cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Prpavi on August 02, 2011, 02:03:53 pm
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Ok im not making any nerf/buff statements here I want to hear from you and see your experience using them and against them.
since im playing a weakling archer i am aware of my low armour and i get 1 shot from xbows all the time, im wandering whats the medium/heavy armour guy experience with this and how do you feel about their accuracy and if you think their damage is appropriate.
debate.
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i have about 65 body armour with 7 IF and a normal arbalest will do about 3/4 of my hp in 1 hit and a mw about 4/5.
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Get one-hitted in medium armor quite a lot on my alt char.
There are two points about xbows that make me grumble:
- damage should be a lot higher than the better bows, but not THAT high (currently Arbalest has almost 4x the pierce damage of a Longbow - which is a joke, historically and balance-wise
- accuracy is high and should be high - I'm fine with that. Unfortunately there is still no requirement for handling xbows besides strength, so any idiot can pick one up and oneshot people with 0 skill and more accuracy than most reasonably skilled archers... which is LOLable at best.
oh, actually there is a third point, but that is more about bows than xbows: missile speed of xbows makes sense, but compared to that of bows it is too high, or better that of the bows is too low, used to be ok two patches back...
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There's a very big thread about this in the game balance discussion and paul did the math about arbalest damage on various amounts of armour.
(Raw) damage is randomised sligthly(0.9-1.0) but both of the following armor soak and reduce calculation armor is randomised by 0.5 to 1.0. So with higher the armor level the target has, the wider is the possible damage range.
Example:
MW Arbalest with MW steel bolts -> base_damage = 100p
against naked, point blank, body shot:
90 to 100 damage (aka certain death)
against 30 (body) armor, point blank, body shot:
55 to 81 damage, 67 avr, damage span = 81 - 55 = 26
against 50 armor, point blank, body shot:
38 to 70 damage, 52 avr, damage span = 70 - 38 = 32
against 70 armor, point blank, body shot:
25 to 61 damage, 40 avr, damage span = 61 - 25 = 36
As you can see, it can take as much as 3 point blank body shots to kill a target with 7IF and 65 armour.
When it's raining, it will take 1 or 2 additional hits.
Damage should be a lot higher than the better bows, but not THAT high (currently Arbalest has almost 4x the pierce damage of a Longbow - which is a joke, historically and balance-wise.
Arbalest deals just over 3x the damage a longbow does.
Arbalest does not get a damage increase from wpf and PD, which the longbow does.
Arbalest is about 3x slower in firing rate compared to the longbow.
In the end, the arbalest deals about 2x the damage of a longbow (after damage increasing effects) and is a lot slower.
Sounds balanced to me.
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I'm wondering what's the medium/heavy armour guy experience with this and how do you feel about their accuracy and if you think their damage is appropriate.
It's fine.
Crossbows trade off mobility and reload speed for hard hitting firepower. The fact that you're getting hit by them might mean that you're not moving enough, or just getting unlucky.
Chaos has a crossbow corps that do fine, mostly because they use a lot of high ground, and take a lot of cover (a la counter strike, I still give them crap for it).
As a heavy, I find that crossbow hits only hurt when I get hit in the head within the effective range of the bolts.
In my medium armor, it takes 3 hits to drop me, which to me is one too many for a normal man, even in mail.
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It's fine.
Crossbows trade off mobility and reload speed for hard hitting firepower. The fact that you're getting hit by them might mean that you're not moving enough, or just getting unlucky.
Chaos has a crossbow corps that do fine, mostly because they use a lot of high ground, and take a lot of cover (a la counter strike, I still give them crap for it).
Besides this, we also all are "dedicated" xbow. I personally have 130 wpf in xbow and only 100 in 1h. Most Xbow builds are a variation in this.
The people you all like to complain about (the pure 30 str build with an arba who kills everyone) doesn't exist. If you are being sniped or even hit by an Arba/Heavy xbow...most likely the person has quite a bit of wpf dumped into xbow in order to be accurate.
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Arbalest will two shot you in whatever armor you're in, if not one shot you.
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Besides this, we also all are "dedicated" xbow. I personally have 130 wpf in xbow and only 100 in 1h. Most Xbow builds are a variation in this.
The guy with 130 wpf in xbow is by no means a "dedicated" xbow.
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The guy with 130 wpf in xbow is by no means a "dedicated" xbow.
160 here, 87 2h.
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The guy with 130 wpf in xbow is by no means a "dedicated" xbow.
considering the fact that past 120 wpf in xbows is near useless, I'd say 130 is dedicated for it.
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considering the fact that past 120 wpf in xbows is near useless, I'd say 130 is dedicated for it.
It's useful if you're wearing armor, and I believe accuracy is affected up to 130 or 140 something..
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The guy with 130 wpf in xbow is by no means a "dedicated" xbow.
considering i only have 130 in 2h... am i not a two hander?
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One word. OP
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considering i only have 130 in 2h... am i not a two hander?
Ranged classes require more wpf than melee classes in order to be effective.
Back on the topic about our experience, I don't remember being oneshotted in the chest/legs by any kind of crossbow in my medium armor set (haubergeon + mail mittens, 7 IF), however, they can take up to ~60-65% hp with one bolt.
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I don't think that crossbows are overpowered. If something is op it is longbows (piercing damage).
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I don't think that crossbows are overpowered. If something is op it is longbows (piercing damage).
Yes, let's change Longbow piercing damage to blunt damage
And cut damage from other bows to blunt damage as well.
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Yes, let's change Longbow piercing damage to blunt damage
And cut damage from other bows to blunt damage as well.
I don't think you realize that blunt damage is as good as pierce.
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Unfortunately there is still no requirement for handling xbows besides strength, so any idiot can pick one up and oneshot people with 0 skill and more accuracy than most reasonably skilled archers... which is LOLable at best.
While there is no skill requirement, the lower your WPF, the more likely you are to have to repair an xbow. Even up to 130+ (at 166 now) I was getting raped on repairs every round. So that's something, at least.
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wow, 1st you lot bitch about throwers and they got nurfed (but its good they are back now)
then you bitch about archers and they get nurfed.
now you are bitching about xbow lol?
the xbow has been like this for a long time, why is it only NOW this is coming up in general discussion? is it because now that archery has been nurfed more people have spec to xbow? so because more people are using it only then is it OP?
why cant you just get better at the game instead of crying nerf on every fucking item.
as i have said before if the item is so fucking over powered they why dont you just use it.
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Dedicated xbowman checking in at a whopping 133 WPF (before i retired).
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I don't think you realize that blunt damage is as good as pierce.
On vargas's damage calculator blunt does more damage on higher armour ratings, even more then pierce, so it would be a massive buff.
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I think the calc is outdated?
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I think the calc is outdated?
By one version, I doubt the the damage values themselves have changed anyhow.
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Ranged classes require more wpf than melee classes in order to be effective.
Back on the topic about our experience, I don't remember being oneshotted in the chest/legs by any kind of crossbow in my medium armor set (haubergeon + mail mittens, 7 IF), however, they can take up to ~60-65% hp with one bolt.
130-150 is equivalent to dedicated in Crossbows, actually. The bonuses from higher wpf after that are so minor that it's not even worth the trouble. Archery on the other hand may be different.
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crossbows will ruin crpg, its a noskill no commit cowardweapon.
Soon you will see all meleefighters with one of these on their back. 1slot crossbow + bolts.
It is simpler,more accurate,hits harder and faster than any archer or thrower.
And you still have plenty of points to other skills like PS, meleeWPF , shield.
Like the medieval pope I would like to BAN the crossbow.
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crossbows will ruin crpg, its a noskill no commit cowardweapon.
Soon you will see all meleefighters with one of these on their back. 1slot crossbow + bolts.
It is simpler,more accurate,hits harder and faster than any archer or thrower.
And you still have plenty of points to other skills like PS, meleeWPF , shield.
Like the medieval pope I would like to BAN the crossbow.
I'm sorry... this is just all untrue. To use the arbalest effectively at long range you need a ton of wpf.
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crossbows will ruin crpg, its a noskill no commit cowardweapon.
Soon you will see all meleefighters with one of these on their back. 1slot crossbow + bolts.
It is simpler,more accurate,hits harder and faster than any archer or thrower.
And you still have plenty of points to other skills like PS, meleeWPF , shield.
Like the medieval pope I would like to BAN the crossbow.
You just delegitimized your whole post by talking about honor. Truly we can do "honorable" battle from behind our computer screens with our hands clutching our mice. Our forefathers? Built countries and fought wars and truly we do them credit in our battles in Calradia.
Give me a break man, it's a game for fun and any weapon combination possible will be listed as "cowardly". Use a shield? Cowardly? Use a 1hitting 2hander? Cowardly. Use a ministun polearm? Cowardly. Archers? AHAHAHAHAHA.
If you honestly think honor has anything to do with playing a video game you've depressed the hell out of me today, i sincerely hope this is a joke post.
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Im wandering is it possible to incorporate some kind of "requirement" for xbow like power draw.
Also the crosshair expansion as on bows, not as quick and radical but face it xbows were heavy but theres no way the could have held them for minutes without getting tired.
those two things would balance the class perfectly imo.
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Im wandering is it possible to incorporate some kind of "requirement" for xbow like power draw.
Also the crosshair expansion as on bows, not as quick and radical but face it xbows were heavy but theres no way the could have held them for minutes without getting tired.
those two things would balance the class perfectly imo.
The class is balanced, what skill would you possibly add? You can't increase power to xbows so there can be no PD or PS equivalent and every other classes accuracy/speed/damage is increased by WPF whereas xbows only get an increase to speed(reload) and accuracy. There is nothing wrong with xbows as is. Also if you want to talk about "getting tired" you're talking about stamina unless we're in a fantasy balance world where xbowmen get tired from holding up an xbow, but 2handers can swing a heavy sword, or better yet a maul or mallet, around all day without breaking a sweat.
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The class is balanced, what skill would you possibly add? You can't increase power to xbows so there can be no PD or PS equivalent and every other classes accuracy/speed/damage is increased by WPF whereas xbows only get an increase to speed(reload) and accuracy. There is nothing wrong with xbows as is. Also if you want to talk about "getting tired" you're talking about stamina unless we're in a fantasy balance world where xbowmen get tired from holding up an xbow, but 2handers can swing a heavy sword around all day without breaking a sweat.
Let me guess. You are an xbower?
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Let me guess. You are an xbower?
Let me guess, you didn't have a rational counterpoint so you resorted to the lowest common denominator to try to refute my argument?
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Maybe xbow needs to use more WPF to be as accurate as it is now with 120?
Just scale the curve of the skill instead, so that after say 180 wpf there is little to gain as far as accuracy is concerned.
That way dedicated xbowmen will be the only ones who are very accurate with their weapon and others not so much.
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crossbows will ruin crpg, its a noskill no commit cowardweapon.
Soon you will see all meleefighters with one of these on their back. 1slot crossbow + bolts.
It is simpler,more accurate,hits harder and faster than any archer or thrower.
And you still have plenty of points to other skills like PS, meleeWPF , shield.
Like the medieval pope I would like to BAN the crossbow.
This is why we can't have nice things.
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Let me guess, you didn't have a rational counterpoint so you resorted to the lowest common denominator to try to refute my argument?
ok, you didnt answer the question, rather you attempted a smart pun, so i guess Yes you are.
the class is not balanced because of the lack of "requirement" of some sort either wpf or PD or something similar.
the problems are as i stated: minute long steady crosshair, no requirement and use of it with 0 wpf. sry but strenght alone cant be a single requirement for using an xbow.
so yeah i dont think the class is balanced, beacuse you get "free" points to spend in IF, PS etc. insted of using it in a xbow skill that doesnt exist at the time.
this is the only class that doenst have a requirement and it deals too much damage not to have one.
Soon you will see all meleefighters with one of these on their back. 1slot crossbow + bolts.
what do you mean soon, its been happening for a while now.
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Xbows are fine. Archery is just very UP right now. Increase arrow speeds a bit and unnerf bodkin costs and you'll see some of these xbow hybrids go back to archery. I know for a fact that as soon as I hit 31 I'm going to do my next build as an xbow because archery just doesn't have enough umph to it anymore.
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ok, you didnt answer the question, rather you attempted a smart pun, so i guess Yes you are.
the class is not balanced because of the lack of "requirement" of some sort either wpf or PD or something similar.
the problems are as i stated: minute long steady crosshair, no requirement and use of it with 0 wpf. sry but strenght alone cant be a single requirement for using an xbow.
so yeah i dont think the class is balanced, beacuse you get "free" points to spend in IF, PS etc. insted of using it in a xbow skill that doesnt exist at the time.
this is the only class that doenst have a requirement and it deals too much damage not to have one.
what do you mean soon, its been happening for a while now.
He didn't answer your question because it was totally irrelevant other than the fact that you tried to hint that he is biased towards crossbows because of the fact that he is one (Which is a terrible argument for the record.) The crossbows don't have something akin to a PD requirement because as it stands it is set to where only reload speed and crosshair size are effected by WPF(unlike bows and throwing). The crossbows are meant do alot of damage higher up but the reload speed is bloody horrible, even when you masterwork them, which is totally fine. You're talking about an extremely situation dependent weapon in xbows. They are great for defense and fighting from elevation but when it comes to fighting on level ground or in open fields, they suffer greatly. They are not nearly as versatile as bows and they are also greatly effected by the weather as well as have the single highest repair bill of any offensive weapon in the game right now.
I would be ok with steepening WPF requirements to make it so that only dedicated xbowmen could do well with them, but adding a PD function simply isn't needed as it stands. There is a reason why you don't see guys like Tankmen or the like running around with sidearm arbalests anymore, the new upkeep system destroys one's bank. I don't mean to sound condescending but if you're going to talk about why a certain item should or shouldn't be nerfed you ought to have the full picture so as you don't look like you're talking out of your ass.
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Do you also thing that no expansion on the crosshair is cool?
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It's pretty cool.
Crossbows are underpowered :(
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It's pretty cool.
Crossbows are underpowered :(
You should increase reload time by another couple seconds for the high tier crossbows, and increase projectile speed to like 90 or somthin.
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Considering that the reload time is so god awfully long, expanding crosshairs don't really make any sense. Again, can you imagine playing in rain as a crossbowman, having only a window of two to three seconds to get a shot off once a bolt is drawn and then STILL having to reload for a few seconds?
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Considering that the reload time is so god awfully long, expanding crosshairs don't really make any sense. Again, can you imagine playing in rain as a crossbowman, having only a window of two to three seconds to get a shot off once a bolt is drawn and then STILL having to reload for a few seconds?
revolutionary war style, hell yeah
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I don't know about the EU and NA servers, but in Australian and Chinese servers you can't walk anywhere without being gunned down by 3+ crossbows. It is so bad on some maps that I'll just go spectator for the rest of the game.
I think the strength requirement of the higher tier crossbows should be increased so you don't see people running around with 100 WPF arbalests, 150 1h WPF and 8 athletics.
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Nerf the huge untouched heirloom bonus problem solved yes :?:
Both xbows/bolts