cRPG

Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: chadz on September 24, 2011, 09:11:29 am

Title: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: chadz on September 24, 2011, 09:11:29 am
Edit: the stuff in here is somewhat outdated, please refer to page 2:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,16640.msg237857.html#msg237857

So, strat is coming dangerously close (for real), and with testing we've realised a problem.

We currently have 3 different kinds of maps:
The old one: http://c-rpg.net/calradia.jpg
The nice one: http://c-rpg.net/img/strategus/calradia_4.jpg
the Geo-Type one: http://c-rpg.net/geo_calradia.png

So what's the problem:
the "real" one is the geo one, because this one is the one the game reads to determine your movement speed, your viewing distance, your hiding possibilities etc. This is all nice and dandy, but...

the player should be able to see the same thing :P The problem with the old map is that it's
a. fugly, and
b. you cannot see the terrain properly, and
c. it's too small.

the problem with the new map, while looking awesome, is that it's
a. not exactly the right dimension,
b. it has a more isometric view to it, which makes it really really hard to spot what terrain you are walking on,
c. if you put the geo map over it, you can see the landscapes differ a bit - enough to cause headaches when moving around.

so, this is where someone of you could come into the equasion, because I know we have a lot of awesome artists in here. I, myself, am not even close to being an artist, so I have no idea if this is at all possible or it would take forever.

The goal is to
a. take the geo map,
b. resize it by exactly 400% (5900px x 4176px) (because that is the maximum zoom, and could possibly become the new standard zoom)
c. make it pretty, with whatever trick necessary,
d. while keeping it clear where what terrain is. needless to say, it's still not required to be pixel perfect, but it should give more of an idea than the 2 real maps we have now.

You can either use the nice looking map as a basis, or just replace the colors with better looking textures, or.. I have no idea, as I said, I don't know a lot about that stuff :P But you're free to do what looks good and makes sense.

In the end, I will either pick a clear winner, or do a vote, undecided on that :P

I know an heirloom isn't that much, but maybe someone wants to step in to save the rest of the cRGP community from an eyecancer :P

If I've missed someting completely, feel free to correct me.

Edit: if necessary, I can also provide you with a gimp .xcf file that has the geo map in layers.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Kingtrisp on September 24, 2011, 10:20:20 am
Spent a great deal of time on this and i think it looks much better!! :mrgreen:

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Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Paul on September 24, 2011, 10:22:00 am
I think this is worth to lose a loom point.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Kingtrisp on September 24, 2011, 10:36:38 am
Quote from: Paul on September 24, 2011, 10:22:00 am
I think this is worth to lose a loom point.

Dont remember reading that..
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: VVarlord on September 24, 2011, 11:00:47 am
I vote losing one, aswell thats copy right infringement in the one i already made
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: gazda on September 24, 2011, 11:43:02 am
putting the geo over the old one is a perfect fit
(click to show/hide)

putting geo over new(cool one) doesnt fit perfectly, there are some mountain, forest etc elements missing(indicated in black circles)
(click to show/hide)
just to make sure, Are these parts the main problem?
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Elmokki on September 24, 2011, 12:04:00 pm
Just to make it sure, is manipulating the "nice one" so that it's accurate a valid option, or would there be copyright issues or something?

Doesn't matter much though, since I bet there's gonna be someone who has tons more artistic skills than I do and that person will just draw a map that just blows everyones minds off.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: chadz on September 24, 2011, 02:08:15 pm
That shouldn't be an issue, copyright is at TW, similar to the game.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: PhantomZero on September 24, 2011, 03:39:47 pm
I couldn't help but notice that it appears there is only one bridge on the map? The bridges are denoted by a pink box right? Why is there only one around Suno and none anywhere else?
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Oberyn on September 24, 2011, 06:20:52 pm
geography *squeeeeeeeeeeee*
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: chadz on September 24, 2011, 06:25:54 pm
Quote from: gazda on September 24, 2011, 11:43:02 am
putting the geo over the old one is a perfect fit
(click to show/hide)

this is actually what we planned on doing if no one would be willing/able to provide a better version of the map. edit colors a bit, but i guess it would do the trick.

The problem is that the version gets really ugly when you zoom to the size mentioned in the OP. That's why it would be great if someone could come up with a way that makes the pic look cool in that fat resolution.

About the problem on the 2nd map: well, not only those parts - every single part where there is a sea and you can move on, or the other way around, will cause rage - understandable rage. That's why we can't use this one. Imagine moving around on the map, and suddenly you are locked. You don't know in what direction you can move, etc etc.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: The_Angle on September 24, 2011, 06:30:13 pm
I could try myself a shot at it. Starting by making the Geo map a smooth Vector. It'll probably take me two days of none-stop work.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Thomek on September 24, 2011, 06:47:54 pm
hey im also into it
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Kajia on September 24, 2011, 06:54:26 pm
hm, i could do it - but i got this other stuff to do, you know :lol:
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: gazda on September 24, 2011, 08:12:45 pm
Quote from: chadz on September 24, 2011, 09:11:29 am


Edit: if necessary, I can also provide you with a gimp .xcf file that has the geo map in layers.

yes provide us with that, it would be usefull
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Governor on September 24, 2011, 08:53:02 pm
Traditional digital map/GIS software (even map software as simple as google maps) faces the exact same problems that you're outlining here.  They solve this issue by showing different maps/panels based on your zoom level and also provide toggles for different versions of the map or layers (e.g. google maps satellite vs road map).  This also helps with page load and memory management on the client end.  It seems we already have different "layers", so at the very least it should be pretty straight forward to add in a toggle on the UI that switches between realistic view and "terrain" view.  This would also have the added benefit of being flexible for the future -- if you added a map image that was dynamically generated based on faction territories, for example, it could be toggled on in the same fashion.

If needed, you can also implement more detailed maps at closer zoom levels -- this would allow you to really focus on the graphics/details that look best at specific zooms rather than trying to find something that looks OK at every zoom.

Since the map functionality is all built into the backend, the vast majority of this work would be simply done on the frontend UI, and that is obviously ideal.

If this seems like something you'd want to pursue, I'd be happy to help out with the javascript.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Thomek on September 24, 2011, 08:53:50 pm
Here's a WiP, Layers not necessary.. anymore :D

The goal was to create a good looking map, with different-natured areas clearly visible. I softened the edges of zones a little bit for looks, since if they are hard, it creates a very strong border, unfitting for a naturalistic drawing. They are still accurate though.

The underlying map still needs adjusting, but I'll get around to it tonight.. colours and touchup, contrasts, map-key, missing no-pass areas etc.

I'l be happy for feedback too :) I know some of the textures are a bit lame.. should be drawn by hand really.. hmm.. got an idea..:)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: The_Angle on September 24, 2011, 09:16:47 pm
It looks like we're all racing to make the same thing 3:
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: The_Angle on September 24, 2011, 09:31:05 pm
Quote from: Thomek on September 24, 2011, 08:53:50 pm
Here's a WiP, Layers not necessary.. anymore :D

The goal was to create a good looking map, with different-natured areas clearly visible. I softened the edges of zones a little bit for looks, since if they are hard, it creates a very strong border, unfitting for a naturalistic drawing. They are still accurate though.

The underlying map still needs adjusting, but I'll get around to it tonight.. colours and touchup, contrasts, map-key, missing no-pass areas etc.

I'l be happy for feedback too :) I know some of the textures are a bit lame.. should be drawn by hand really.. hmm.. got an idea..:)
(click to show/hide)

All of my time gone to waste. Despair.

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Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Thomek on September 24, 2011, 10:10:06 pm
lol i want that loompoint.. bad! :)
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: SeQuel on September 25, 2011, 01:23:46 am
Quote from: Thomek on September 24, 2011, 08:53:50 pm
Here's a WiP, Layers not necessary.. anymore :D

The goal was to create a good looking map, with different-natured areas clearly visible. I softened the edges of zones a little bit for looks, since if they are hard, it creates a very strong border, unfitting for a naturalistic drawing. They are still accurate though.

The underlying map still needs adjusting, but I'll get around to it tonight.. colours and touchup, contrasts, map-key, missing no-pass areas etc.

I'l be happy for feedback too :) I know some of the textures are a bit lame.. should be drawn by hand really.. hmm.. got an idea..:)
(click to show/hide)

I really like the map, but the snow area is kinda...too white? or the colors that are within it are too not visable, like the tree's etc.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Thomek on September 25, 2011, 01:53:50 am
heres new WIP. Almost done.. if chadz give loom point, i'll finish it :)       (It contains lots of bugs atm.. but that's not been stopping us before so.. :twisted:

3mb full size jpg:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/geo_calradia8Corrected.jpg (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/geo_calradia8Corrected.jpg)

30mb TGA full size:
TGA here if someone wants to recolour or play with it:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/geo_calradia8Corrected.tga (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/geo_calradia8Corrected.tga)
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: SeQuel on September 25, 2011, 01:58:36 am
Quote from: Thomek on September 25, 2011, 01:53:50 am
heres new WIP. Almost done.. if chadz give loom point, i'll finish it :)       (It contains lots of bugs atm.. but that's not been stopping us before so.. :twisted:

3mb full size jpg:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/geo_calradia8Corrected.jpg (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/geo_calradia8Corrected.jpg)

30mb TGA full size:
TGA here if someone wants to recolour or play with it:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/geo_calradia8Corrected.tga (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/geo_calradia8Corrected.tga)

I'd give you one if I could.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Thomek on September 25, 2011, 02:04:07 am
only our Dønkey God chadzius can let loom points rain down on the mortals. Or u mean u have a loom point? Let's see if the way I made it is good enough for him. There are lots of messy areas fully zoomed in..

But chadz. it would be 10 times easier for me to fit the geo-map to the nice map, rather than repainting, moving all the small elements on the nice map.. :)

But yes, for all i know everything is synced with the city placement and other things im not aware of..

On the side.. The Geo-map feature could be a very simple way to suggest new maps and ideas. Anyone could make one in paint (almost). Then someone else could artistically fill it up like they want.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Harald on September 25, 2011, 05:07:28 am
FYI: in strategus v2 i fixed the map and it is now exactly the same as the nice looking one from TW/Yazzi (http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9845/mapinenglishcopy.jpg) (also fixed the location positions). The eyecandy map is different because i had to stretch and cut it off to fit the original strategus v1 map. v2 is also bit larger, 5900x4488 (http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/457/calradia4.jpg). There is some kind of layer support, i'm using it to overlay the territories (WIP) (https://rapidshare.com/files/1808672923/map.svg) (you can view that file with IE). Maybe we can add the geo info in v2 also as polygons? Maybe we can already switch v1 to the fixed map & locations so we dont have to do the geo map again (depending on how much work that is).
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: chadz on September 25, 2011, 06:39:06 am
The reason why we started doing the geo-map on the old map instead of the new map was that the old one, while being more ugly, has more terrain detail in it. There's lots of forests that are not in the v2 map, but are in the v1 map.

So Thomek, about editing the geo map - _if_ it's not too much trouble - take the v2 from harald ( http://c-rpg.net/calradia_4.jpg ) as the base. This is what the new pixel size is supposed to be.
Edit (&extend) the geo-map so it fits the geography in the base. Also, add the remaining bridges to the geo map :D (the pink stuff).
I think there are also some cliffs in the new base that should be added to the geo map (like cliffs at the coast, etc). And also keep these fancy forests you did in your map, even if they are not in the new base map - I think they look great and add to the gameplay. You can also edit the mountains somehow if you feel like it. As I said before, the biggest problem i have with the mountains is that they are in an isometric view, while the geo map is 2D - but I like your approach there. In general, the more terrain is added to the map (both geo and base), the better for the gameplay.

This also means that the geo map needs (new) specifications:
The size must then be exactly a 4th of the base map: 5.900px × 4.488px /4 = 1475*1122
Also, it is VERY important that in the geo map the colors aren't mixed, for obvious reasons. A pixel can be a cliff or a plain, not half of both. The colors itself don't matter that much, i'll have to edit it in the end anyway (convert to uncompressed 4bit (=16colors) PNG)

Sorry for changing the conditions halfway through the contest :P
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Huey Newton on September 25, 2011, 08:25:07 am
(click to show/hide)




heh
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Thomek on September 25, 2011, 04:45:27 pm
Ok here's a close to finished version.

It's kind of standard without bells and whistles and graded lands.. I'll grade it last :) but it must be approved.

Small pngs:
(click to show/hide)

PSD's and full rez stuff coming soon. (uhm.. psd is 461mb.. ill give it by request)
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Thomek on September 25, 2011, 06:33:37 pm
hmm.. struggling with finding a way to "posterize" the GeoMap after changes. I'll reduce colours with posterize etc, but photoshop begins to interpolate, using i.ex grey between dark green and light green. Anyone know a solution by chance?
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Thomek on September 25, 2011, 10:26:15 pm
anyway here is the psd of the current project 212mb: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/geo_calradia9.psd.zip (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/geo_calradia9.psd.zip)
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Joseph on September 26, 2011, 12:48:57 am
Looks good thomek.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: arowaine on September 26, 2011, 12:08:14 pm
Thomek awsome job ill vote for you very nice looking map and well details awsome work really!
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Thomek on September 27, 2011, 04:53:53 pm
ok chadzius.
I think I'm done.

This what you want?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/StratMapThomek.zip (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/StratMapThomek.zip)
(2 files inside, tga and png)

spoiler here for curious peeps. lowquality(! dont use):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/CalradiaThomekJpegLow.jpg (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/CalradiaThomekJpegLow.jpg)
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: dynamike on September 27, 2011, 05:20:46 pm
Love it! Good work, mate!
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: PhantomZero on September 27, 2011, 05:54:22 pm
Quote from: Thomek on September 27, 2011, 04:53:53 pm
ok chadzius.
I think I'm done.

This what you want?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/StratMapThomek.zip (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/StratMapThomek.zip)
(2 files inside, tga and png)

spoiler here for curious peeps. lowquality(! dont use):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/CalradiaThomekJpegLow.jpg (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/CalradiaThomekJpegLow.jpg)

Looks good but the mountainous terrain (grey on the geo map) looks sort of impassable and the white snowcaps of the impassable mountains (dark grey) get sort of weird near the snow territory.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Thomek on September 27, 2011, 06:57:26 pm
yeah i get you phantom.

well there is no problem to change it.. I liked having an overlaying pattern there although its not very consistent with the rest of it. Its hard to find a texture that fits with the Hills organically. They are hills.. Mountains are the white cloudy stuff, and nothing is impassable, except cliffs, rivers and ocean afaik.

The goal of the map is for it to be quite nice looking, but also to clearly show what zone you are in. (And this is the compromise)
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: chadz on September 27, 2011, 08:56:28 pm
a++ would conquer again.

if anyone else is working on something, say so in the next 24h. then i'll set some deadline, otherwise i'll declare thomek winner :)
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: SeQuel on September 28, 2011, 02:15:23 am
Gratz Thomek! Well earned!
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: RandomDude on September 29, 2011, 02:45:53 am
good job
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Camaris on September 29, 2011, 02:21:53 pm
Tbh Thomek is getting suspicious to me... first katana buff...(not to forget throwing buff...) now map contest win...is there some manlove going on with the devteam?
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: PhantomZero on September 29, 2011, 04:47:59 pm
Ya well I dunno, maybe because he was the only guy to actually make a map, hmmm kind of hard to lose a competition where you are the only competitor, but I bet if anyone could do it, Thomek could.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Camaris on September 29, 2011, 05:58:57 pm
There for sure were other maps but devteam only allowed thomeks map to be posted.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Thomek on September 29, 2011, 06:31:32 pm
I have a hidden desire to be a member of the dev-team. There. It's out in the open.
But, that would be in serious conflict with RL matters. So I play in stead, trying to forget them.. :D

Besides I cannot program at all, cannot model, I cannot draw, i cannot make internet pages.. I have some casual photoshop skills that's all. I also have lots of thoughts on games that i need to vent somewhere lol :)

So yeah :)
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Shik on September 29, 2011, 07:55:48 pm
One of the two mountain passes from the steppe territory to the snow territory seems to be blocked.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Thomek on September 29, 2011, 09:35:46 pm
its not blocked, it's hilly area. (probably traveling slower, seeing further)

I know it's perhaps not so clear, but I suppose the map will come with a legend/key for what the different areas are.

I needed a good way to represent hills, and I choose the dotted pattern. I have an alternate line pattern, or even other solutions at hand, so there is no problem to change them. I assume I have to adjust and do final changes later on anyway, so I hold and wait for feedback. There probably are bugs in it, although, it should not be... :)   I especially suspect changes when cities and villages are added.

Also.. I should beautify the black lines representing cliffs..

Anyway, I'm open to input!

Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Thomek on October 01, 2011, 03:33:26 pm
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/GEOCAL_Release03.zip (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/486399/GEOCAL_Release03.zip)

I worked a bit further on it.

The graphical map:
* The graphical map is now better looking than ever imo (more colour and tone variation) , and has a bit different representation of hills. (stripes now)
* I also fixed a missing cliff.

The GeoMap
* Fixed the missing cliff
* Repaired all the "Pixel traps" I could find in regards to blocked areas. (Coast and hills, with only 1 direction out)
* Repaired Trapped in areas. Around cliffs by the sea and map edge, there are no longer risk of spawning inside an unreachable area. Blocked them off with solid black in the geomap.

The whole map should now be safe to spawn in. (As you should not be trapped, unless u spawn on an island.. Dunno what chadz plans to do with those. Should I block them off with black on the geomap?) There also should be always at least 2 adherent directions out from any blocked off type pixel.

There may still be slightly off pixels here and there, but since you can move, I don't know if players will notice it. Especially since there is a colour in the png I haven't identified! 11 is too few colours, looks good at 13. Where and what is the 12th colour?

I still chose to leave the "Desert Forest" areas vaguely represented by palm trees. Do we need accurate representation of this? Is that even a map type? If it is not  a map type, I suggest we clear out the whole desert with yellow, and leave the palm trees on the graphical map for prettyness.

Now where is my loompoint? xD
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: The_Angle on October 01, 2011, 04:58:13 pm
Don't give him the loom point. Lol.
Title: Re: Artistic talents - win a loom point!
Post by: Jarlek on October 01, 2011, 09:39:58 pm
The loom point is a lie!

(click to show/hide)