cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: _Sebastian_ on August 07, 2011, 09:44:39 pm

Title: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: _Sebastian_ on August 07, 2011, 09:44:39 pm
Hi all.

I'm actually playing one generation as STR-Archer and im confused about PD in crpg.
The damage is the only good thing about PD, the rest is worse.

- PD decreases the accuracy of your bow
- PD decreases the draw-speed of your bow
- PD also decreases the draw-time of you bow

But this all happens only if PD is over 5.
PD under 6 increases all these things.

So I made a test about Power Draw and took screens from the crosshairs of each setting .
I tested the short bow with 1PD, 5PD and 10PD.
I also tested the long bow with 6PD and 10PD.
For both bows I used 138 wpf in archery.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


As you can see...
5PD increases the accuracy of the short-bow a lot, but 10PD decreases it again.
The long-bow doesn't get any bonus (without damage) from PD.
PD decreases the accuracy, speed-rate and draw-time.

I dont understand why the developers changed PD this way.
Especially the high end bows are needing a bonus from PD,
because they are inaccurate and slow as hell.

Power Draw should increases the accuracy, draw-speed and draw-time of all bows :!:
It is totally unrealistic, if it stays the way it is.


By the way...
I think the draw-time of all bows should be raised a lot
The 0,5 sec window in which the crosshair is accurate is way to less.

I'm a real archer and I made my own 90 pounds english-warbow and arrows...
and im able to draw the bow for 15 sec and then I'm aways able to shot accurate.
So I know what I'm talking about :wink:

Sorry if my english is not perfect...



Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Gorath on August 07, 2011, 09:46:44 pm
Anything to make the game even more like an FPS and less like a completely original melee combat game.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: _Sebastian_ on August 07, 2011, 09:56:46 pm
Anything to make the game even more like an FPS and less like a completely original melee combat game.   :rolleyes:
What is a medieval battle without bows and xbows ?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Starfucker on August 07, 2011, 10:39:34 pm
Power Draw should increases the accuracy, draw-speed and draw-time of all bows :!:

Yes, lets have one skill that improves every aspect of archery. No one should have to put any thought into their build. Why choose between damage and accuracy when you should have both?
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Gorath on August 07, 2011, 10:49:31 pm
What is a medieval battle without bows and xbows ?
(click to show/hide)

I dunno, something different than the 100000's of other FPS's out there where everyone just shoots at each other in ranged combat?
But no, instead we'll just have medieval counter-strike.
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Joxer on August 07, 2011, 11:49:59 pm
"...original melee combat game..."  :lol:
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: _Sebastian_ on August 08, 2011, 12:29:39 am
Yes, lets have one skill that improves every aspect of archery. No one should have to put any thought into their build. Why choose between damage and accuracy when you should have both?
PD increases accuracy, but only up to PD5.
It's unfair...
The lower bows are getting an accuracy bonus from PD, but they are accurate enough without it.
PD on stronger bows decrease the accuracy, but these bows are needing more accuracy, not less.

I dunno, something different than the 100000's of other FPS's out there where everyone just shoots at each other in ranged combat?
But no, instead we'll just have medieval counter-strike.

There a maybe 15% archer mains... I dont think, that the rest will change to an archer, when Power Draw is fixed and works correctly.


Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Konrax on August 08, 2011, 01:08:55 am
You must be a big person to hold a 90 pound draw strength bow for 15 seconds.

Not to doubt you or anything but that is difficult to do even for experienced archers who do meet the physical requirements to pull such a bow.

I agree with what you said, if anything the draw time should be less, the aim should dissipate over a longer time, all within a limit of 4 or 5 points above the bow requirement.

Since its realistic to assume you can really physically only pull a bow string so far without damaging the bow or over extending the arrow off your hand.
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 08, 2011, 01:29:47 am
The higher the PD the:
More damage you get (14% bonus, PD max damage bonus equal to your requirement for the bow +4)
Longer the reticule holds before expanding.
The longer the arrow travels before slowing down.

Seems a good balance to me considering all the bad stuff. The damage bonus alone is nice, considering PT only gives 10% per and PS only 8%.
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: _Sebastian_ on August 08, 2011, 01:38:55 am
Longer the reticule holds before expanding.

No. PD over 5 lowers it.
Please read my first post.
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Wraist on August 08, 2011, 02:07:37 am
I believe it was Paul, who said that the maximum benefit PD gives is difficulty+4 [unless I misread].

Think about it from a logical perspective:
1. You're a weakling, so you can't pull back a bow very far.
2. You gain strength and could pull it back further. What this does, is increase the initial velocity of the arrow, which increases the accuracy [as it goes to the target faster, and this is assuming no funny business such as a one time small area force]
3. You are now strong enough to use the bow at maximum efficiency; there is very little benefit to pull the string [forgive me if that's not the correct term] back further. However you can now use another bow albeit at a lower efficiency.

At point three, if the reticule size increase, this is just a conjecture [I'm not an expert in bows or biology], if you increase the spring constant, to get the same force, you have to decrease the compression/elongation of the spring, and thus your arms would be in different positions and maybe that's uncomfortable]. If it decreases, then that doesn't really make sense [unless you were using the other bow for way too long], and if it remains the same, then that could be due to the fact that you're just applying the same force as you did with the other bow.

As for decreasing the accuracy, increase in draw time and speed rate [I'm unsure what this means], again, think of it logically.

1. You're starting to get used to your bow so you're moderatly accurate with it
2. You're using the bow at maximum efficiency, you can't be more accurate
3. You're pulling the bow too far back, which could result in many things.
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: ReLeNtLeSs on August 09, 2011, 03:13:07 am
Anything to make the game even more like an FPS and less like a completely original melee combat game.   :rolleyes:

I'm beginning to think you've never played an FPS, because archery in c-rpg is NOTHING like any FPS I've ever played.

Shoot bow.
Make lunch.
Run to the store.
Learn a foreign language.
Come back just in time to find your target realized his shoe was untied and ducked the arrow.
Rage.
Repeat.
 
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: _Sebastian_ on August 10, 2011, 01:51:33 pm
Seems a good balance to me considering all the bad stuff.

The "bad stuff" is the problem...
what would you think, if this happens to Power Strike ?

PS would slow down your swings,
lower the accuracy of your hits
and it would lower your swing-hold time.

Would you invest any points into PS :?:




Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Hirlok on August 10, 2011, 02:05:35 pm
I'm beginning to think you've never played an FPS, because archery in c-rpg is NOTHING like any FPS I've ever played.

Shoot bow.
Make lunch.
Run to the store.
Learn a foreign language.
Come back just in time to find your target realized his shoe was untied and ducked the arrow.
Rage.
Repeat.

Heeheeeee, made my day. SO true and one of the reasons I am not playing much atm.  And don't forget the point before "Rage." - "Team buddies already killed the target while it was busy with his shoes and stand in his place when your arrow finally arrives..." - "Fucking my old friendcher watch your aim!!!!!"
Last patch fucked up missile speed for bows AGAIN after it had been more or less ok for a short period of time.

But back to PD: I noticed the same and it totally spoiled the fun playing a STR archer. I used to be PD 9 or 10, right now I play PD7 since anything higher totally screws you.

And
Quote
PS would slow down your swings,
lower the accuracy of your hits
and it would lower your swing-hold time.
well actually that would make sense - the meat mountain swiiiinging his 500 pound mallet or poleace and crushing everything would be and should be kinda slow motion. But of course this is a highly unrealistic melee FPS, and we ranged scum have to be happy we are tolerated sometimes on some servers... ;-)
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Camaris on August 10, 2011, 03:51:59 pm
Heeheeeee, made my day. SO true and one of the reasons I am not playing much atm.  And don't forget the point before "Rage." - "Team buddies already killed the target while it was busy with his shoes and stand in his place when your arrow finally arrives..." - "Fucking friendly archer watch your aim!!!!!"
Last patch fucked up missile speed for bows AGAIN after it had been more or less ok for a short period of time.

But back to PD: I noticed the same and it totally spoiled the fun playing a STR archer. I used to be PD 9 or 10, right now I play PD7 since anything higher totally screws you.

And well actually that would make sense - the meat mountain swiiiinging his 500 pound mallet or poleace and crushing everything would be and should be kinda slow motion. But of course this is a highly unrealistic melee FPS, and we ranged scum have to be happy we are tolerated sometimes on some servers... ;-)

tbh i dont know if wolves_nelo told his true build but it seems 6pd are more then enough.
I have 21 str (ok no if) and 60+ armor everywhere and he always could kill me with 2 shots of his longbow.
So if you heirloom bow +3 and arrows +3 you gonna really rock and dont seem to need more pd cause your damage is ridicolous.
=> no need to discuss about more pd ;)
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 10, 2011, 03:58:25 pm
They Nerfed Bows because they were Op...they nerfed them again cuz ppl was starting to get used to the nerf and made other builds that made them accurate and "OP" once again! Then they nerfed theyre speed, animation, dmg +++ and now its boring to play as a archer :(
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Gorath on August 10, 2011, 04:54:47 pm
I'm beginning to think you've never played an FPS, because archery in c-rpg is NOTHING like any FPS I've ever played.

Shoot bow.
Make lunch.
Run to the store.
Learn a foreign language.
Come back just in time to find your target realized his shoe was untied and ducked the arrow.
Rage.
Repeat.

For a fallen you sure seem to be doing it wrong.  Cut the bullshit about archers, I have one just for lulz and to go trolling on because it's easy.  Perforated_Prostate.  Used to be Moneyshot.  I've always had an archer alt to go be a fucktard on when I'm feeling lazy and don't want to put effort into melee.  Hell, I run naked with a horn bow and barbed arrows and a damned practice sword and still come out positive on the kdr side.

The other fallen seem to have no problem with archery AT ALL, so maybe you should stop skipping those clan meetings and train with them to see what you're doing wrong.  Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Nelo on August 13, 2011, 06:56:13 pm
tbh i dont know if wolves_nelo told his true build but it seems 6pd are more then enough.
I have 21 str (ok no if) and 60+ armor everywhere and he always could kill me with 2 shots of his longbow.
So if you heirloom bow +3 and arrows +3 you gonna really rock and dont seem to need more pd cause your damage is ridicolous.
=> no need to discuss about more pd ;)

I always tell the truth :D
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: ShinySpoons on August 15, 2011, 06:24:59 am
So I finished my test, and these are my findings (for PD5-8 and 150 Archery unless otherwise noted):

• Power Draw decreased my accuracy for all bows, and the more Power Draw I had, the less accurate I was.
• Power Draw also decreased my arrows per minute for each point allocated (except for a particular case, see below).
• WPF increases the hold time of your reticle by increasing your draw speed (giving you more time before your reticle starts to become inaccurate); comparing 6PD 170WPF & 8PD 150 WPF, the lower PD and higher WPF character was able to hold the reticle longer (by a noted amount).

If you want to be accurate, be able to hold your reticle, and draw a bit faster; go with less PD and more WPF.
If you want to be hard-hitting, and have faster arrow flight; go with more PD.
Beyond that, I can't recommend anything. I can post any other bow screenshots upon request.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Askorti on August 16, 2011, 03:53:44 pm
Wait, what? So a stronger person, who is more used to drawing a bow have... lower speed and accuracy than some weakling who just started to do archery? Yeah, that sounds soo logical... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Mtemtko on August 16, 2011, 04:12:41 pm
Wait, what? So a stronger person, who is more used to drawing a bow have... lower speed and accuracy than some weakling who just started to do archery? Yeah, that sounds soo logical... :rolleyes:
And what? You going to balance the game with "realism"?
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 16, 2011, 04:14:53 pm
And what? You going to balance the game with "realism"?

Well, they did rebalance bows with the realism card, so anything goes now!
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Mtemtko on August 16, 2011, 04:23:54 pm
Well, they did rebalance bows with the realism card, so anything goes now!

Okay sure then :

Archers get reduced arrow speed everytime they shoot due to fatigue, after twenty arrows the drawing speed is reduced by 50%.
Mail armor with padded jacks users are immune to arrows. (body, not face)
Tincans are completely immune to arrows except weakspots like under armpits/ eye slits on helmet.

You sure you wanna get into realism?
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 16, 2011, 04:29:47 pm
Okay sure then :

Archers get reduced arrow speed everytime they shoot due to fatigue, after twenty arrows the drawing speed is reduced by 50%.
Mail armor with padded jacks users are immune to arrows. (body, not face)
Tincans are completely immune to arrows except weakspots like under armpits/ eye slits on helmet.

You sure you wanna get into realism?

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,13534.0.html

Sure, because after three or five months of that, if we also extended it to eveyrhting else (including melee) then people would actually realize how much realism sucks and the forum would see 80% less siuggestions having to do with it. I want to see Gothic Plate be as tough as Gothic plate really is (and more expensive), let people have something new to complain about as they see what "real" armour does to silly little side swords.

It would also be hilarious to see full speed "horse bumps" one-shot people like they did historically.

Though mail with padded jack would still have small amounts of damage inflicted to the user if using bodkins and a powerful bow. Transitional armour and up though would be immune certainly, perhaps literally 1 point of damage at best to represent the "buffeting."
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Askorti on August 16, 2011, 04:49:51 pm
Okay sure then :

Archers get reduced arrow speed everytime they shoot due to fatigue, after twenty arrows the drawing speed is reduced by 50%.
Mail armor with padded jacks users are immune to arrows. (body, not face)
Tincans are completely immune to arrows except weakspots like under armpits/ eye slits on helmet.

You sure you wanna get into realism?
I said logic, not realism. Situation, where stronger person is actually weaker (he cant stay still with his bow) is not logical. Bow being able to pierce through plate is logical, but unrealistic, so it's not as bad as mentioned by Me situation.
Also, if you'd want to have realism on this level, then running, jumping, slashing should make you tired over time, cheap horses should have own AI and NEVER charge at a soldier. Also, horseman should fall off his horse even, if he's no dead yet. I could count further, but our matter is not about realism, but logic.
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: ReLeNtLeSs on August 16, 2011, 05:56:52 pm
For a fallen you sure seem to be doing it wrong.  Cut the bullshit about archers, I have one just for lulz and to go trolling on because it's easy.  Perforated_Prostate.  Used to be Moneyshot. I've always had an archer alt to go be a fucktard on when I'm feeling lazy and don't want to put effort into melee.  Hell, I run naked with a horn bow and barbed arrows and a damned practice sword and still come out positive on the kdr side.
The other fallen seem to have no problem with archery AT ALL, so maybe you should stop skipping those clan meetings and train with them to see what you're doing wrong.  Just sayin'.

Doing it wrong, me? Never.

I guess you have missed the MULTIPLE threads from some of my clanmates and others about the exact same issues, but as for the rest of your statement. (SEE BOLD)

 :lol:

You giant fucking troll.  :wink:
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Bonze on August 17, 2011, 03:15:33 am

I'm a real archer and I made my own 90 pounds english-warbow and arrows...
and im able to draw the bow for 15 sec and then I'm aways able to shot accurate.
So I know what I'm talking about :wink:

Sorry if my english is not perfect...

sure .... sure....cpt. superman.  I can jump 2 meter high  with 360° rotation and 1 sec later ill hit a target 2000 meters away with my  self made warbow,
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: _Sebastian_ on August 17, 2011, 10:50:59 am
sure .... sure....cpt. superman.  I can jump 2 meter high  with 360° rotation and 1 sec later ill hit a target 2000 meters away with my  self made warbow,

Realy?

You must be batman...
Title: Re: Power Draw in cRPG
Post by: Bonze on August 17, 2011, 02:34:02 pm
Realy?

You must be batman...

No iam a rl archer...