cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dexxtaa on July 22, 2011, 03:18:24 pm
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This is crazy. I've not bought a damn thing on the market for a month for the simple reason that people are asking tremendous prices for their heirlooms.
Back up a few months ago and you'd find an heirloom point running for 200k and a masterwork weapon selling for perhaps 400k or on the high end demand, 600k.
Now we're seeing x2 weapons selling for the old MW prices, and a SINGLE heirloom point selling for the price of the current x2 weapon (old MW prices).
I've been hoping to purchase a decent weapon on the market for a while, but I refuse to buy anything for the prices asked. Seriously, masterwork shashkas are not worth a million gold. Right now big players are the only people who can buy anything on the market.
I'm not saying "drop the prices so I can buy shit," I'm just asking for fair trade on the market, versus trying to screw each other over for a profit. I imagine everyone would benefit, and stuff would get sold faster.
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The poors will always be poor and the riches will always be rich. It is truly the nature of any economy.
Seriously though, with less people retiring because of strategus both heirloom points and heirlooms themselves increased in value.
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dont worry the ~INVISIBLE HAND~ will sort it out
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dont worry the ~INVISIBLE HAND~ will sort it out
Go to hell yer right wing bastard!
Wait, I'm capitalistic as fuck in c-rpg.
I don't need this deflation crap, I want more money.
I vote no to this bill.
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Don't think this is going to change. People are going to charge what people are willing to pay.
It doesn't help matters either that it takes a hell of a long time to get to 31. Makes heirlooms even more rare.
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Market deflation? Are you suggesting devaluation of the cRPG$? Or do you mean a price ceiling?
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Looks to me like a solid reason why upkeep is not too high: if heirlooms keep increasing in price, that suggests that at least some people have lots of gold to spend, right?
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Looks to me like a solid reason why upkeep is not too high: if heirlooms keep increasing in price, that suggests that at least some people have lots of gold to spend, right?
Ehhhh.... Don't balance something based on "some" players...
Tydeus for example has so much money that he can simply play the market game and with trading and selling and buying make a few hundred thousand a week hence his stupid high levels of gold now... Upkeep of any level simply does not effect him due to him keeping an eye out on the market for good deals, as well as having the cash to take "invest costs" and turn them around without blinking.
Balance off of the average player not the 100 or so super rich guys.
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As long as you're able to sell heirlooms people who can grind all day every day will always be rich no matter how high you set upkeep.
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DONT PAY FOR OVer PRICEd ITEMS! Tell the grind nerds to go to hell!
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Looks to me like a solid reason why upkeep is not too high: if heirlooms keep increasing in price, that suggests that at least some people have lots of gold to spend, right?
This is pretty retarded logic. The top 1% have 98% of the money, let's tax the middle class. Wait, what? You're republican aren't you?
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This is pretty retarded logic. The top 1% have 98% of the money, let's tax the middle class. Wait, what? You're republican aren't you?
I voted for bush both times. Now I am a card carrying member of the tea party and nra. Verily I am one with the spirit of America.
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Phasey your post are starting to sound more and more retarded... wtf dude :?: :mad:'
Also you gotta take into account players who have been archers for 9 gens before upkeep and mad upkeep and players that exploited the no upkeep bug who would have had a billion gold by the time the market place even got created.
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This is crazy. I've not bought a damn thing on the market for a month for the simple reason that people are asking tremendous prices for their heirlooms.
Back up a few months ago and you'd find an heirloom point running for 200k and a masterwork weapon selling for perhaps 400k or on the high end demand, 600k.
Now we're seeing x2 weapons selling for the old MW prices, and a SINGLE heirloom point selling for the price of the current x2 weapon (old MW prices).
I've been hoping to purchase a decent weapon on the market for a while, but I refuse to buy anything for the prices asked. Seriously, masterwork shashkas are not worth a million gold. Right now big players are the only people who can buy anything on the market.
I'm not saying "drop the prices so I can buy shit," I'm just asking for fair trade on the market, versus trying to screw each other over for a profit. I imagine everyone would benefit, and stuff would get sold faster.
We should ask you why won't you sell any of your heirlooms? The "high" prices people offer aren't enough to get you to part with them?
Well, that's the case for other people too. They want to acquire heirlooms, not sell them. They don't feel like those prices are "screwing people over" for profit, or else they'd be jumping at the chance to sell their own stuff (and thus cause a glut of competition to sell items, forcing prices down). Rather, it'll take a big offer to get them to sell.
If prices were to be forced down somehow, you'd probably find the bigger problem becomes that the items you want aren't for sale rather than the price being too high.
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Perhaps capped prices for heirlooms? As in, set a maximum price per level of heirloom item. This ensures people get good money for selling items, non-wealthy players have some hope of buying items, and we avoid unwanted inflation. The only folks who seem to lose anything in this scheme are the folks already making tonnes of money.
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Was money wiped when the upkeep system was introduced? If it wasn't then I would say that is the clear verdict for why prices are out of whack with us peasant folk. Rich stay rich is right, unless you start snatchin it away. I agree that if the only people that lose are the ones that have boat loads of cRPG gold then it's a win-win.
About that upkeep though, did people keep their old money?
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*nerdy economist voice*
Economic analysis says that if prices are going up, then either a) demand is going up, or b) supply is contracting. Since people never run out of heirlooms, income must be going up and thus more demand.
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Although prices might have started there they very quickly went up to the 300k per point that has been pretty standard since then. List prices on the market may be creeping up a little but these are items that haven't sold. If you look at high volume popular items(espada eslavona, danish GS, horn bows, bodkins) price wars between sellers have kept the items at nice "fair" prices. Now maybe that price is still above your personal valuation of the item but around 300k per point many sellers are willing to sell and many buyers are willing to buy so its fair to many people. When items go up at these fair prices sales usually happen quickly.
Unfortunately if you aren't dealing in a high volume item since this is a very small market and a market that sees far more item for item trading than it does item for gold trading it might be a while before your desired item drops to an fair price. +1 armors are a great example of a large correction. A month and a half ago there were almost none listed and anyone selling them were convinced that armor sells for far more than weapons because its much rarer. Well the lovely combination of these 500k +1 armors not selling and the listing of more +1 armors on the market has led to many of their list prices dropping down to the commonly considered fair price of 300k.
One thing the devs could do to facilitate faster price corrections (and thus faster trading) would be to list the last sale price and the average sale price for items. Every time an item sells all that's left are the prices of what didn't sell so having the sale information would save alot of time on low volume items where the downward price adjustments may take a long time.
Since destiny brought up tydeus, he is actually a good benchmark for prices. He does not have unlimited money. The faster he turns around an item the faster he frees up the capital to deal in another item and make more money. I would actually say a active trader is more likely to set a fair price than someone who has a personal attachment to their heirloom and thus attaches a higher value to it. Current examples, +3 Broad one handed Battle axe for 925k or +1 nordic champ for 335k. Both these items have no competition on the market and have reasonable prices set. Go and compare those to other items with no competition. If you look at +3 longswords tydeus has the lowest price listed (950k) and I'm sure if I keep looking i'll find more examples of him setting approximately "fair" prices.
I'm sorry Diomedes but price caps (if binding) only lead to low supply and non binding caps have no effect.
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I've seen heirloom points stay steady at 450k for at least a month.
Most weapons are 300k-350k per 1+. However this REALLY varies because of all the soup de jour weapons that go in and out of style and how rare something is.
Really I think prices have been quite stable, although we might see some fluctuations because of gold being diverted to strat. Value of unused heirloom points due to less retiring maybe? I dunno. If it does happen, it's very good for new players as the more value they can get for their first and maybe only way to make some big money. Prices can go up, up, up for all I give a shit, it's better for new comers. The old gold stockpiles will be worth less, and if all prices go up, unused loom points can be sold for more, giving more buying power to new dudes to sell their first loom point.
*nerdy economist voice*
Economic analysis says that if prices are going up, then either a) demand is going up, or b) supply is contracting. Since people never run out of heirlooms, income must be going up and thus more demand.
Economics is infinitely more complicated that freshman econ.
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I don't bother with the marketplace. Ridiculous prices. 'Easier' just to retire yourself and heirloom.
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We should ask you why won't you sell any of your heirlooms? The "high" prices people offer aren't enough to get you to part with them?
I don't sell my heirlooms because I have no reason to, since I use them all on a daily basis. No one has offered me any money for my heirlooms, either (but this point is moot, since they're not for sale anyway).
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I don't sell my heirlooms because I have no reason to, since I use them all on a daily basis. No one has offered me any money for my heirlooms, either (but this point is moot, since they're not for sale anyway).
Likewise, I have every heirloom I want, and they are not for sell. Only way I would part with them is if you were to offer me twice their value, so I could get a replica right back.
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We should ask you why won't you sell any of your heirlooms? The "high" prices people offer aren't enough to get you to part with them?
Well, the problem with that is, if you offer at the values that are advertised noone is buying them (at least not mine) so you are kind of stuck. Without selling you won't have enough money to buy what you want, but you can't go significantly under the price if you don't want massive losses.
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Looks to me like a solid reason why upkeep is not too high: if heirlooms keep increasing in price, that suggests that at least some people have lots of gold to spend, right?
indead!
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We just need a solid gold sink for CRPG other than upkeep. For example you could pay a certain amount of money to repecc your char without losing xp. Or you could bypass the 7 day STF char thing for money. Just examples but there has to be a few good options.
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for fucks sake, didnt you guys learn anything?
This is what we call tinkle down economics. The rich have lots of money and spend it, and therefore it goes to the poor people.
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for fucks sake, didnt you guys learn anything?
This is what we call tinkle down economics. The rich have lots of money and spend it, and therefore it goes to the poor people.
I feel like an 8 year old for bursting out laughing at your typo. I love humorous accidents.
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for fucks sake, didnt you guys learn anything?
This is what we call tinkle down economics. The rich have lots of money and spend it, and therefore it goes to the poor people.
Problem is that is that the poor don't have heirlooms.
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So it takes an average of 72 hours to retire, and now we are urging people to sell their first loom?
Well screw you new guy, now it is 144 hours before you can actually get it and keep it!
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@ Tears - Gold is worthless anyhow
demand is high, gold comes cheap, I see no reason for prices not to inflate, just don't pay them, also often times u can contact the person and offer a lower amount, I have gotten stuff 50-66% of listed price by contacting the seller direct, especially if u see something that no one wants usually
artificially capping prices on the market stifles trade because individuals will be less likely to sell their items they've had to retire back to 1 for, one of the early complainers on this said he WOULD not pay the price, not that he couldn't afford it............that's the essence of a market, if u actually want to sell the item, you may have to lower the offer price, if u want to buy the item at a lower price, contact the Vendor lol(the same is true IRL btw)
read my sig, not sure where I got it over 10 years ago, but it holds true, gold is essentially worthless, winning can earn u more and more, heirlooms on the other hand are not endless as they are gained discretely and come with a high price(reset to lv 1 and get raped by level 35's)
u decide not to retire, well then time to give up some of that gold to buy that other guys family jewels, capping prices only jacks newcomers more, chadz should set a retroactive tax on all income for everyones insolence
*DrK comes into character screen, has -1,668,000,000 gold* "oops"
JUST SAY NO TO CAP AND TRADE
PS the only true deflation would be to increase heirloom rate gain, like say +50% bonus for mains that say goes down by 5% each gen u gain while u get the weak +3% bonus {that way put more new heirlooms in hands of new players}
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I suggest gold and heirloom wipe with funny hats and halos as compensation.
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Well, the problem with that is, if you offer at the values that are advertised noone is buying them (at least not mine) so you are kind of stuck. Without selling you won't have enough money to buy what you want, but you can't go significantly under the price if you don't want massive losses.
Is your item something popular that people would want, or is it something not commonly used? Is the item you want something popular and in demand? Not all heirlooms are equal, even if they take the same amount of effort to acquire. So if you have something that's not so popular, you may have to accept that it won't sell for as much as the item you want. For example, I see a +1 light lance is listed for 250k while a +1 heavy lance is listed for 350k. In my opinion, the heavy lance is still a much better value. Even if the light lance were only 50k, I'd still only buy the heavy for 300k more.
Perhaps try setting the price to an amount that is lower than most other items at that heirloom level. So for example, if you are selling a sword, there may be a buyer who is interested in either gloves, body armor, or a weapon, and is looking to buy whichever of those is cheapest. And be realistic about how much you think people want your item, rather than believing there is a minimum price per heirloom level regardless of the usefulness of the item. I mean, nobody wants heirloomed stones except as a novelty item.
BTW, I've traded a +1 steppe horse for a +1 heavy lance. I just made a bunch of listings for all the items I'd be willing to accept for the steppe horse, plus a gold-only offer that was a decent amount less than any other horse.
I don't sell my heirlooms because I have no reason to, since I use them all on a daily basis. No one has offered me any money for my heirlooms, either (but this point is moot, since they're not for sale anyway).
The point I was trying to make was that you are not selling any heirlooms because you value them more than the amount of gold you could get for them. However, you would be willing to pay the current market prices for the heirlooms you want to buy, if you had the money, even though you say those prices are screwing people. So in reality, the fact that you're willing to buy but not sell at those prices indicates that those prices aren't too high.
I actually think there is a bit of a shortage on the market for armors with a decent upkeep cost. This is especially true for gloves. I bet someone could sell some heirloomed gloves for more gold than they would need to buy most of the weapons listed.
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Perhaps capped prices for heirlooms? As in, set a maximum price per level of heirloom item. This ensures people get good money for selling items, non-wealthy players have some hope of buying items, and we avoid unwanted inflation. The only folks who seem to lose anything in this scheme are the folks already making tonnes of money.
First of all, I disagree with the whole premise of ignoring a player made economy. As long as you can make multiple transactions, capping the price of heirlooms is all but impossible. Well, I guess it would be possible to cap it by making them for sale in the same manner than regular weapons are. But I hope everybody would see why that's not a good idea.
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So we now have a true market, demand and supply creating a real and complex minigame within a battle game - and some people want me to regulate this beatuy?
Like hell I will!
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I suggest gold and heirloom wipe with funny hats and halos as compensation.
PLEEEEEAAAASE do this.
The game has changed so much that a gold and heirloom wipe would be completely justified.
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PLEEEEEAAAASE do this.
The game has changed so much that a gold and heirloom wipe would be completely justified.
Stop whining and start killing.
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Stop whining and start killing.
lol, I have my heirlooms and my gold.
I just think putting EVERYONE on even ground again NOW would be a good call.
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Market PVP is an amazing addition to this game and it would be a travesty to destroy simply because people feel they can't afford what they want. Heirlooms are luxury items, hence luxury prices. Your staple weapons are all affordable, if you want the good gear either grind it or buy it at the prices people are willing to sell for. Telling people that their time spent grinding their heirloom is worth x isn't going to lead to lower prices, it's going to lead to an unpopulated market.
I wish more people paid attention when they took economics.
Supply and demand bros. Certain heirlooms sell for pennies because no one wants them, certain items sell at a low price because many are trying to offload them, and a few sell for a quite high price because they fly off the market the second they are put up. Learn to play the market and you can get any item you want for cheap, don't learn to play the market and hand over fistfuls of gold like everyone else who can't be bothered to learn simple business principles.
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So we now have a true market, demand and supply creating a real and complex minigame within a battle game - and some people want me to regulate this beatuy?
Like hell I will!
Capitalism ftw!
Fuck the lower classes!
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Supply and demand bros. Certain heirlooms sell for pennies because no one wants them, certain items sell at a low price because many are trying to offload them, and a few sell for a quite high price because they fly off the market the second they are put up. Learn to play the market and you can get any item you want for cheap, don't learn to play the market and hand over fistfuls of gold like everyone else who can't be bothered to learn simple business principles.
Items should be balanced between themselves. True balance would mean every items costing roughly the same because every item has it's good sides and bad sides. Items with good stats should have very high upkeep so that cheaper ones have that advantage over them even if their stats are worse. Sadly that's not the case cause devs can't balance shit.
This is not a real worlds market where there is A, B, C, D and E grade of chinese quality merchandise. This is a game which should be balanced. Now that's not the case and it seems that never will be.
Items which are "good" and in high demand are broken, each one in it's own way:
Elite Scimi - invisible reach, too fast, hard to block therefore best sword
Heavy Lance - longest reach lance therefore simply the best, others are shit
Any armor - way too much armor bonus per heirloom
Arbalest - since xbows are op now this one is in high demand
lolPikes/Spears/Axes - again bad dev decision to buff them
High demand item = inbalanced item
Edit: Oh yeah, almost forgot. Screw you Fallen my old friend for kicking me while I was writing this post. I'll make sure that your puny clan made of my old friendchers and other lowlives suffers in strategus. That would be all.
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Items should be balanced between themselves. True balance would mean every items costing roughly the same because every item has it's good sides and bad sides. Items with good stats should have very high upkeep so that cheaper ones have that advantage over them even if their stats are worse. Sadly that's not the case cause devs can't balance shit.
This is not a real worlds market where there is A, B, C, D and E grade of chinese quality merchandise. This is a game which should be balanced. Now that's not the case and it seems that never will be.
Items which are "good" and in high demand are broken, each one in it's own way:
Elite Scimi - invisible reach, too fast, hard to block therefore best sword
Heavy Lance - longest reach lance therefore simply the best, others are shit
Any armor - way too much armor bonus per heirloom
Arbalest - since xbows are op now this one is in high demand
lolPikes/Spears/Axes - again bad dev decision to buff them
High demand item = inbalanced item
Edit: Oh yeah, almost forgot. Screw you Fallen my old friend for kicking me while I was writing this post. I'll make sure that your puny clan made of friendly archers and other lowlives suffers in strategus. That would be all.
Like i said, some items are more in demand than others. A honda civic is a solid car that has cheap replacement parts and will last for a decent amount of time. People still buy ferraris though, and pay through the nose for power that can't be used legally. Luxury and high demand is expensive. Low demand is not. I'm not really sure what other way to put it.
As for everything should be "balanced" exactly to every other item, perhaps that could be done but it would require overhauling the entire weapon system and would be incredibly unlikely. Beyond that it would kill the emerging market pvp scene, which is quite interesting to play.
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Looks to me like a solid reason why upkeep is not too high: if heirlooms keep increasing in price, that suggests that at least some people have lots of gold to spend, right?
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Money is scarce, also the demands of stategeus limit the amount of players retiring. The upshoot is that a select few (non new players) can afford to spend their accumalted wealth on such things. This artifically raises their value. However it is just a bubble.
In this case the amount of fluid money floating about has declined since the last update. So people are prepared to pay over the odds for the same item that would of been cheaper before the update. Its inflation, as the money supply gets contracted, prices rise. However eventually the money will run out. We will see a situation where nobody will be able to afford a MW weapon and prices will crash. Once they do, the minority left with money will invest in these items hoping to recoup. However once their money is spent, they will find an ever decreasing market for the. My advice is its a bad investment.
Due to an inhernt decline in earning potential for all the entire economy will contract. Even so its intresting times, but i dont think we will realise the effects of the current update for a few months yet.
Save it if you got it.
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If you ask me, prices will go down. New upkeep is cruel to everyone, there are no money making my old friendchers who stockpile gold and raise prices at marketplace. Now they bleed like everyone else. Earning money is hard, even with low end gear.
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So we now have a true market, demand and supply creating a real and complex minigame within a battle game - and some people want me to regulate this beatuy?
Like hell I will!
YAY my hero
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I suggest gold and heirloom wipe with funny hats and halos as compensation.
only if I somehow can receive the blame for it, and one of those hats that is like the fake arrow you wear on your head
(looks like an arrow threw your head)
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So we now have a true market, demand and supply creating a real and complex minigame within a battle game - and some people want me to regulate this beatuy?
Like hell I will!
+>9000
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Yeah market is so perfect, regulates itself.
ROFL
How many of you lost your jobs when global crisis started? Sorry I forgot, answer is none. Most of you are under aged kids...
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Yeah market is so perfect, regulates itself.
ROFL
How many of you lost your jobs when global crisis started? Sorry I forgot, answer is none. Most of you are under aged kids...
I did actually, along with 26 other guys in the shop I was working for. So on that note, fuck you.
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Yeah market is so perfect, regulates itself.
ROFL
How many of you lost your jobs when global crisis started? Sorry I forgot, answer is none. Most of you are under aged kids...
Yep prety much, still riding the summer holidays.
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If you ask me, prices will go down. New upkeep is cruel to everyone, there are no money making friendly archers who stockpile gold and raise prices at marketplace. Now they bleed like everyone else. Earning money is hard, even with low end gear.
lol? now with WPF affecting upkeep, being an AGI build actually makes sense! Today i made 10 K in crpg gold, wearing 63k worth of equipment. My shit breaks a lot less because i have such a high WPF, its hilarious.
I don't even care about CRPG gold, i already have all the shit i want, except maybe horses for future cav. Its play money IMO.
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Well with the new upkeep system now in effect I have personally seen some prices beginning to drop on the market. Instead of x1 heirlooms being priced 350k-400k I've been seeing a lot for 300k or less. People just can't afford to buy high priced items anymore when upkeep the way it is drains people's money so horribly.
Personally unless I was very desperate I wouldn't ever pay more than 300k for an heirloom in the first place so I can see where you're coming from dexxta.
At the same time though I understand why items are so expensive being that less and less people are retiring due to the lack of exp bonuses aswell as strategus being up and running.
Although I must admit that for me this has all been very profitable being I still retire on the regular and can sell heirloom points for about 470k each to people who don't want to retire and have to relevel.
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I suggest gold and heirloom wipe with funny hats and halos as compensation.
I'd take 6!
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So we now have a true market, demand and supply creating a real and complex minigame within a battle game - and some people want me to regulate this beatuy?
Like hell I will!
This is the first smart choice chadz has made thus far.
Well.. making cRPG to begin with was okay. And Strategus. And.. aww heck, I'm overcome with so much love at this response that I can't even carry on the standard faux-chadz-hating.
Anyway, to the poor folk:
Yes, just sell your first heirloom point. Sell the second. Maybe sell all that you ever get; you'll have tons of money and will be able to use any normal equipment you want.
Heirloomed equipment, especially when it's just +1, is only marginally improved. Some of you talk about it as if you're stuck using peasant rags, but if you could just get them heirloomed they would be as good as black armor. Most likely you won't even notice the difference if you heirloom your usual weapon to +1 rather than selling the point. Even getting it to +3 is only a slight difference. But if you sell the point and have enough cash to use better normal equipment, you will notice a difference.
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The boni from heirlooms come at no handycap though.
F.e. if I heirloom my armor I get +2 for the same price.
Selling it and buying +2 heavier armor costs between 1k and 4k more and has 2 more weight or something.