach 24 or 27 agi at lvl 30 (and thus bypass efficiently the "lenght drawback") easily and that's because of .............. YES! ITS REQUIREMENT!
Anyway i can't see why youre so mad at this, I'm not talking about changing the pick stats, just about raising it requirement ............................ it will still be as damaging as you want, but not for 12 str chars .....................
PD: saying someone argument is stupid, actually makes yours stupid.
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Digglez, longsword deals the damage its supposed to deal, in range with other 2h. Steel pick doesn't.Actually building an AGI build is supposed to be sacryficing the damage you deal.
It is with a steel pick as well. Or are you saying that 24 strength and 8 PS Steel Pick char deals the same damage as 12 str 4 PS Steel Pick char?
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You can do a 12/27 build with a steel pick and perform extremely well, dealing damage comparable to 24/15 or whatever. Pretty imbalanced IMO, good suggestion.
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It is with a steel pick as well. Or are you saying that 24 strength and 8 PS Steel Pick char deals the same damage as 12 str 4 PS Steel Pick char?
From my experience speed bonus is more important than 2 added PS, of course if you can utilize it properly.
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From my experience speed bonus is more important than 2 added PS, of course if you can utilize it properly.
I don't see how speed bonus would really be all that useful unless you're surprising someone and have the chance to sprint at them.. when you're fighting, you won't really be able to utilize speed bonus, especially with a pick.
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You can do a 12/27 build with a steel pick and perform extremely well, dealing damage comparable to 24/15 or whatever. Pretty imbalanced IMO, good suggestion.
Same though from me.
Steel pick having only 12str req is... a joke.
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I don't see how speed bonus would really be all that useful unless you're surprising someone and have the chance to sprint at them.. when you're fighting, you won't really be able to utilize speed bonus, especially with a pick.
Quick question Xant. Did you ever use a steel pick with 12str 4ps? if not, do it, then swith to whatever 1h sword or axe you like. Then tell the difference
It's unplayable with every weapon ... but a steel pick.
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Ripley, you forget that you'll be like paper if you have such low strength and IF. If you decide to wear armor, that defeats the whole point of building up your agi.
IMO, it's more effective to have at least 5-6 PS, even with a pick.
My 55 body armor (non-loomed) character with a (+3) steel pick has around a 3.2 K/D which isn't too shabby. He has 24 strength and 15 agi. Before that, I was doing around the same performance with 12 agi.
I really only want the increase in STR requirement for pick only because it makes sense since it's the highest tier pick. 15 STR requirement is fine imo.
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Were talking bout a 1h weapon that makes BY ITSELF (with no help of an STR build, just 12 str required) more damage than any other 1h, allowing to make agi builds without sacrifice. Even the lenght is not a drawback, cause the pick allows you to reach 24 or 27 agi at lvl 30 (and thus bypass efficiently the "lenght drawback") easily and that's because of .............. YES! ITS REQUIREMENT!
Anyway i can't see why youre so mad at this, I'm not talking about changing the pick stats, just about raising it requirement ............................ it will still be as damaging as you want, but not for 12 str chars .....................
PD: saying someone argument is stupid, actually makes yours stupid.
Laugh, you think steel pick is the most damaging 1H? Explain why you do not see EVERY SINGLE 1H using STEEL PICK and armies of 1h using it then? Your observations are grossly incorrect and can be backed up by server log/stats, which they've already done before. They account for less than 1% of all deaths on EU servers. Not like Bec's & Longswords that are probably 10-15% between them.
Clearly you've never done 1h for any extent of time. Steel pick is a poor general use weapon and is only useful when dealing with multiple heavily armored opponents.
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Clearly you've never done 1h for any extent of time. Steel pick is a poor general use weapon and is only useful when dealing with multiple heavily armored opponents.
You're right, not very long, just 10 generations in a row, pure shielder, from beggining to end, till today ... maybe not enough to know more than you about this......
anyway, you know, the poll is there ... and people seem to be seeying it more my way than yours ... we can discuss whatever we want, but this is just made for balancing group to take numbers into consideration, that's all.
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Quick question Xant. Did you ever use a steel pick with 12str 4ps? if not, do it, then swith to whatever 1h sword or axe you like. Then tell the difference
It's unplayable with every weapon ... but a steel pick.
Swords and axes aren't as short as steelpick... axes have bonus vs shield..
And no, I'm not stupid, I'd never make a 4 PS 1hander.
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Swords and axes aren't as short as steelpick... axes have bonus vs shield..
And no, I'm not stupid, I'd never make a 4 PS 1hander.
It's ok swords and axes are longer and axe have bonus vs shield ... pick is more damaging ... but then again PICK HAs LESSER REQUIREMENT.
It's not about the pick stats i repeat again, it's about its requirement!
Anda if you weren't so smart, maybe you could discover that a 4ps shielder is perfectly playable and highly effective .... with a steel pick ... but not with any other weapon, that's what i'm trying to end with.
Just skip the fun with a secondary character and go 12-24 or 12-27 and use the steel pick. Even not loomed, it deals damage like hell, oftenly 1-hitting medium-high armored guys.
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So make it 15 requirement and then you'll have 15-24 shielders that deal even more damage than those with 4 PS..? Brilliant plan. 4 PS steelpick can be effective yes.... you are trading damage and hitpoints for those athletics.
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What we have know is that the most damaging 1h in the game is the least demanding one. Yes i prefer a 15-24 picker than a 12-27 cause both 1hit me so at least the first is slower.
Anyway I won't argue any more. It's like talking to a wall. You even say that you never tried but still think that you know about it ...
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I've played against people with it and I've used a +3 steelpick with 24-15 build.. If you seriously get one hit by a 4 PS steel pick char, then the problem is somewhere else :D
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For me it seems like most of the 1handers use either a Scimitar or Steel Pick nowadays. Imho, just changing the requirement won't fix the pick. It needs to have damage and speed lowered.
Those who still use straight 1h swords have my respect. And the other are gay easymode shits (with no fashion sense).
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For me it seems like most of the 1handers use either a Scimitar or Steel Pick nowadays. Imho, just changing the requirement won't fix the pick. It needs to have damage and speed lowered.
Those who still use straight 1h swords have my respect. And the other are gay easymode shits (with no fashion sense).
Not only the pick stats modified, but the whole piercing damage reduction formula.
Lately I've been playing with a non-loomed military sickle and i deliver more damage than i do with my masterwork nordic champions sword (26piercing vs. 35 cut).
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15 STR, 5 PS vs 60 Armor
Military Sickle 26p
Average: 15
High: 24
Low: 7
MW NCS 35c
Average: 13
High: 24
Low: 1
Not by much, and anyone with less than 60 armor, which is still probably the majority of players you will be doing more damage to. Plus you get +30 more reach
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15 STR, 5 PS vs 60 Armor
Military Sickle 26p
Average: 15
High: 24
Low: 7
MW NCS 35c
Average: 13
High: 24
Low: 1
Not by much, and anyone with less than 60 armor, which is still probably the majority of players you will be doing more damage to. Plus you get +30 more reach
Believe me, the general feeling is i deliver more damage with the non loomed sickle than with the mw nordic champions, 3 hits at most to defeat a fully armored guy, quite often 2, which is almost never the case with the sword. And that's clearly viewed in the low damage ot the sword .... And my ps is 6 at the moment. And we're talking about a nonloomed sickle, imagina it with a full looomed steel pick, which i don't like to use because of its visible superiority (feels to me like playing with cheats). Yes it's shorter, but it does nearly double the damage of the sword. As i said i could live with it delivering 30% more than cutting, but not 80%
mw steel pick
Minimum: 15
Average: 24.5
Maximum: 34
mw nordic champions
Minimum: 5
Average: 15
Maximum: 25
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Believe me, the general feeling is i deliver more damage with the non loomed sickle than with the mw nordic champions, 3 hits at most to defeat a fully armored guy, quite often 2, which is almost never the case with the sword. And that's clearly viewed in the low damage ot the sword .... And my ps is 6 at the moment
lol, you just hit me 3 times with a sickle and I didn't die. I was wearing a tribal warrior's outfit, 27 armor :/ 5 IF, 18 str...
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lol, you just hit me 3 times with a sickle and I didn't die. I was wearing a tribal warrior's outfit, 27 armor :/ 5 IF, 18 str...
No, i saw you, i hit you twice. One was a side glance.
Anyway, we can try it 20 times and take conclusions :D
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No, i saw you, i hit you twice. One was a side glance.
Anyway, we can try it 20 times and take conclusions :D
Was no glance there, saying it takes you 2-3 hits to defeat a fully armored guy with it is BS.
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Up.
I play a 1h/shield this gen, 15/21. And steel pick is really... horrible.
I went to the duel server, and even with only 130wpf in 1h, i can feint, and still hit my opponent even if he tried to chamber my feint. Wich is... lol.
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Up.
I play a 1h/shield this gen, 15/21. And steel pick is really... horrible.
I went to the duel server, and even with only 130wpf in 1h, i can feint, and still hit my opponent even if he tried to chamber my feint. Wich is... lol.
That is in no way exclusive to steelpick, and 130 wpf is quite a lot.
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That is in no way exclusive to steelpick, and 130 wpf is quite a lot.
Well that explains a lot. Saying 130 wpf is a lot for a 1h shows you have nfi of what you're talking. You can actually reach that with 3 wm....................
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What is a "a lot" then? :D Do you even know the difference between 130 and 150-160 wpf?
Hint: it's almost non-existant speedwise.
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What is a "a lot" then? :D Do you even know the difference between 130 and 150-160 wpf?
Hint: it's almost non-existant speedwise.
Every bit counts, you know. Saying 130 wpf is a lot by crpg standars is a bit lame, you would be with me on that.
Anyway I REALLY suggest that you play 1h for a little while with and without pick, then come again.
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Every bit counts, you know. Saying 130 wpf is a lot by crpg standars is a bit lame, you would be with me on that.
Anyway I REALLY suggest that you play 1h for a little while with and without pick, then come again.
Every bit counts yes, doh. But how much? Not much. I didn't say 130 is a lot, I said it's quite a lot. Which it is, it's easily enough WPF. People have been playing with 0 WM (110 wpf) and have said they've not noticed any difference to 160 wpf. And good players, at that. I personally get WM points just for the extra-damage, not speed.
The point was, however, that Bulz's wpf has nothing to do with him being able to feint and still hit even though someone chambered him. If he had 0 wpf that'd be something to report.
You have no idea what I have and have not played. Your inability to adapt to fighting steel pick just shows either lack of skill or willingness to do something other than whine.
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Every bit counts yes, doh. But how much? Not much. I didn't say 130 is a lot, I said it's quite a lot. Which it is, it's easily enough WPF. People have been playing with 0 WM (110 wpf) and have said they've not noticed any difference to 160 wpf. And good players, at that. I personally get WM points just for the extra-damage, not speed.
The point was, however, that Bulz's wpf has nothing to do with him being able to feint and still hit even though someone chambered him. If he had 0 wpf that'd be something to report.
You have no idea what I have and have not played. Your inability to adapt to fighting steel pick just shows either lack of skill or willingness to do something other than whine.
Who said i have inability of adapt to the pick???
It's simply i don't want to play with it ... so i don't adapt my build for that. Even with that, when using it (or een a military), my k:d explodes, cause most hits are finishers (that doesn't happens with cut that much).
Anyway, as I said A BILLION times, though you still didn't understand ............................... IT'S ABOUT THE REQUIREMENT (not all of the other things, which are a different tale) ............... fuck i hope i don't have to say again. And thw whinig comes from you. We're talking about just giving a requirement so no low-str builds can use the pick ... which is by all standards normal and pretty logical ... you whine cause you don't want it changed, but LOOK AT THE NUMBERS OF THE OF THE POLL.
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Who said it? Well, if you looked at the name of the guy you quoted, it's me who said it. Post some screens of your K:D exploding?
You can say it a billion times more, it changes nothing. You want the requirement to be changed, and this is news because..?
Poll numbers are unimportant, currently the balance devs think steel pick is fine as it is :D
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Poll numbers are unimportant, currently the balance devs think steel pick is fine as it is :D
Oh yes, people opinion is unimportant ... you showed it clear before... go on living like that. End of that for me.
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Oh yes, people opinion is unimportant ... you showed it clear before... go on living like that. End of that for me.
c-RPG is not a democracy, so yes.
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The point was, however, that Bulz's wpf has nothing to do with him being able to feint and still hit even though someone chambered him. If he had 0 wpf that'd be something to report.
Then if my "high" wpf has nothing to do with being able to feint and still hit even though someone chambered me, then... there's something wrong with the weapon, right ?
I mean, it's the first time i managed to do such a thing. My deadliest opponent was a chambering great mauler (wtf), but instead of spamming (impossible since he does sideswings), i can feint his chambers. Speak of some lack of skill. Everybody can feint, but when feinting is superior to chambering, then it's a real problem imo.
And... 130wpf in 1h, is a "only" when you have a 15/21 build with 7wm. ;)
And hell, this steel pick is horrible. :mrgreen:
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Then if my "high" wpf has nothing to do with being able to feint and still hit even though someone chambered me, then... there's something wrong with the weapon, right ?
I mean, it's the first time i managed to do such a thing. My deadliest opponent was a chambering great mauler (wtf), but instead of spamming (impossible since he does sideswings), i can feint his chambers. Speak of some lack of skill. Everybody can feint, but when feinting is superior to chambering, then it's a real problem imo.
And... 130wpf in 1h, is a "only" when you have a 15/21 build with 7wm. ;)
And hell, this steel pick is horrible. :mrgreen:
Unimportant ... :D :D :D :D
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Then if my "high" wpf has nothing to do with being able to feint and still hit even though someone chambered me, then... there's something wrong with the weapon, right ?
I mean, it's the first time i managed to do such a thing. My deadliest opponent was a chambering great mauler (wtf), but instead of spamming (impossible since he does sideswings), i can feint his chambers. Speak of some lack of skill. Everybody can feint, but when feinting is superior to chambering, then it's a real problem imo.
And... 130wpf in 1h, is a "only" when you have a 15/21 build with 7wm. ;)
And hell, this steel pick is horrible. :mrgreen:
Huh? Does not compute. I meant your wpf has nothing to do with it because your wpf was quite high. It's common that you can feint and still hit the other guy even if he chambers. Especially with the 1h left slash.
But yeah, great maul? One of the slowest weapons, no wonder.
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I'll gladly do the experiment against a morningstar user with 150wpf (that's good enough right) and with "only" 70 wpf in 1h for me, then if it's possible, it's definitely a problem. Would you accept that train of though Xant ?
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No... it's just normal you can feint vs a chamber. Try it out in native duel, if you do it properly it'll work every time. Only the slow feints fail.
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definitely 14 str requirment or more, agreed.
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Couldn't agree more with this. Raise the requirement.
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So 73.4% of the guys voting, thinks that requirement should be put at least in 14. More or less half of those think 14 is ok, the other half thinks it should be 15 or more. 5% thinks 13 is enough and 20% to leave it as it is.
I think these numbers deserve that the balancing team have a serious look at this.
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Up in order to devs taking account of the votes.
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Bump for devs to take this into account.
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I'm sure devs have seen it already, no need to threadomancy it.