cRPG

cRPG => Scene Editing => Topic started by: Digglez on September 05, 2011, 06:10:44 pm

Title: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Digglez on September 05, 2011, 06:10:44 pm

So finally after 2 months of complaints we get a map rotation change.  Does the admin read any of the threads on the subject, ask long-time siege vets for advice, poll current siege players........nope.  Instead he heavy handily runs 9 native only maps.

Dude what are you thinking?  Can you please make some informed decisions since YOU NEVER PLAY SIEGE, EVER.  You actually havent helped the problem at all, in fact its possible you made it worse.  Close to half of the native only maps you put in are some of the worst balanced maps that were in the rotation.

People want a good fight, not a cakewalk or impossible odds...and you are not delivering on that.  We've seen siege #'s drop dramatically when you messed with banner balance and when you continue to run bugged maps.  You've taken the first step here towards addressing the situation which we all appreciate and want.  Please look into a better way of deciding or instituting the rotation.  As always I'll be offering my cynical veteran hardcore advice =)


SIEGE ATTACK

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/859/mb34.jpg)

I can count on 2 hands the number of times I've seen defense win.

Problems with this map
1) Outside ladders make map impossible to defend.  there is too much ground to cover and you pretty much HAVE to have someone suicide to take out the ladders.  its very difficult to hit well placed ladders and no easy way to get outside without dying.  attackers can bring ladder after ladder after ladder and defenders cant keep up because attackers are literally only 5 seconds away from the walls.

2) once the siege ramp is down, defensive archers are done for.  there is nowhere they can hide and snipe from, they're just fodder.  its a vicious cycle because once enemies get ahold of walls, the enemy archers setup and kill any opposing defender archers that spawn since they cant hide behind any cover.

3) hanging ladders.  i wouldnt know if they're against the rules or not because admins havent made any clarification to the rules.  sometimes admins do say 'dont do this' or 'illegal ladder' but nothing is ever done about it. happens every time, over and over.

I used to place these ladders myself, but seeing how easy they make the map I stopped bringing my own.  I will use one if its there but i never make them anymore.  It really trivalizes the map.

4) There is all of 1 chokepoint on this map and its not that hard to get around.  most good maps have several chokepoints that groups of defenders can actually slow or stop the flow of attackers.  Attackers can easily bypass the siege ramp by placing ladders onto the roof and then flank the defenders or just go up one of many ladders on the walls.

I'll be posting more on the other maps when time allows.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: awesomeasaurus on September 05, 2011, 06:41:10 pm

I am a Siege Attack hater. It is an awful and unbalanced map. When these sorts of scenes come into the rotation I find myself inclined to leave the server, unless I am on the winning side!

I think it is important to look to other mods or servers (EU?) for balanced siege scenes.

Because of my dismay with the past siege maps I designed my own, though I do not have the skills or desire to learn the skills to create it myself. http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,13340.0.html (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,13340.0.html) Post #6. I am willing to collaborate with scene editors to create fair and balanced siege scenes because it is my favorite game type.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Dasty on September 05, 2011, 06:42:12 pm

I was the one who changed the map rotation because Airith has been MIA for 2 weeks now. I tried to find help to sort out the rotation because I never play siege but no one wanted to help when I asked. If you want, you can help me sort the rotation out sometime this week. Just pick a time from roughly 7-10EST on Monday or Friday that you can hop into a server for an hour and go through all the maps with me.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Jacko on September 06, 2011, 11:38:15 am

Dasty, why don't you just pick up the EU rotation and work from there?

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Dasty on September 06, 2011, 03:48:28 pm

Because people play on the community siege server because we have better maps... starting from the EU rotation would make my job harder as I would need to replace more maps.

If people don't like the rotation, they should be less lazy and help me find a solution that everyone will enjoy...

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Digglez on September 06, 2011, 05:31:50 pm

Thanks for being open to suggestions Dasty.  I played siege last nite and got all the names of the maps, and honestly its not as bad as I thought.  I will work to get you a review of those maps and look thru the old ones to tell ya which I believe are well balanced.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 06, 2011, 08:21:01 pm

I'll help ya out digglez.

This is the maps that I know of and are probably best for being put back in.(if in rotation and i didn't like, i posted as such)

(click to show/hide)

FROM AIRITH'S POST ON SIEGE.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img828.imageshack.us/i/mb19j.jpg/)
#str_blank_25 Castle_Hideout
Decent Map, Still in rotation ATM.  Should stay.


visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img690.imageshack.us/i/mb21q.jpg/)
#str_blank_54 Khirin_Castle
Another Good map. Well balanced, with multiple attack avenues. Can be attacked/defended based on the teams.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img577.imageshack.us/i/mb22d.jpg/)
#str_blank_76 Tsardom_Castle
Slight weighting towards defender. 3 Avenues of standard attack, slightly more with the use of ladders. Defenders spawn way up out of the way.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img156.imageshack.us/i/mb23e.jpg/)
#str_blank_80 Holmet_Castle
Mixed Opinions. Far easier to attack than defend.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img585.imageshack.us/i/mb29a.jpg/)
Haima Castle
Mixed again. See more attacker wins than defense.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img571.imageshack.us/i/mb24z.jpg/)
#str_blank_81 Greipenfurt_Castle
Like this map,Don't know if fully balanced, but I'd say most people enjoy this.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img607.imageshack.us/i/mb30.jpg/)
Ulbas Castle
90% defender win rate. Heavily weighted for defenders. Organized defenders will almost never lose this.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img853.imageshack.us/i/mb36.jpg/)
Rhudkhan
In Rotation ATM. Slighlty more favored to attackers. Loss of Small gate is guaranteed loss. Spawns wacky for defenders.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img198.imageshack.us/i/mb40m.jpg/)
Turin
Mixed. I say better not in than in, but it's decent enough.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/mb27q.jpg/)
#str_blank_85 Citadel
In Rotation ATM. Keep it.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img35.imageshack.us/i/mb28.jpg/)
#str_blank_86 Sea_Raid
Fun, some may like it. Don't keep it.(Others may Disagree)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img839.imageshack.us/i/mb38.jpg/)
Mahdaar
Balanced. Keep map.

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 (http://img717.imageshack.us/i/mb39p.jpg/)
Jamayyed
IN Rotation ATM. Remove the map, far to weighted towards attackers.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img708.imageshack.us/i/screenrw.jpg/)
Foothold
Alright map. Holding gatehouses keeps this map balanced. Not good on small player numbers.

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 (http://img20.imageshack.us/i/mb35.jpg/)
Hailes
My most favorite map. I think one of the best balanced siege maps.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Digglez on September 06, 2011, 08:33:06 pm

I pretty much agree with your findings Anders. 

Maps to be Removed
Jamayyed.  while fun, hugely favors attackers
Ulbas.  similar to Jamayyed but in defenders favor


Maps that need to be watched closely
Both Hillfort maps
Haima
Rudkham
SeaRaid



Although balance wise prob fairly even, I think the 2 Steppe Castles & Greipenfurt should go.  They're just boring to play maps that generally kill population.

Also, what was the name of the newer map that some ppl have FPS issues on due to the torches inside the castle and green moat outside?  If the lighting was removed it would be great balanced map.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Dasty on September 07, 2011, 01:27:51 am

This info is really great, I will remove the maps that you have stated to be removed soon.

In the mean time, come up with maps that you would like to be put back into rotation that were removed.

Here is a list of whats in right now and a list of names of all of the maps we have availible.

Current:
Castle_Hideout
Forest_Attck
Siege_Attack
Holmet_Castle
Siege_Defense
Rudkhan_Castle
Citadel
Jamayyed_Castle
Hailes_Castle


Available:
Hailes_Castle
Rudkhan_Castle
Turin_Castle
Brunwud_Castle
Mahdaar_Castle
Jameyyed_Castle
Steppe_Castle
Siege_Defense
Steppe_Castle_2
Siege_Attack
City_Siege
Khirin_Castle
Helm's_Deep
Waedor_Castle
Tsardom_Castle
Holmet_Castle
Greipenfurt_Castle
River_Village
Jammadi_Castle
Phoenix_Castle
Citadel
Something
Something_2
Something_3
Winter_Castle
Castle_Rane
Tir_Asleen
Bodiam_Castle
Island_Fortress
King's_Retreat
Prison_Break
Oceanfront_Castle
Krak_des_Chevaliers
Sherwood_Lair

I have little to no idea what the names mean in terms of what the map is/looks like.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: awesomeasaurus on September 07, 2011, 01:58:24 am

I agree with Digglez's and Argoth's recommendations.

I personally would recommend these two maps to be added:

Northern Eye
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,12977.0.html (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,12977.0.html)
and
Jammadi Castle (this was present previously right?)
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2448.0.html (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2448.0.html)


With that list of available maps... Maybe make them all playable and reset the QMD/QMU votes with a server message to vote?

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Dasty on September 07, 2011, 02:20:28 am

I took out Jammadi due to it being incredibly easy to take if you use a ladder or two.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Digglez on September 07, 2011, 02:25:24 am

Quote from: Dasty on September 07, 2011, 02:20:28 am

I took out Jammadi due to it being incredibly easy to take if you use a ladder or two.

But does server have the most recent version?  What you've been running in the past is an outdated version.  Map creator has updated map thats easier on defenders.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: ICEMAN1779 on September 07, 2011, 03:05:21 am

I will post all the maps i made with names and pics tonight to help you guys figer this mess out.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Duster on September 07, 2011, 03:17:23 am

I'd like to see sea raid put back in, it is a very fun map to play, albiet a bit unbalanced.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Memento_Mori on September 07, 2011, 03:26:42 am

Quote from: Dasty on September 07, 2011, 01:27:51 am

This info is really great, I will remove the maps that you have stated to be removed soon.

In the mean time, come up with maps that you would like to be put back into rotation that were removed.

Here is a list of whats in right now and a list of names of all of the maps we have availible.

Current:
Castle_Hideout
Forest_Attck
Siege_Attack
Holmet_Castle
Siege_Defense
Rudkhan_Castle
Citadel
Jamayyed_Castle
Hailes_Castle

SIEGE ATTACK

Terrible attackers map, most defenders won't even spawn if they've been switched to defence because it is 96% of the time a loss.

(I made up a random percentage, but defenders rarely win)

objective for attackers is simply : FLOOD IN, eventually take flag, win

Defenders :  Hold flag and hold siege tower until eventually over run and lose.


This map would be "okay" if there weren't ladders that you can just throw down once off the siege tower that makes winning this map even easier.
(you have to get on the walls to break the ladders they place, the ladders are protected by a constant flood of ATTACKERS respawning (so they have full health) it's near impossible to defend.


Sorry if this was mentioned, kinda skim read the thread.

Quote from: awesomeasaurus on September 07, 2011, 01:58:24 am

I agree with Digglez's and Argoth's recommendations.

I personally would recommend these two maps to be added:

Northern Eye
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,12977.0.html (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,12977.0.html)
and
Jammadi Castle (this was present previously right?)
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2448.0.html (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2448.0.html)


With that list of available maps... Maybe make them all playable and reset the QMD/QMU votes with a server message to vote?

Jammadi Castle is hard to defend, and very easy to attack I would suggest keeping this map outta here unless they can make a way up to the circle walls defending the flag, since thats where attackers will ladder and defenders have to run through the constant flood of respawning attackers to break them.

(all the attackers need to do is break the gate and start the constant flood of ladders and full health attackers, also easily taken in the first 30 seconds to 1 minute due to how huge the map is. Takes forever for defenders to make it to the flag if they don't spawn right next to it.)

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 07, 2011, 03:32:14 am

Can you not check the QMU/QMD logs? I think that'll give a good indication as well!

@Awesome: Argoth? REALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wtf....how the Hell did you mix us up?

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: awesomeasaurus on September 07, 2011, 04:22:10 am

On EU, I believe, I saw Jammadi played with scaffolds on the inside of the circle which defenders coudl get up on. Though the attackers can also use those to get down safely.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: ICEMAN1779 on September 07, 2011, 04:44:52 am

Small mappack for CRPG NA Siege. Not AI tested! Cheers!

Bodiam Castle Last Updated: Jun 28, 2011, 10:57:42 pm
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/mb1br.jpg/
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/96/mb2py.jpg/
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/30/mb3i.jpg/
 Updated. Fixed the siege tower, Added some textures, Fixed a door that would brake upsidedown, Fix a door that would not work at all sometimes buged, Fixed a hole that you could get stuck in by the siege ramp, fixed the man made wood ramp so its much easer to walk on.         >>>>>I would be glad to fix the FPS for this map<<<<<<<<9/6/2011
 
Tir Asleen Last Updated: Jun 28, 2011, 10:57:42 pm
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/912d.jpg/
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/86371985.jpg/
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/232/911rz.jpg/
 Updated. Removed a staircase inside the castle, Added five doors, Added 4 pillers near the winch for the gate, Moved all defenders entry points.
 
Tintagel Last Updated: Jun 28, 2011, 10:57:42 pm
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/3/24493422.jpg/
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/26790238.jpg/
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/910k.jpg/
 Updated. All defenders now spawn inside the castle, Fixed the long staircase. You can now move up and down it much faster, Fixed a bug where a defender would spawn in the middel of nowhere.
 
Nockmaar Last Updated: Jun 28, 2011, 10:57:42 pm
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/194/mb4z.jpg/
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/90/914t.jpg/
 http://imageshack.us/f/847/mb1u.jpg/
 Updated. Heavy edit inside of the tower. Stairs are fixed, The Stairs have been greatly upsized, All new rooms, Added 3 doors, Moved all defenders entry points, Moved attackers ladder, Added some miner props.
 
Champion Haven Last Updated: Jun 15, 2011, 11:22:53 pm
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/217/fgdh3.jpg/
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/fgdh1.jpg/
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/219/fgdh2.jpg/
 No update...
 
Goodrich Castle Last Updated: Jun 11, 2011, 12:27:17 am
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/198/mb11n.jpg/
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/194/mb13p.jpg/
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/mb14a.jpg/
 Updated. Deleted a ladder, Moved some defenders entry pionts, Fixed the two doors for the gatehouse..>>>>>>>> This update never got appaled!<<<<<<<<9/6/2011
 
My scene 17 Last Updated: May 31, 2011, 01:15:34 am
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/mb9o.jpg/
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/848/mb8v.jpg/
 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/mb7u.jpg/
 No update...
 
Im not shur what maps have been removed besides Champion Haven. That map was for fun. Airith was sometimes impossible to get a message from him. and would remove maps after a update was made :/ Some updates i told him about didnot get dun evan after like a month or so. So i stoped making updates and had no clue to what maps where still up on the server becouse he would never update the server rotation. Not long after that i stoped making the maps untill something was dun sadly. I no im not a expert at map maken. But you must understand that making a balanced map is very difficult. And i have no problem making a patch. But it must be applyed to the server.... I did however make two more maps. but i never uploaded them for the fact that Airith was impossible to get a message from and too him.

Winewic_Castle
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/38/mb1ye.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/707/mb2s.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/mb3h.jpg/

Bertreford_Keep
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/mb1h.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/mb2ld.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/mb3eo.jpg/

When and if this mess is fixed. I shall submit these two maps

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Rangerbob on September 07, 2011, 09:26:27 am

What happened to the other native sand maps?  They were pretty fair.  The one with the siege tower and the other one which is almost an open plains after the outer wall.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Digglez on September 07, 2011, 06:00:26 pm

Quote from: Rangerbob on September 07, 2011, 09:26:27 am

What happened to the other native sand maps?  They were pretty fair.  The one with the siege tower and the other one which is almost an open plains after the outer wall.

Those are Steppe maps, not desert.  And the overall population hates those maps, they kill population.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: ICEMAN1779 on September 08, 2011, 11:22:42 pm

Will a new rotation be posted? And if so. When? Will thay have the name of map/pic/and what blank it is? Allso hoo do we submit maps to? Hoo is incharge now? Do we still go by airiths guidlines?

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: awesomeasaurus on September 09, 2011, 07:54:00 pm

Quote from: Lt_Anders on September 07, 2011, 03:32:14 am

Can you not check the QMU/QMD logs? I think that'll give a good indication as well!

@Awesome: Argoth? REALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wtf....how the Hell did you mix us up?

My most sincere apologies. You are nothing like Argoth. lol

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: awesomeasaurus on September 13, 2011, 05:37:53 am

So.... I've been MIA for a couple days. What is going on here(Siege server)?

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: ICEMAN1779 on September 13, 2011, 08:20:58 pm

Dont no. Its been a weak... Still no ancer. The eu servers seem to have it all together. Na servers... Its like...  Blaaa!  Lol its like somebody crapped all over the na siege forums. Nothing is in order. Or up to date. Its everywhere and or nowhere. Im not trying to be rude. But its funny sometimes. ;) and shouldnot be.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Digglez on September 14, 2011, 08:33:07 am

Dasty

MAPS TO BE REMOVED IMMEDIATELY
Siege Attack
Ulbas
Jameyyed


While a complete overhaul is nice, so its knocking stuff out quickly that we all agree on.  Moving in small pieces so community can give feedback.


Iceman, noone knows who you are or what you are talking about.  You're not really contributing to our thread here.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: ICEMAN1779 on September 14, 2011, 10:37:32 am

Quote from: Digglez on September 14, 2011, 08:33:07 am

Dasty

MAPS TO BE REMOVED IMMEDIATELY
Siege Attack
Ulbas
Jameyyed


While a complete overhaul is nice, so its knocking stuff out quickly that we all agree on.  Moving in small pieces so community can give feedback.


Iceman, noone knows who you are or what you are talking about.  You're not really contributing to our thread here.

Make shure you read all the posts Digglez. I make maps. You just figger that out? For the server? Ya no? lol.  Im still wating for the mess to get fixed. Pluss you don't need to no me. And yes remove Siege Attack. Played it lastnight. Droped the server to like 30+ players. All i need is a new/UPDATED/map names/blank/pics of map.    !NEW>>>Rotation<<<NEW!
     I have everything on hold untill then. I don't want to make a patch for a map thats has been removed. Or going to be removed. I dont  play much anymore anyway. To much droma ingame. love making maps tho.  :wink:

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Digglez on September 14, 2011, 07:37:09 pm

Forest Attack, while a promising map has a gaping hole in it right now.  Medium ladders can be put on the front archer deck and attackers can walk thru the archer spots and drop down to the flag (without losing health) in about 10 seconds.  The archer slits need to be closed up or barred so people can move thru them, as this is trivializing attacking this castle.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: awesomeasaurus on September 17, 2011, 03:41:42 pm

 :idea:Can siege attack be removed already? Thanks!

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: zagibu on September 17, 2011, 07:11:07 pm

Quote from: Digglez on September 14, 2011, 07:37:09 pm

Forest Attack, while a promising map has a gaping hole in it right now.  Medium ladders can be put on the front archer deck and attackers can walk thru the archer spots and drop down to the flag (without losing health) in about 10 seconds.  The archer slits need to be closed up or barred so people can move thru them, as this is trivializing attacking this castle.

In the newest version, all except one window are barred up. The newest version has been up some months.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Camaris on September 18, 2011, 01:34:12 pm

Quote from: Digglez on September 14, 2011, 07:37:09 pm

Forest Attack, while a promising map has a gaping hole in it right now.  Medium ladders can be put on the front archer deck and attackers can walk thru the archer spots and drop down to the flag (without losing health) in about 10 seconds.  The archer slits need to be closed up or barred so people can move thru them, as this is trivializing attacking this castle.

If you are talking about that one window that isnt closed at the front side... its a common tactic on eu to use it and defenders
are aware of this. You just have to defend that area too.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: awesomeasaurus on September 18, 2011, 06:30:11 pm

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Camaris on September 18, 2011, 01:34:12 pm

If you are talking about that one window that isnt closed at the front side... its a common tactic on eu to use it and defenders
are aware of this. You just have to defend that area too.

On NA, we have a version of the scene where all the windows are open unfortunately.

Title: Re: NA comm. siege rotation: seriously
Post by: Camaris on September 19, 2011, 12:00:13 pm

Then admins should just update the map ;) Its true that this is a bit to much and thats why cohen changed it in the last version.