cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Christo on August 26, 2011, 03:17:01 am

Title: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Christo on August 26, 2011, 03:17:01 am: Alrighty, so I masterworked my weapon. Time to go from 18/18 to something else, I feel kinda underpowered damage-wise.

I'm still in leveling progress, so I've been thinking. Which build would benefit me the most? But I can't really decide.

Here are the two builds, I'll try to list some pro-s and cons to each.

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 24
Agility: 15
Hit points: 69
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 5
Power Strike: 8
Shield: 0
Athletics: 5
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 147
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

The obvious pro would be the 8 Power Strike, I mean, whoa. It would deal 16% more damage than my 6PS build.
Also, those extra hit points are lovely. Thing is that the ATH might be not enough, but I'll go back to this later.

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 21
Agility: 18
Hit points: 64
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 4
Power Strike: 7
Shield: 0
Athletics: 6
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 6
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 155
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

So, the obvious pro here is that I'd get the 6ATH what I'm used to, but I'd only get 7PS.

What do you think, which would be better for a player who uses the Elegant? Yeah sure, 8PS kicks ass, but is the loss of one ATH acceptable with a short weapon like that?

Also, it would be handy to know how much speedbonus or whatever I'd get with that extra ATH.

-
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: rustyspoon on August 26, 2011, 04:50:28 am: Honestly the differences between those are so slight it doesn't matter too much. 5 athletics is more than enough for pretty much anything. That being said, I prefer 6 on my polearm build 'cause it makes it easier to keep people at my axe's sweet spot.

With 8 ps you're doing like an extra 3 points of damage per swing. Since the elegant is the weakest poleaxe, perhaps you need that extra damage? You also don't need 6 WM unless you're wearing black plate or something.
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Christo on August 26, 2011, 05:04:31 am: Hmm.

You are so right.. my Elegant is the weakest of the Poleaxes, yet it's the most expensive Polearm in the game.

Uber WTF, I'd love to see a buff on this weapon, or a lower price.

Build wise, you say that differences aren't that much, but it still does make a difference having that extra ath. Hmm.

I might try both builds sometime. Then go with the one I prefer. That's the simplest imo.

But keep the info coming, it never hurts. :3
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: espooo on August 26, 2011, 05:35:41 am: Go for the 21/18.
I honestly prefer the faster swing. Also, since you are using the Elegant Poleaxe, more WPF in your weapon will provide you with a chance to chain polestun.
Also, I can keep up with some archers. :)
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Cepeshi on August 26, 2011, 05:58:52 am: 5athl is cool, 6 athl is even cooler, some archers have that aswell, so you might actually be able to chase em :)

Anyways, 24/15 or 21/18 gives like one hit difference in order to kill, and with more athl you can achieve higher speedbonus, hence higher dmg aswell. Was sporting 24/15 for quite some time, was awesome, good survivability, decent speed and nice damage. Last gen i went 21/18, dmg comparable, higher athletics help in cav dodging and stuff, and i doubt i will go something else in any close time :)
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Nehvar on August 26, 2011, 11:37:19 am: I've done 18/21, 21/18 and 24/15 builds on my two-hander and I have to say I like the 24/15 build the least. Too damn slow for my short weapons and I often find myself at the mercy of enemy cavalry. If 21/18 or 24/15 are your options then I recommend 21/18.
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: v/onMega on August 26, 2011, 12:22:22 pm: Balanced builds are the way to go, mostly.

You have no crushthrough weapon.
Elegant does okay damage.
You sport heavy armor from what I know.

In your case 21/18 might be the ideal build (simply nothing wrong with it)

About the dmg.
I play 15 / 24 this gen.
Got heraldic tabard / plate mittens on lordly + mw dgs.
Survivability is awesome due to new soak values + i teach myself again to hit the opponents heads whenever its possible... ;-) (i miss my 21/21 lvl 33 though xD)

The right build is something that mostly happens in your head ;-)
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: rustyspoon on August 26, 2011, 02:02:30 pm: One thing about speed bonus though; it's not going to be that great wearing armor that heavy even with 6 athletics. My killing power improved tremendously when I dropped my armor weight. You also don't need as much WM then. I only use 3 WM on my polearm guy and wearing medium and a 90 speed weapon I never get outspammed. I can still also chainstun by circling around slow opponents.

WPF just doesn't do much for swing speed as shown in this chart I stole from Walt:

(click to show/hide)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

So the difference between 130 WPF and 150 is like 0.01 seconds per swing. You only need high WPF if you are an archer, a hybrid or you wear heavy armor. Also, I've been successfully dueling people with 130 wpf and the long maul (70 speed) so again, WPF isn't that important.

This also depends a lot on how you play. With the changes to cut damage, I find overheads to be the most efficient way to kill people. So, if you follow around the main group, wait for them to engage someone and then overhead, they usually don't last more than 2.
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Leshma on August 26, 2011, 02:04:58 pm: 21/18

You'll move fast enough with 24/15 but swing speed is kinda slow.
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Vibe on August 26, 2011, 02:06:00 pm: Quote from: Leshma on August 26, 2011, 02:04:58 pm
21/18

You'll move fast enough with 24/15 but swing speed is kinda slow.

Eh no, it isn't.
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Leshma on August 26, 2011, 02:10:37 pm: Well it was okay but I prefer more agi. Maybe it's best for him to go 21/18 or 18/21, use Bec or some Pike which will make killing a lot easier task.
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: v/onMega on August 26, 2011, 02:26:49 pm: What I do feel with higher wpf is u can block really really late + i cant get rid of the feeling my weapon connects earlier.

Being able to move faster is a huge plus in battle when u like a sneaky playstyle.

Swingspeed itself, no effect.
Transition from blocking, feinting and initializing an attack, yes.

Vibe stop talking. You could play with 9 agi, u is a good manual blocker :-)
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Vibe on August 26, 2011, 02:35:25 pm: Quote from: v/onMega on August 26, 2011, 02:26:49 pm
Vibe stop talking. You could play with 9 agi, u is a good manual blocker :-)

I'm quite rusty these days, busy causing drama on other games :D

What I did notice though is that I'm more successful with blocking on faster weapons, for example with Staff. Although I don't think WPF plays a huge role after the first 100 points, to be honest.
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Leshma on August 26, 2011, 03:41:59 pm: Well it's true that faster weapons have bigger advantage than any amount of weapon wpf or agi.

For example, you can have 24 agi, 172 wpf and Danish and you'll still swing/block/feint slower than you would do if you used Longsword with 12 agi/140 wpf.
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: SixThumbs on August 27, 2011, 04:03:11 am: I'm rolling 25/15 right now with 3 athletics and I don't usually have a problem.

For the damage, and this analogy might not make sense, I think of it like I did as a kid playing turn-based rpgs back in the day. Would you want to kill the enemy in three swings reliably or have the chance to do it in two at a sacrifice for some speed/other abilities?
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Prpavi on August 27, 2011, 01:14:00 pm: well after the new soak damages i decided to go from 24/15 (used to play 2h but i hate it now) to 18/21 playing with mighty elegant as you or long spear.

im finding the high wpf speed bonus and facy footwork with 7 ATH to work much better for me than 2 extra PS.

but if you want power go for 24/15 1 ps extra from your current build in 21/18 wont mean that much i guess especially with the cut damage. i decided to try to outspam rather than outhit ppl with 7ATH 7 WM.

hope this hepled a bit.

cheers :mrgreen:
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Vibe on August 29, 2011, 10:01:40 am: Quote from: Prpavi on August 27, 2011, 01:14:00 pm
well after the new soak damages i decided to go from 24/15 (used to play 2h but i hate it now) to 18/21 playing with mighty elegant as you or long spear.

im finding the high wpf speed bonus and facy footwork with 7 ATH to work much better for me than 2 extra PS.

but if you want power go for 24/15 1 ps extra from your current build in 21/18 wont mean that much i guess especially with the cut damage. i decided to try to outspam rather than outhit ppl with 7ATH 7 WM.

hope this hepled a bit.

cheers :mrgreen:

Agree here. Tried a STF char 18/21 yesterday and it was wicked. It depends less on power strike and more on movement and speed bonus. I even managed to 2hit coat of plates a few times due to speed bonus (38c weapon).

Speed bonus is just badass (now if there was only a way to display the speed bonus percentage like in native tutorial...).
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: B3RS3RK on August 29, 2011, 12:28:46 pm: 21/18, no doubt.

6 Athletics are necessary imo, you can do great footwork with that.
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Smoothrich on September 03, 2011, 12:57:40 pm: If you want to exclusively backpedal with polearms, which is the EU metagame, go 18/21 and enjoy getting one shotted by any decent NA player. If you want a good build, do 24/15 with maxed iron flesh and power strike, and 0 weapon master. 5 athletics is more then enough to completely dominate people if you are remotely good at blocking, holding attacks, footwork, etc. You'll have nearly double the HP of the 18/21 builds that max weapon master and all of that dumb stuff. Maybe high agility is better for dueling (not really) but you are just so gimping your build if you dont max ironflesh and powerstrike and have as much of it as you can for battle and strat. An NA player that gets some of the highest kills in Strategus matches, Allers, literally has 3 agility. He rips these coordinated EU teams apart regardless.
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: RandomDude on September 03, 2011, 05:22:08 pm: Quote from: Prpavi on August 27, 2011, 01:14:00 pm
well after the new soak damages i decided to go from 24/15 (used to play 2h but i hate it now) to 18/21 playing with mighty elegant as you or long spear.

im finding the high wpf speed bonus and facy footwork with 7 ATH to work much better for me than 2 extra PS.

but if you want power go for 24/15 1 ps extra from your current build in 21/18 wont mean that much i guess especially with the cut damage. i decided to try to outspam rather than outhit ppl with 7ATH 7 WM.

hope this hepled a bit.

cheers :mrgreen:

I seen you using flamberge prpavi. 18/21 was my last build and i liked it a lot more than my current 24/15. I miss the extra 2 athletics cos it really helps when it's 1 vs many and I tend to end up in those kind of fights - probably because I fight better and enjoy it more in those situations but the 5 athletics just doesnt seem to be enough. I cant catch most archers either.

I dunno when smoothrich plays on EU but I dont see that many polearms in comparison to other styles. There's a lot of pikes for sure but some 2h use them as well as polearm users.

The way I see it, with a flamberge if you cant 1 hit people with 8 ps then you can still 2 hit most of them with 6/7. The higher athletics will help you survive for longer using footwork or even just being able to run away and outrun players.

Also for those peeps who like to wear full plate, its a godsend to have higher athletics. So many times i see millanese + armets on na who move like a snail and it might take me 4 hits to kill them but i can circle them so easily that it's no problem.
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: awesomeasaurus on September 03, 2011, 05:40:04 pm: 1 athletics all day bro. save yourself the points.
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Prpavi on September 03, 2011, 05:54:57 pm: Quote from: RandomDude on September 03, 2011, 05:22:08 pm
I seen you using flamberge prpavi. 18/21 was my last build and i liked it a lot more than my current 24/15. I miss the extra 2 athletics cos it really helps when it's 1 vs many and I tend to end up in those kind of fights - probably because I fight better and enjoy it more in those situations but the 5 athletics just doesnt seem to be enough. I cant catch most archers either.

I dunno when smoothrich plays on EU but I dont see that many polearms in comparison to other styles. There's a lot of pikes for sure but some 2h use them as well as polearm users.

The way I see it, with a flamberge if you cant 1 hit people with 8 ps then you can still 2 hit most of them with 6/7. The higher athletics will help you survive for longer using footwork or even just being able to run away and outrun players.

Also for those peeps who like to wear full plate, its a godsend to have higher athletics. So many times i see millanese + armets on na who move like a snail and it might take me 4 hits to kill them but i can circle them so easily that it's no problem.

actually this is my new gen.

i played polearm 18/21 before it and its fucking broken man. long spear needs to be fixed soon.

the current Flamberge wielding gen in 27/12, not that slow cuz im in kuyak.

i stopped usng flam, using regular danish now just got bored.

btw. with 9ps i still dont one shot ppl with danish, 2h is awfull now.
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Osiris on September 07, 2011, 05:12:43 am: i went 21-18 with an elegant poleaxe :P its a sweet sweet build :D
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: RandomDude on September 07, 2011, 01:46:48 pm: im trying some weird build now ill either have 20 str 6 if 6 ps 21 agi and 7 athletics or 18 str 6 if 6ps, 21 agi 7 athletics and 4 spare points for either wm or riding possibly

if you cant sheathe flam then i imagine i cant ride a horse with it either

if i was gonna use a sheathable sword then id rather put pts into shield and take a board shield again
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Siiem on September 07, 2011, 02:38:57 pm: Quote from: awesomeasaurus on September 03, 2011, 05:40:04 pm
1 athletics all day bro. save yourself the points.

Ahmurican?
Title: Re: 24/15 vs 21/18? Can't choose.
Post by: Corwin on September 07, 2011, 02:55:25 pm: I am a man of extremes, and after 24/18 lvl 32 build, now I am going for 18/24 30lvl build. Only around 130 wpf and low hp, but I tried it on stf and it is very fun build which can dodge both horses and arrows and bring both confusion and destruction in enemy ranks. I am 2hander, btw, not polearmer.