cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Snoozer on September 26, 2011, 08:43:18 am

Title: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Snoozer on September 26, 2011, 08:43:18 am
WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR OF THE TWO BUILDS????

I choose 30/9 build as the deadliest of the two

it is pretty much a standard build for infantryDARE I SAY as common as the 18/18 build

whenever u see a 9/30 build hes USUALLY just a fail troll imo

LET THE ARGUING BEGIN!!!!!!!
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Vibe on September 26, 2011, 08:54:40 am
Quite obvious, this one.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Anwyl on September 26, 2011, 08:58:27 am
I voted the 30s/9a as deadliest

But I do have a 9s/30a alt that can rack up some major kills.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Ganner on September 26, 2011, 10:16:27 am
I find my 30/12 highly effective.  No IF all PS Ath and WM i can really rock people who arent ready for it.  Especially when they see someone in light armor running at them with a mace.  But of the two, 30/9
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Snoozer on September 26, 2011, 01:47:32 pm
well the only requirement is that they must be 30/9 or 9/30

i wanted it to be a little more extreme but this is a  good start


http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm
so if you have never tried this calc go have fun, the only requirement is that they have to be a 30/9 or a 9/30 other then that everything stat wise is up for grabs
(i do not know if the calc is out of date btw so there might be out of date damage cals in it)

this is basically a poll of who considers what more deadly?an agi build or a str build

Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Snoozer on September 26, 2011, 01:54:12 pm
Quite obvious, this one.

sorry i did not understand your answer from your post,r u referring to your build or one of the mentioned builds?if so please post it so we can further discuss it
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: MrShine on September 26, 2011, 03:23:49 pm
Not even the remotest of questions here: 30/9 will be a deadlier warrior in melee combat.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: JiblyjibjibJiblet on September 26, 2011, 03:33:08 pm
All depends on the skills of the player.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: MrShine on September 26, 2011, 03:48:30 pm
All depends on the skills of the player.

Assuming two players of equal skill 30/9 should win every time.  They will 1 shot the 9/30 player, and will likely be able to take 5-6+ hits before going down.  Probably more.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on September 26, 2011, 05:34:32 pm
Give me back my 9 str warspear and ill show you how its done!
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 26, 2011, 05:40:50 pm
Assuming equal skill players, the agi will score a few hits on the str and then make a mistake and get floored.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Warcat on September 26, 2011, 06:12:50 pm
agi would win a duel, but str is deadliest.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Thucydides on September 26, 2011, 07:55:40 pm
agi would just backpeddle to victory
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on September 26, 2011, 07:57:35 pm
agi would win a duel, but str is deadliest.

This. If the agiplayer is skilled he will be able to dodge most attacks without having to block then, then strike when the opponent is at the end of the attack and still cant block, well this is what i did. Str however has a much bigger advantage in battle as they can take hits and almost oneshot everything.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Joxer on September 26, 2011, 08:03:41 pm
My build is 15str/30agi.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Bobthehero on September 26, 2011, 08:19:07 pm
agi would win a duel, but str is deadliest.

/me begs to differ
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Paul on September 27, 2011, 01:52:35 am
al adin
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Jarlek on September 27, 2011, 02:14:40 am
Well, if it's ANY build at all as long as they are 30/9 or 9/30, then I say that the 9/30 will win. Basically because of ranged.

Like this HA/HC here on a heavy horse:
(click to show/hide)

Would beat anything except a Hoplite (hoplite is the best HA/HC counter

Or this trololol light xbow user on foot.
(click to show/hide)
Would shoot whatever STR build before it could do shit. Except it's counters 1h&shield or Hoplite. Cav could also work but I think it would be too easy for him to dodge it.


I hope you see my point. But what stops the STR from taking ranged? Well, the wpf requirement. It would make them not be able to get the full boost from their PD/PT (but xbow might work) and they would have to take away their armour (losing their main advantage) to not get too high wpf loss.

Really, the ranged kiting hit-and-run would make the AGI build best in a duel. Anyone have any counters to this?
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: MrShine on September 27, 2011, 05:47:09 am
Really, the ranged kiting hit-and-run would make the AGI build best in a duel. Anyone have any counters to this?

3 shield skill,  board shield or 2 smaller shields, and heavy armor on the 30/9.

Not enough projectiles to take the 30/9 down if he turtles.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Cyclopsided on September 27, 2011, 07:42:38 am
Did people really say 9/30 would beat 30/9 in a duel?
No. What? No. I'm sorry but that is not going to happen assuming equal skill.
30/9 with same gear & skill will win 90%+ of the time in a duel. I invite everyone with a 9/30 to duel my 30/9 in NA 3 duel.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Xant on September 27, 2011, 08:38:37 am
Did people really say 9/30 would beat 30/9 in a duel?
No. What? No. I'm sorry but that is not going to happen assuming equal skill.
30/9 with same gear & skill will win 90%+ of the time in a duel. I invite everyone with a 9/30 to duel my 30/9 in NA 3 duel.

90% is a low number, too. More like 99%-100%. If the 30/9 build uses proper armor then the 9/30 will need like.. 15-20 hits to kill? Maybe more. Not to mention all the glances, which means the 30/9 doesn't even needs to block, he can attack and count on a glance.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Snoozer on September 27, 2011, 06:43:04 pm
wow thank you all this is my most successful thread.i thank all of you for your input its so interesting to me to see what others though of the subject

the tally is as of right now
30 strength/9 agility 60 (76.9%)
9 strength/30 agility 18 (23.1%)

so seeing how essentially there r two bases of ALL builds(one strength the other agility)
do you think agility should be buffed so that 30/9 and 9/30 would be on equal terms?
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Xant on September 27, 2011, 06:49:36 pm
Uh, no? Agility is fine. If 9/30 would be on equal terms in 1v1 combat with 30/9, then why would you ever go for more than 9 str? Think about it.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Bobthehero on September 27, 2011, 06:52:13 pm
To use gear and I'll take a 30/9 melee build over any 9/30 ones.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Jarlek on September 27, 2011, 06:58:47 pm
3 shield skill,  board shield or 2 smaller shields, and heavy armor on the 30/9.

Not enough projectiles to take the 30/9 down if he turtles.
Horse, remember? That's why I said everything except hoplite. A 1h would be too short, twohander would lose the shield (making the HA/HC able to shoot them). Only a hoplite would really have any chance, but then it would be the build class and not the build specific that beats it.

But if we say no ranged and/or no horse, than the 30/9 would win.

ALSO! There is ONE big fault with this. What weapons and armour are people allowed to use? If they have to have same equipment than BOTH has to have cheap armour and BOTH must be less than requirement 3 horse/shield/bow with a less than 9 str weapon. THEN theSTR build would win, but as I mentioned above: If they could take any weapon/armour/equipment they can then the AGI HA/HC plated charger build would win against anything except a hoplite.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Snoozer on September 27, 2011, 08:04:20 pm
ALSO! There is ONE big fault with this. What weapons and armour are people allowed to use? If they have to have same equipment than BOTH has to have cheap armour and BOTH must be less than requirement 3 horse/shield/bow with a less than 9 str weapon. THEN theSTR build would win, but as I mentioned above: If they could take any weapon/armour/equipment they can then the AGI HA/HC plated charger build would win against anything except a hoplite.
oh no the only requirement is 30/9 nd 9/30 other then that you can do anything you wish

Uh, no? Agility is fine. If 9/30 would be on equal terms in 1v1 combat with 30/9, then why would you ever go for more than 9 str? Think about it.
of course im thinking about it.you are limited to the requirements of 9 str, that cuts off  almost ALL high tier weapons and armor and your attacks are glance quite a bit.(go look at all of your gear and see what you can use with only 9 strength)

so in other words you are borderline completely dependent on strength in every way without strength you cant have a viable character therefore agility is essentially useless without strength.and whats wrong if it were a possibility you only needed to go 9 strength to have a contender build when as of right now unless you have a lot of skill you will most likely get swatted like a pesky fly?

should the str requirements of weapons be lowered?
should agility have more agile movements in combats(higher jumps better footwork)
should inertia be added to the movement of characters to where agility an athletics make you faster inertia wise?

im just curius to see what the community thinks about the logic of it
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Xant on September 27, 2011, 08:06:20 pm
It's dependent on strength yes, so? Balanced builds are the best builds, agi is fine. You're not supposed to dip too heavily into it.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Snoozer on September 27, 2011, 08:07:18 pm
oh my bad i edited my last reply too late Q_Q
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Snoozer on September 27, 2011, 08:10:13 pm
It's dependent on strength yes, so? Balanced builds are the best builds, agi is fine. You're not supposed to dip too heavily into it.
y not?

 i would love agility to be a viable choice not just strength
i have to be 18 strength only because the weapons i use are in that tier not because i want to be a balance build if certain weapons where on lets say 15 str or 12 str mark im certain more would choos agility builds as well
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: MrShine on September 27, 2011, 08:16:19 pm
y not?

because you kill people with strength, not dancing.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Snoozer on September 27, 2011, 08:21:32 pm
because you kill people with strength, not dancing.
lol wtf dancing? r u serous you do not need to be strong to be able to kill someone.yes its a factor but it should not be THE ONLY factor.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Bonze on September 27, 2011, 09:14:28 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYJdywYiz3c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYJdywYiz3c)

Vote for chocolate chip cookie waffen ss
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: MrShine on September 27, 2011, 09:28:14 pm
lol wtf dancing? r u serous you do not need to be strong to be able to kill someone.yes its a factor but it should not be THE ONLY factor.

Agility is utility, strength is for actually doing stuff.
Why should someone with a ridiculous amount of strength be on equal footing in combat with some pansy that can't even use half of the weapons and armor?

TL;DR: dancing.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Jarlek on September 27, 2011, 11:41:30 pm
Agility is utility, strength is for actually doing stuff.
Why should someone with a ridiculous amount of strength be on equal footing in combat with some pansy that can't even use half of the weapons and armor?

TL;DR: dancing.
Both str and agility are dependent on muscles. A strong but not agile man is not a pansy, but neither is a man with less strength but loads of agility.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Thucydides on September 27, 2011, 11:46:06 pm
Both str and agility are dependent on muscles. A strong but not agile man is not a pansy, but neither is a man with less strength but loads of agility.

if only CRPG had a "thief" class that did x3 damage per backstab.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Cyclopsided on September 27, 2011, 11:51:47 pm
If you haven't gathered this yet, I'll explain it Snoozer.
Balanced builds = good
Strength based builds = good
Agility based builds = barely viable.

And nobody gives a fuck. "Why dancer should do damage? I don't get it" "He dance, he no do damage; this is good"
Basically the mentality is: An agility build can traverse ground and help teammates in a support or ninja function. Thus they are battle effective by being able to gank enemies faster and choose fights.
But if they ever encounter a strength build of equal skill they can't actually kill it. Yeah they can go places, but they can't do work when they get there.
The mentality of a large majority of players honestly believe that is a fair trade off.

As somebody who plays most of his time switching between a 30/9 character & a 12/30 character? It is pretty obvious which one is better. I can be distracted and not even be looking at my screen with my 30/9 and get a positive KDR. I almost exclusively run around in dresses and ridiculous clothing on my 30/9 and unless I am asleep my KDR is positive with it.
my 12/30 Character? If I put my entire focus in the game I can go 2:1 ratio. If I don't, I might break even, And keep in mind only 20% of these kills will be 1 v 1 fights or against someone who has full HP. If A stray arrow hits me from a longbow I will die in one hit. if I make a SINGLE MISTAKE I will die in one hit to any melee character. If i am distracted I will be 0 kills 2 deaths by the second round. It can be used almost exclusively for support and ninja-ing archers and that is 80% of said kills. It won't last in 1v1 melee fights.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Snoozer on September 28, 2011, 12:36:31 am
If you haven't gathered this yet, I'll explain it Snoozer.
Balanced builds = good
Strength based builds = good
Agility based builds = barely viable.

And nobody gives a fuck. "Why dancer should do damage? I don't get it" "He dance, he no do damage; this is good"
Basically the mentality is: An agility build can traverse ground and help teammates in a support or ninja function. Thus they are battle effective by being able to gank enemies faster and choose fights.

whats this dancing shit lol? im always a balance build simply because all the weapons of the pole class i use require me to do so and to say a something "is supporting" means its nerfed i always loved how people tell me long maul is "a supportive weapon" <that is bullshit thats a sugar coating for its useless seeing how u need the team to protect you in order to use it (i cant say anything about great mail ive never used it but it seems more effective to me imo)

agility is therefore useless

Both str and agility are dependent on muscles. A strong but not agile man is not a pansy, but neither is a man with less strength but loads of agility.
^ty i do not get where the hates from saying i want to dance around i want agility to be a viable build choice not some useless thing that the only reason a melee class would use it for  is to "run away"

its said its viable for HA but is it??? u have 3 power draw and 3 horse archery so your in the same boat as infantry u cant do shit
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Matey on September 28, 2011, 01:26:14 am
shoulda gone to the extreme with this... 36/3 or 3/36. youd think it would be equally viable or worthless to max either stat... but youd be wrong! BUFF AGI!
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Jarlek on September 28, 2011, 02:02:23 am
-snip-
It won't last in 1v1 melee fights.
AND THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO POINT OUT!

YES the STR is better in melee, but in a straight up 1v1 the agi can still easily win by ranged and horse domination.

-snip-
its said its viable for HA but is it??? u have 3 power draw and 3 horse archery so your in the same boat as infantry u cant do shit
I say it is still viable for HA. You now can get piercing. But also remember the HC. The light xbow is only requirement 7!
Light xbow, 2x steel bolts and a mace, some HA, 7/8 riding and a plated charger and the STR build would still lose. Only way it could would be as a hoplite, but that would be the CLASS and not the build winning.

Rawr, the agi build can still win but only by being a complete douche.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on September 28, 2011, 02:07:12 am
niether........because in a melee fight with cloth for armor. Agi wins nearly all the time. If it is heavy armor then str wins nearly all the time.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Snoozer on September 28, 2011, 03:17:27 am
AND THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO POINT OUT!

YES the STR is better in melee, but in a straight up 1v1 the agi can still easily win by ranged and horse domination.
I say it is still viable for HA. You now can get piercing. But also remember the HC. The light xbow is only requirement 7!
Light xbow, 2x steel bolts and a mace, some HA, 7/8 riding and a plated charger and the STR build would still lose. Only way it could would be as a hoplite, but that would be the CLASS and not the build winning.

Rawr, the agi build can still win but only by being a complete douche.

you would only have 3 power draw and 3 horse riding i dont think you would be very accurate would you?

niether........because in a melee fight with cloth for armor. Agi wins nearly all the time. If it is heavy armor then str wins nearly all the time.
the ONLY requirement is the stats so everything is fare game and no doubt if your str you would be in heavy armor
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Cyclopsided on September 28, 2011, 05:28:08 am
niether........because in a melee fight with cloth for armor. Agi wins nearly all the time. If it is heavy armor then str wins nearly all the time.
No, god no. Huge misconception.
In cloth, strength builds are even better. They aren't slow in any ways.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 28, 2011, 05:29:47 am
Yeah... a 36/3 12PS 11IF build wearing just robes and leather gauntlets, using a fast weapon like a HBS... You will not notice the wpf difference with good timing. Range is your only enemy really. One or two blocks and you can even catch a back peddler. Move on to a 30/9 build and you will do great if you know how to block.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Thucydides on September 28, 2011, 05:31:14 am
I don't notice the WPF Difference using my GLA and 0 wm
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Balton on September 28, 2011, 06:27:26 am
You are all basing the premise of the argument incorrectly.

These are all assuming equal skill:
In a 1v1 inf vs inf battle, does the STR heavy or AGI heavy build win? The STR heavy.
In a 1v1 cav vs cav battle, does the STR heavy or AGI heavy build win? The AGI heavy.
In a 1v1 archer vs archer battle, does the STR heavy or AGI heavy build win? The AGI heavy.
I haven't played xbow or throwing since all the changes, so I can't really say much about them.

But the way the game is currently designed, each 'class' does better by leaning towards the proper attribute to build around. It just so happens that for infantry, it's strength.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Kenji on September 28, 2011, 06:43:05 am
Look at all these arguments! I guess this is why you go balanced build with plated armor on your torso, great lance/steel shield in your hands, and a plated pony under your crotch.

Everything else will be happy-go-lucky :mrgreen:
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Snoozer on September 28, 2011, 07:06:48 am
In a 1v1 archer vs archer battle, does the STR heavy or AGI heavy build win? The AGI heavy.
well idk the agi would had more wpf but the str would have more power draw and a stronger bow so im on the fence on that one actually i think str would when for what i have stated
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Cyclopsided on September 28, 2011, 01:00:50 pm
I think 24/15 archer vs a 15/24 archer would split about 40/60 for win/loss.
Extra fire rate can pin the strength build. But strength build only will need a few hits to kill the agi.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 28, 2011, 05:19:12 pm
Personal experience, money is on the agi archer for archer duels... Only a difference of one arrow or so, but low wm is not fun.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Jarlek on September 28, 2011, 05:36:55 pm
you would only have 3 power draw and 3 horse riding i dont think you would be very accurate would you?
the ONLY requirement is the stats so everything is fare game and no doubt if your str you would be in heavy armor
What have you been smoking? Riding and WM is AGI skills, you would have loads of riding and wpf, making yourself pinpoint accurate. Yeah, you would need more hits, but with pierce the armour wont be that good anymore. Also against shielders you can just bump them to death.

Personal experience, money is on the agi archer for archer duels... Only a difference of one arrow or so, but low wm is not fun.
Agreed. Also a STR archer would have very bad accuracy and if we were going with the "30 in one 9 in the other" then the STR wouldn't even get the bonuses from all it's PD because of low wpf. Could still take some in IF or something to get some bonus but it would only delay the inevitable.
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Snoozer on September 28, 2011, 06:51:58 pm
What have you been smoking? Riding and WM is AGI skills, you would have loads of riding and wpf, making yourself pinpoint accurate. Yeah, you would need more hits, but with pierce the armour wont be that good anymore. Also against shielders you can just bump them to death.


i thought horse archery was more or a factor on horse back then wpf,or everyone would just buy lots of WM and say a big "FUKUUUUUUU" to horse archery because its str f im not mistaken

EDIT: OH I SEEEEE i said horse riding not horse archery my bad man
Title: Re: WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR?
Post by: Jarlek on September 28, 2011, 06:57:24 pm
i thought horse archery was more or a factor on horse back then wpf,or everyone would just buy lots of WM and say a big "FUKUUUUUUU" to horse archery because its str f im not mistaken

EDIT: OH I SEEEEE i said horse riding not horse archery my bad man
Both riding and HA is AGI. Only difference is that Horse Archery requires 6 agi per skill and not 3 as everything else. But with 30 agility you can still get 5(!) Horse archery, making you VERY accurate even when moving (and thus can get the speed bonus without any problems).