cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Thtb on January 26, 2011, 10:54:29 pm

Title: Katanas...
Post by: Thtb on January 26, 2011, 10:54:29 pm
Anyone else feels like they are the most dominating weapon? Most players tend to use them (in b4 weeaboos) due to there low price, high speed and easy spam I'd asume... are there any intention to return towards a more balanced selection of weapons. If you desire so, I'll take some screenshots and paint red circles around the katanas, but you all do play the game and anyone without heavy bias should be able to see my point.

How do you deal with spamtana?
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Xant on January 26, 2011, 10:55:42 pm
Low price? Wut? Katanas are ok, at least when not heirloomed (masterwork is pretty fast.. though personally I don't have a problem with it)... the range is pretty shortish too.
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Ninja_Totoro on January 26, 2011, 10:57:18 pm
If youve ever played for more than 10 minutes you would know that spamming is an illusion for noobs to hide behind.

Anyone with any level of self control can easily control and destroy a "spammer".

Oh and, Katanas are nowhere near long enough to be spammed succesfully, theres to much glancing and bounceback.
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Babelfish on January 26, 2011, 11:00:05 pm
Quote from: Thtb on January 26, 2011, 10:54:29 pm
How do you deal with spamtana?

Move your mouse to a direction, press RMB...?

Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Kaelaen on January 26, 2011, 11:00:58 pm
Seems to me more people use them not because they are inherently superior, but because it goes with their outfit or looks cool in their opinion.  Also, what Babelfish said.
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 26, 2011, 11:03:04 pm
Longsword has 1 more swing damage, 7 more pierce damage, 11 longer range and a secondary mode and 4 less speed and costs 3000 gold less.

I use it for style.
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Babelfish on January 26, 2011, 11:05:55 pm
Quote from: Ninja_Khorin on January 26, 2011, 11:03:04 pm
Longsword has 1 more swing damage, 7 more pierce damage, 11 longer range and a secondary mode and 4 less speed and costs 3000 gold less.

I use it for style.

+1

Was thinking about pointing out that to him myself, but i feared it would fall on deaf ears :/
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Gorath on January 26, 2011, 11:20:01 pm
Man Cleaver > Katana

Nothing says RAGE like an unbalanced, slow, heavy slag of steel with no lolstab capability.  /manfist
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Stormcrow on January 26, 2011, 11:27:19 pm
Compare bastard sword and Katana

Bastard Sword
Price 3086
weight 1.8
requirement 9
spd rtng 99
weapon length 101
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 23 pierce

Katana
Price 8212
weight 1.25
requirement 9
spd rtng 102
weapon length 95
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 18 pierce

Bastard sword has +5 length, +5 thrust and is 5000 gold cheaper than katana. Bastard sword is in my opinion the better sword
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Ninja_Totoro on January 26, 2011, 11:35:25 pm
The reason people hate on the katana is because they think the weapon is op, whereas infact the person wielding is normally a ninja, who are generally good duelers.

Some people just cant admit that their betters beat them.
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Rheinhardt on January 26, 2011, 11:37:40 pm
I could stand all Japanese crap being removed from the mod entirely, right down to the ninja clothes.
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 26, 2011, 11:38:03 pm
Also, ninjas have high agi builds.  Which plays a bigger role in our fast swings than the weapon speed.
Reinhardt, there are no ninja clothes.
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on January 27, 2011, 12:25:40 am
(click to show/hide)

Its ALL about the speed. I use a Heavy Bastard sword, but I might change back to "normal" Bastard sword, when i get 5-6 PS.
If you make an agility build, range is not an issue. It actually makes more problems, then it does good for agility build. I just need to block the first strike, and then I am in the range forever. ( in a typical situation that is )

Katana is a perfect duel weapon, so if you feel slow against it - mostly it is because of you low WPP build. I believe most ninjas have over 21 Agility. In the same sense you can not complain about Hunting Bow being faster then Long Bow, 1 vs 1 Hunting bowman will destroy a Longbowman, if they both have equal "aiming skill".

That is from my personal experience though, I am not a good player, just played a lot... I would use a sword with Katanas speed any time, but its Japanese looks are not for me, hehe. Spiked Mace has 100 speed, but it is just way too ugly...
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 27, 2011, 12:57:10 am
Ninjas tend to have minimum 24 agility.
I'm a 24 agi 15 str, but I know many who have 27/12
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Leiknir on January 27, 2011, 01:34:27 am
Stop trying to balance everything 1:1, the usual katana wielder* gets killed pretty easy by ranged, this ranged guy gets killed by some sneaky cav, and that sneaky cav dies to you. Circle of balance, learn what you can destroy and avoid the rest.

* those high agi spamming ninjas, without high agi the katanas speed alone is not that awesome
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Gorath on January 27, 2011, 02:56:40 am
Quote from: Leiknir on January 27, 2011, 01:34:27 am
Stop trying to balance everything 1:1

1:1 is the only true balance in a PvP game.  Any other type of balancing measure is a failure and cop-out.
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: EponiCo on January 27, 2011, 03:04:30 am
Quote from: Leiknir on January 27, 2011, 01:34:27 am
Stop trying to balance everything 1:1, the usual katana wielder* gets killed pretty easy by ranged, this ranged guy gets killed by some sneaky cav, and that sneaky cav dies to you. Circle of balance, learn what you can destroy and avoid the rest.

* those high agi spamming ninjas, without high agi the katanas speed alone is not that awesome

Only if they stop whining about archers ... :P
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Furax on January 27, 2011, 03:25:57 am
Quote from: Ninja_Totoro on January 26, 2011, 10:57:18 pm
If youve ever played for more than 10 minutes you would know that spamming is an illusion for noobs to hide behind.
+1
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Gorath on January 27, 2011, 03:36:05 am
Quote from: Ninja_Totoro on January 26, 2011, 10:57:18 pm
If youve ever played for more than 10 minutes you would know that spamming is an illusion for noobs to hide behind.

While I understand your point in a 1v1, spamming does exist and I employ it often in group battles.

1)  Equip large chopping weapon (2h lolsword, Man Cleaver, Poleaxe, Barmace works too)
2)  Run into middle of a group of enemies and start doing figure 8 patterns
3)  Click LMB as fast as humanly possible
4)  Roll 3d6 to determine how many people you kill before getting put down
4a)  If the number rolled is > the number of enemies, go back to 2)
4b)  If the number rolled is < the number of enemies, continue to 5)
5)  lol.... lol your spammy little heart out
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Thomek on January 27, 2011, 04:16:02 am
To OP.

Ninjas use Katanas only for RP use. So many swords are better all-round than katanas..

The Danish and German greatswords are in my opinion the very best ones for all round use. Perhaps a bit longish for some siege situations but nevertheless. The range make it easy for them to stay far away out of 1h ranges, and they do way more damage than Katanas..

You should also know that most Ninjas focus on 1 thing build wise. Speed. Swing speed and athletics + low armor gives us the kind of armor many other players don't have. My own build is probably the fastest practical build out there, and coupled with the fastest sword it is quite mean.

Athletics=Armor. You can run away from any engagement, and almost no one can catch you. You can choose your battles. Kite people. Create situations where you have the advantage, pull the enemy into disadvantage, control the fight, jump places other players cannot, surprise-jump cav, be places faster than people would think you could be there, the list goes on. Only similar 8-9 athletics builds gives you problems.. Archers miss you because they either:

1. Have problems leading you because of unconventional movement speed.
2. You can dodge arrows more effectively.

Cavalry has trouble because you can either dodge them, close on them too fast, jump-spear, jump slash..

Of course, the trade off is that there is little room for mistake, as you go down in very few hits, you don't do much damage, you usually must block the first hit from other polearms/2h to get close enough to deal damage.. Many of the popular 1 handers actually outrange the katanas now, and some of them approach katanas in speed.  (But that's how we like it)

With only 4PS I absolutely depend on hitting the heads of other people to survive to have efficiency. Perhaps you met some specialist Ninjas that did insane damage, well that was the reason. Tin can's can go down in 2 or 3 well placed hits though. The average hits to take down most players is 2-3 for me..

My build:
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Hit points: 49
Strength: 12
Agility: 27
Converted: 8
Ironflesh: 1
Power Strike: 4
Athletics: 9
Weapon Master: 9
Two Handed: 181
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Torp on January 27, 2011, 08:13:09 am
i have the same build as thomek right now (only with less wpf), and even though it is the fastest non-joke build i'veseen, i can still only effectively outspam very few people, maybe 1/5 or something. Reason? You have to be a hell lot faster than your enemy to outspam them.
I cant even outspam some average guy with 18/18 build and a 95 speed polearm! (don't say im doing it wrong, i know how to press LMB)
ANd even if i just try to spam, they will just move away or another enemy will come and kill me.
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Paul on January 27, 2011, 09:55:19 am
One reason the katana lost abit of its "outspam" ability is that we lowered its weight from 2 to 1.25. Before that the katana often stunned a lighter weapon with the first hit, allowing to add a second one and then giving the clueless victim the idea of getting spammed beyond hope.
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: v/onMega on January 27, 2011, 10:12:35 am
Solltest du nicht arbeiten krampe?

@Thomek.
Most players died after 2-3 hits?

My last gen char had 8 ps and weapons with a better output.
The range of hits needed was...now guess...2-3.
So id say, in terms of dmg output these agibuilds still rock.
In general katana is obv. a really good weapon and some ninjas are gooood players which makes it rly hard.

I am currently trying out an agibased build to check if ill miss more str and just to get to now what is most comfortable to play xD.

I kinda think ill end up @ a balanced build anyways xD
21/21 @ 33 with my spamtastic balanced 2Hander or german lolsword.
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: krampe on January 27, 2011, 10:54:23 am
Möga
(click to show/hide)

Agi > Str, i only miss the blockcrushing ability against turtles, now you have to outrun them.
The Katana is fine how it is imo.

P.S. Remove all weeaboos crap :P
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Quirian on January 27, 2011, 11:05:24 am
Krampe, solltest du nicht arbeiten?

Ninjas are dangerous, because in earlier days catanas bounced off every other hit, but now with lesser average armor worn its difficult to not get killed, when I see a ninja -> backpedal and get out of their range!

Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Ninja_Totoro on January 27, 2011, 11:11:23 am
Quote from: Quirian on January 27, 2011, 11:05:24 am
Krampe, solltest du nicht arbeiten?

Ninjas are dangerous, because in earlier days catanas bounced off every other hit, but now with lesser average armor worn its difficult to not get killed, when I see a ninja -> backpedal and get out of their range!

Then we run at you with 10 athletics and bitchslap you with our katana doing a whopping...


6 damage.

awwwww yeeeaah.
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Leshma on January 27, 2011, 11:54:24 am
Since I've changed proffesion I have no issue with ninjas or other spammers. Actually most ninjas (good ones, especially guys like Thomek) don't spam mindlessly, they feint a lot and it looks like spam to someone who's not very experienced. Thing is, Thomek really really like to feint a lot and sometimes he makes mistake so you can kill him right at the start of duel (I'm talking about duels during battle not actual duels on duel server) if you attack him and he fucks up his feint and don't turn it into attack in time :wink:

Same goes for other better ninjas. Only ninja spammer I saw recently was that Rufio guy, but that was a week ago so maybe he started to feint as well.

Beside Ninjas, there are a lot so called Samurais using Katanas (I'm talking about randoms not Shogunates). Most of them are spammers, can't block properly, can't feint. They are really annoying if you're shielder using slower one handed weapon, they will bang on your shield and in most cases you can't do nothing (I had a really bad shielder build, really slow).

Actually most spammers don't even use Katana, they use greatswords. Lolstab spammers and the noobish of them all are naked flamberge spammers. Yeah I know flamberge is slow but these guys have a lot of agi, a lot of wpf and they are naked which means slow speed of Flamberge is negated. They are not hard to kill but are annoying and look idiotic in most cases.

Currently I think that balance is very good, maybe too much throwers around but in 22 lvls of new polearm build (without shield) I still haven't been killed by throwing weapon. I can't surge forward like a madman, have to be very careful around throwers but it's perfectly possible to kill them and come out of it without a bruise. The most annoying thing are lolcrushers, I really really hate those guys. Yes, they can be outspammed, killed but you have to be extremely careful with them while they can be even a bit careless. Although many very skilled people are using barmace, I think it's the easiest and most annoying build out there. Leave throwers for later, Katanas are fine and fix that idiotic lolcrush weapons. I don't mind their damage but make it harder to use, please. I don't want to fear of some idiot who has 21 str and up, barmace in his hand coupled with stupid range and hitbox of that weapon. I can guarantee that most of those barmace punks can't kill anyone using any noncrush weapon. That weapon is imbalanced because it gives power to the tards unlike Katanas which require some skill to use properly :wink:
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: DrKronic on January 27, 2011, 04:48:59 pm
honestly a high agi character is way more dangerous with any number of much longer but somewhat slower(basically everything 90+ speed 120+ range) weapons in the 2h/pole arsenal due to the fact that "spamurai speed" or "the rhythm of the fight" is really more a function of {(length of the weapon)*(weapon speed+weapon skill)+(fancy footwork)/(length of foe's weapon)*(foe's weapon speed+weapon skill)+(foe's fancy footwork)}  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Rumblood on January 28, 2011, 07:41:29 pm
I see a player running to me with a Katana and I think "Sweet, my next kill!"  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on January 28, 2011, 08:41:30 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on January 28, 2011, 07:41:29 pm
I see a player running to me with a Katana and I think "Sweet, my next kill!"  :mrgreen:

... holding a siege crossbow 50 meters away, on a wall.
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Xant on January 28, 2011, 10:17:56 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on January 28, 2011, 08:41:30 pm
... holding a siege crossbow 50 meters away, on a wall.

Bravery has many faces, as they say...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Rumblood on January 29, 2011, 01:43:56 am
No, I simply counter op with op. Katana, meet Bec de Archer  :P
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Vance on January 29, 2011, 02:15:52 pm
Just keep blocking and get close until they do that silly looking at the floor technique they learnt in an mmo, and then bam.
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: Nemeth on January 29, 2011, 03:33:10 pm
I have never been outspammed by Ninja, not even on my xbower who has 40 wpf in 2h and uses heavy bastard sword. Outfeinted, that's a different matter and when I was forced to fight Thomek or Khorin I went down quickly. I think basicly what Phyrex said in similar thread and some guy has it in his signature is true and correct.
Quote from: Phyrex
Spam happens because you don't attack back, have a faulty build or just plain suck.

There you go.
Title: Re: Katanas...
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 30, 2011, 12:48:38 pm
I often enough get stupidly surpised by superfast katanas. But often enough its a high agi build: He hit me three times and when I finally manage to block 1 time and strike back he's dead at once.

And that quote speaks truth. You really have to blame yourself if you got spammed to death, no matter how fast the foes weapon or build.