cRPG

Strategus => Mercenary Recruitment => Topic started by: Dach on September 12, 2011, 02:08:14 am

Title: Shik town siege test
Post by: Dach on September 12, 2011, 02:08:14 am
That was actually very entertaining!  :)

Nice equipment, we saw 2 maybe 3 catapult from the attacker, 1 siege tower (thought it seem the driver were drunk)

Defender had regular crossbow!

The fight was 20000 vs 20000, result was survivor 0 for the attacker, 17 for the defender!  :D

Grats to the attacking players that stayed all the way to the end, this native town siege map is a bitch...

Here's the near final scoreboard (Little braggin right for me! Best K/D ratio, sWalker i'm coming for you!)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Rikthor on September 12, 2011, 02:20:35 am
3 of the top 5 are LLJK? What is the world coming to.

Fun siege for the most part, gear needs a tad tweaking. We ran out of 2h'ers completely around 1k tickets left maybe? Crossbows went away very early as well but we had a ton of left over bolts.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Slantedfloors on September 12, 2011, 02:26:47 am
I thought the weapon and armour selection was fairly good, except for a lack of pierce weapons which made the initial plate armour rush hard to deal with. And yeah, crossbows ran out pretty quick - only 300 or so were bought.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Dach on September 12, 2011, 02:30:44 am
o really?  :o

Funny I got one on my back in the screenshot!  :wink:

As far as archery go, didn't see any problem. Thought I might have been a bit too focused on pillaging the battlefield for ammunition or other weapon as I didn't die very often.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Slantedfloors on September 12, 2011, 02:36:15 am
Best part of the Siege:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


As can be expected, the Siege Tower attack did not go well. I managed to jump off the ramp back onto the wall just as it collapsed.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Apsod on September 12, 2011, 02:58:53 am
I loved the seige, tho some guy called El_Toro supported by LLJK got me kicked when I told my team not to jump down and charge. I came back in and asked why they kicked me and they just told me that I was a bitch and my old friend archer ect. In the end they ban polled me without be saying anything else about them jumping down and I got banned.

Stuff like that just pisses me off.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Slantedfloors on September 12, 2011, 03:01:59 am
I loved the seige, tho some guy called El_Toro supported by LLJK got me kicked when I told my team not to jump down and charge. I came back in and asked why they kicked me and they just told me that I was a bitch and my old friend archer ect. In the end they ban polled me without be saying anything else about them jumping down and I got banned.
It's because you were demanding people stop doing the action that was actually winning us the battle and attempting to obstruct the movement required to do that action.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Apsod on September 12, 2011, 03:12:32 am
I was not demanding them to stop it, I was telling them that we were wasting our tickets by doing so. Did you notice that our tickets went down drastically after people started charging down?

The score was 8000-16000 at one point. In the end it was 500-1000. Which means that at one point were in the lead with 8000 and later on we were just leading with 500. That means that they were gaining on us really much and if people had started jumping down maybe 15 minutes earlier we would have lost.

I was simply trying to stop us from losing and in return I got instulted and banned.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Slantedfloors on September 12, 2011, 03:15:17 am
2 things:

1) No one wants to waste 16 hours waiting for ten archers to kill 10,000 tickets
2) It was a test battle. "Winning" doesn't actually matter.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Apsod on September 12, 2011, 03:33:43 am
1. It took us ca one hour to take down 12000 tickets, so I would presume that it would maybe take another 45 min to take down the rest 8000 instead of the 30 min it took when people charged.
2. Yes it was a test battle, and winning did not matter, but as in any game winning is kinda the goal. In pretty much any game you want to win, but you do not gain anything in some except the satisfaction of winning. Like if you are dueling someone on a duel server, winning will not give you anything, but you still want to win simply because that is the goal. If the duel last for too long you don`t give up, do you?

Anyways, if someone thinks that charging out is pointless and is against it does it really mean that you should insult him and get him banned? It made me lose the respect of LLJK, when someone have another opinion then them, they start insulting him and start a ban poll. Some player have no idea what is going on and press 1 or 2 randomly, but because a lot of people in LLJK where on they can easily manipulate the outcome to their likings.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Goretooth on September 12, 2011, 03:35:34 am
1. It took us ca one hour to take down 12000 tickets, so I would presume that it would maybe take another 45 min to take down the rest 8000 instead of the 30 min it took when people charged.
2. Yes it was a test battle, and winning did not matter, but as in any game winning is kinda the goal. In pretty much any game you want to win, but you do not gain anything in some except the satisfaction of winning. Like if you are dueling someone on a duel server, winning will not give you anything, but you still want to win simply because that is the goal. If the duel last for too long you don`t give up, do you?

Anyways, if someone thinks that charging out is pointless and is against it does it really mean that you should insult him and get him banned? It made me lose the respect of LLJK, when someone have another opinion then them, they start insulting him and start a ban poll. Some player have no idea what is going on and press 1 or 2 randomly, but because a lot of people in LLJK where on they can easily manipulate the outcome to their likings.
lol you don't know LLJK do you?
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Apsod on September 12, 2011, 03:40:02 am
I have heard about them, but I do not know much about them. I know how they act now tho.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Keshian on September 12, 2011, 03:54:47 am
Thanks for jumping down, you guys were raping us before then since you had twice as many ranged with us spawning right in front of you and with only a small section of wall to cover.  I can't tell you how many times I saw people jump downa dn instantly die from the fall.  Taking aside dumb neutral city defense strategies, it would have taken 35,000 to take this city instead of just 20500, which is fine. 

One thing - way too many bows and xbows.  Yes, you need all those bolts and arrows, but they should actually have to reuse ranged weapons and not just continually spawn and never run out.  Only reason xbows finally ran out was that every non-archer spawned with one and was shooting from the walls, which is why you shouldn't have excessive xbows, 70 ranged behind a city wall like that is nie on impossible if they actually know what they are doing as they don't need to aim very well to hit, but you need precision aiming to hit them behind the crenellations.

P.S. Just wanted to give a shot out to our top player - BIRD clan!!
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Slantedfloors on September 12, 2011, 03:59:41 am
I have heard about them, but I do not know much about them. I know how they act now tho.
That's cool. We'll add you to the list of people who opinions we don't give a shit about.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Apsod on September 12, 2011, 04:21:32 am
Like you give a shit about people that are not on your "list". I was clearly not on that "list" of yours eariler, but you still didn`t give a shit about my opinions, or actually you did. You gave me a shit storm when I opened my mouth. At least now you wont give a shit so I can open my mouth without getting banned and instulted.

You know what? I am just gonna leave this discussion. LLJK has showed me what they will do to get it their ways and how low standards they have. The ways they behave are almost identical to what you would find in most MMO`s. They are all just a bunch of trolls. Nuff said.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: SPQR on September 12, 2011, 04:45:15 am
Equipment tweaks for defender:
-Need more construction sites. Only had enough to build one thing (which was wasted on a small siege tower, who the fuck built that??), but had a ton of extra construction material.
-More pierce weapons, we had almost exclusively cut weaponry, which kinda sucked against plate
-More polearms, we ran out too soon and people started using 2handers instead, which is why 2handers ran out

Other than that the equipment was pretty good.

PS: apsod is gay
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: justjr on September 12, 2011, 04:54:04 am
My KD 32:46 LOL
I was jumping down from 10/10 till the end

That was fun!
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: PhantomZero on September 12, 2011, 09:48:40 am
We had well over 2000 swords and shields after all the 2H and Polearms had run out, as well as all the tickets.

We also had thousands of extra bolts but no crossbows. I too felt we lacked some decent piercing weapons.

Archers could probably use a nicer hat that isn't so heavy.

Some Steel Picks or Mallets are essential for good town/castle defense, but it looked like the attackers didn't have many shields anyways.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: okiN on September 12, 2011, 10:16:31 am
Defender had regular crossbow!

I think Shik gave the town a substandard amount of gold for its big population. What bow were they using?

And yeah, crossbows ran out pretty quick - only 300 or so were bought.

That's strange, for 20k tickets the AI should currently buy 2400 crossbows. Are you talking about Shik's gear or something?

-Need more construction sites. Only had enough to build one thing (which was wasted on a small siege tower, who the fuck built that??), but had a ton of extra construction material.

Hmm, the AI must not have had enough gold to buy all the sites, it should have had ten. I'll see if something can be done about that.

-More pierce weapons, we had almost exclusively cut weaponry, which kinda sucked against plate

Again:

It's not this specific, I guide the AI but it chooses the items itself based on a number of variables.
The variation is ultimately based on price range, it picks what it can afford given certain parameters. I can't directly influence the specific kinds of weapons it buys, just the number, value and class. I've added some variation by making it buy the same weapon/armour types at different amounts and prices, when previously there was only one of each item type at one price.

Anyway, I'll run my own town siege as well so that I can see it for myself. Not sure what kind of data collection Shik was doing here, haven't heard from him yet.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: PhantomZero on September 12, 2011, 12:44:37 pm
That's strange, for 20k tickets the AI should currently buy 2400 crossbows. Are you talking about Shik's gear or something?

Hmm, the AI must not have had enough gold to buy all the sites, it should have had ten. I'll see if something can be done about that.

The town did buy 10 sites, but due to scaling, only one was able to be equipped and placed. After being built it promptly sank into the ground, but I think that was because someone picked a small siege tower for whatever reason instead of the healing tent.

Also,  It is very hard for catapults so close to the town walls, it's siege tower or ladders, and most of the time the siege tower is unusable due to terrain.

When might we see a weapon rack to refill arrows bolts and thrown weapons? It will prevent archers jumping to their deaths to refill ammo, but it will probably double the amount of arrows used in sieges.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: okiN on September 12, 2011, 01:01:15 pm
Ah, I see. The scaling thing is a bit unfortunate, didn't think of that. Might have to increase the amounts bought.

Couldn't tell you when weapon racks will be in, I'm just tweaking some values here, devs do the coding.

Edit: I think I fixed the issue with siege props and scaling, just need chadz to slot in the new numbers and then we'll see in the next battle!
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: SPQR on September 12, 2011, 05:27:36 pm
I think Shik gave the town a substandard amount of gold for its big population. What bow were they using?

I think we had Tartar bows...?

Quote
That's strange, for 20k tickets the AI should currently buy 2400 crossbows. Are you talking about Shik's gear or something?

No I think we did have 2400 crossbows. The problem is absolutely everyone but archers takes a crossbow, because if you're melee your choices are:
1) Sit around fiddling your thumbs until they storm the walls
2) Grab a crossbow and hurl bolts at em

So the crossbows went really fast, with 7x or x8 scaling, we're only talking about 300ish crossbows total. That being said, our team did waste a ton of them.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Keshian on September 12, 2011, 05:48:18 pm
I think we had Tartar bows...?

No I think we did have 2400 crossbows. The problem is absolutely everyone but archers takes a crossbow, because if you're melee your choices are:
1) Sit around fiddling your thumbs until they storm the walls
2) Grab a crossbow and hurl bolts at em

So the crossbows went really fast, with 7x or x8 scaling, we're only talking about 300ish crossbows total. That being said, our team did waste a ton of them.

Thats too many xbows (over 1/10 the the number of tickets means everyone spawns even with 1 wpf and doesn't reuse properly), which with such a narrow wall to defend for cities is ridiculous.  A solid set of defenders could have killed over twice their number and not once did atatckers come close to even getting on the walls because during the first half 80% of defenders were ranged shooting down anyone who even tried to climb a ladder and by the second half, many attackers had rage quit because continuous dying in spawn due to masive ranged spam.

If you want a balance between ranged and melee fighting (where people vie back and forth trying to get a foothold on the walls) you need fewer bows/xbows so only the people with proficiency use them and reuse them.  The complaint that people got bored and started jumping down en masse is because there simply was too much ranged on defenders side (normal xbows reload fast and allowed for a continuous hailstorm around attacker's spawn that cause half of attackers to rage quit).
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Jarlek on September 12, 2011, 05:49:50 pm
I think we had Tartar bows...?

No I think we did have 2400 crossbows. The problem is absolutely everyone but archers takes a crossbow, because if you're melee your choices are:
1) Sit around fiddling your thumbs until they storm the walls
2) Grab a crossbow and hurl bolts at em


So the crossbows went really fast, with 7x or x8 scaling, we're only talking about 300ish crossbows total. That being said, our team did waste a ton of them.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. BUY ROCKS! Make something where you can get a refill of them! Throw rocks at them attackers! Also ROLLING FIRE LOGS! And POTS OF OIL!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: okiN on September 12, 2011, 06:36:56 pm
I think we had Tartar bows...?

Then normal crossbow sounds about right as well.

No I think we did have 2400 crossbows. The problem is absolutely everyone but archers takes a crossbow, because if you're melee your choices are:
1) Sit around fiddling your thumbs until they storm the walls
2) Grab a crossbow and hurl bolts at em

So the crossbows went really fast, with 7x or x8 scaling, we're only talking about 300ish crossbows total. That being said, our team did waste a ton of them.

That's really not something you can plan a budget for, though. Infantry wasting crossbows instead of leaving them for skilled users is an issue with the players, not the buy script.

Thats too many xbows (over 1/10 the the number of tickets means everyone spawns even with 1 wpf and doesn't reuse properly), which with such a narrow wall to defend for cities is ridiculous.  A solid set of defenders could have killed over twice their number and not once did atatckers come close to even getting on the walls because during the first half 80% of defenders were ranged shooting down anyone who even tried to climb a ladder and by the second half, many attackers had rage quit because continuous dying in spawn due to masive ranged spam.

If you want a balance between ranged and melee fighting (where people vie back and forth trying to get a foothold on the walls) you need fewer bows/xbows so only the people with proficiency use them and reuse them.  The complaint that people got bored and started jumping down en masse is because there simply was too much ranged on defenders side (normal xbows reload fast and allowed for a continuous hailstorm around attacker's spawn that cause half of attackers to rage quit).

Looting is something that happens when you can't afford to buy enough items, which the AI can. It doesn't make sense to plan for it and expect people to loot when you can just buy enough to last the battle. If it seems like there are too many tonight then I'll reduce them, but with the old system crossbows always ran out way too early, and that was with people looting and reusing them. It basically sounds like you want to nerf AI fiefs by not letting them buy enough ranged, which I really don't agree with. There needs to be enough items for all classes, so that everyone can play properly. Except cav, because that would be silly. :P
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 12, 2011, 06:52:37 pm
Wouldn't the percentages of buying be similar to a village battle, just with more money and tickets?

You had 20% ranged in that battle, we had 50 more ranged than needed(bows, xbows ran out). I'd say the 18% there would still be sufficient in city battles.

Also why did shik buy horsies for attackers?
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: okiN on September 12, 2011, 07:20:20 pm
It was originally 20% bows and 6% crossbows, I changed it first to 20% bows and 12% crossbows, then 16% bows and 12% crossbows after the village battle. I can, for example, take crossbows down to 10% if it looks like there are too many of them in tonight's siege.

Also, when I checked village loot, I think there were actually something like 30 bows left out of 100.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Keshian on September 12, 2011, 07:27:08 pm

Looting is something that happens when you can't afford to buy enough items, which the AI can. It doesn't make sense to plan for it and expect people to loot when you can just buy enough to last the battle. If it seems like there are too many tonight then I'll reduce them, but with the old system crossbows always ran out way too early, and that was with people looting and reusing them. It basically sounds like you want to nerf AI fiefs by not letting them buy enough ranged, which I really don't agree with. There needs to be enough items for all classes, so that everyone can play properly. Except cav, because that would be silly. :P

The only thing is that people loot in every battle to keep using better weapons, doesn't mean you should have 10,000 great mauls so you dont have to loot.  As it is now its pretty easy in city defenses to reuse ranged weapons (I've gone as many as 50 times without having to respawn with a new bow), so that on average these xbows get reused 3-4 times.  If you have 2400 xbows, thats equivalent to 7200 to 9700 tickets with xbows and then you have the same thing with bows so that you have 15,000 to 19,000 tickets out of 20,000 getting to use powerful ranged weapons (not even including throwing yet). 

It makes it a pure ranged fight instead of a more realistic, dynamic and enjoyable balance between melee and ranged where people can get to the top of the walls and then defenders can push back and forth with melee to prevent a foothold on the walls.  When you have too much of one category of items it pushes more people too use those items and unbalances the siege.  Many melee defenders got bored and jumped to the ground once they couldn't respawn with a new xbow because attackers never really got to the top of the wall to melee with them.  Better balance = both ranged and melee.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 12, 2011, 07:28:15 pm
It was originally 20% bows and 6% crossbows, I changed it first to 20% bows and 12% crossbows, then 16% bows and 12% crossbows after the village battle. I can, for example, take crossbows down to 10% if it looks like there are too many of them in tonight's siege.

Also, when I checked village loot, I think there were actually something like 30 bows left out of 100.

I believe xbows should be weighted higher. You want kill power over rate of fire. Historically, xbows were DEFENSIVE weapons. Able to kill heavy armor with minimal training. AI fiefs should do the same for cities and castles. Archers should rule villages and field battles, xbows should rule the castles and cities.

Just an opinion, mind you.

This battle also showed that town maps need some serious work. they aren't set up for crpg mechanics, but for native ones. increase spawns and perhaps make some(not all) flat portions of walls to attack?(so siege towers would be useful)
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: SPQR on September 12, 2011, 07:38:21 pm
The only thing is that people loot in every battle to keep using better weapons, doesn't mean you should have 10,000 great mauls so you dont have to loot.  As it is now its pretty easy in city defenses to reuse ranged weapons (I've gone as many as 50 times without having to respawn with a new bow), so that on average these xbows get reused 3-4 times.  If you have 2400 xbows, thats equivalent to 7200 to 9700 tickets with xbows and then you have the same thing with bows so that you have 15,000 to 19,000 tickets out of 20,000 getting to use powerful ranged weapons (not even including throwing yet). 

It makes it a pure ranged fight instead of a more realistic, dynamic and enjoyable balance between melee and ranged where people can get to the top of the walls and then defenders can push back and forth with melee to prevent a foothold on the walls.  When you have too much of one category of items it pushes more people too use those items and unbalances the siege.  Many melee defenders got bored and jumped to the ground once they couldn't respawn with a new xbow because attackers never really got to the top of the wall to melee with them.  Better balance = both ranged and melee.

I think the real problem is the attackers spawn area being so incredibly close to the wall that ranged weapons were able to fire into their spawn/siege equipment with great effect (and from multiple angles).

In normal PvP castle sieges ranged weaponry isn't that decisive even when defenders have plenty of bows/crossbows and the discipline to re-use them.

Basically, the city scenes are the real problem, crossbow and archer domination are a symptom of that.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: PhantomZero on September 13, 2011, 11:29:50 am
I think the real problem is the attackers spawn area being so incredibly close to the wall that ranged weapons were able to fire into their spawn/siege equipment with great effect (and from multiple angles).

In normal PvP castle sieges ranged weaponry isn't that decisive even when defenders have plenty of bows/crossbows and the discipline to re-use them.

Basically, the city scenes are the real problem, crossbow and archer domination are a symptom of that.

Well if the city scenes included a gate, that could open, melee could sally out and fight instead of have to jump off the walls.
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: SquishMitten on September 13, 2011, 06:45:34 pm
attackers didn't seem to be using siege shields very well, and there were few shielders and even fewer who were actually shielding their teammates
Title: Re: Shik town siege test
Post by: PhantomZero on September 14, 2011, 07:24:10 am
I noticed that too, attackers had barely any swords and boards at all, anyone coming up the ladders was just hit with arrows to death.