cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Wookimonsta on July 13, 2011, 10:56:49 pm

Title: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Wookimonsta on July 13, 2011, 10:56:49 pm
Since lancers get this, why shouldnt Horse Archers?
If I cant turn my whole body, how come HAs can?
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: okiN on July 13, 2011, 10:58:44 pm
Because horse archers aren't putting the full weight of a one-hit lance thrust on their spine when they turn around to shoot.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Wookimonsta on July 13, 2011, 11:01:15 pm
Because horse archers aren't putting the full weight of a one-hit lance thrust on their spine when they turn around to shoot.

i am confused... i look at the lance thrust, most of it seems to come from the arm.
alternatively, give much faster ability to couch, so we can couch more often.

Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Patricia on July 13, 2011, 11:16:05 pm
i am confused... i look at the lance thrust, most of it seems to come from the arm.
alternatively, give much faster ability to couch, so we can couch more often.

I fucking DARE you to try and stab at someone on a fucking 90 degree angle thrust.

In real life Couches usually broke the fuck out of your lance too, so if anything we should reduce the speed at which lances can CHAINFUCKINGCOUCHES already.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Wookimonsta on July 13, 2011, 11:22:14 pm
I fucking DARE you to try and stab at someone on a fucking 90 degree angle thrust.

In real life Couches usually broke the fuck out of your lance too, so if anything we should reduce the speed at which lances can CHAINFUCKINGCOUCHES already.

guys... realism arguments have long since been established as useless. also, if you wanna talk realism, i dare you to put on chain armor and get charged by a full sized horse, k? and then just get up and walk away

also, one shotting people happens ALOT less, it only works for me on low armor targets
lastly, i dont want full turning ability back, but more than 40 degrees would be nice
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Patricia on July 13, 2011, 11:25:39 pm
Except 40 degrees actually makes sense.

And couching is already a free kill on anyone that doesn't have a shield if you know how to aim, how would it be fair to reduce the cooldown?
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Wookimonsta on July 13, 2011, 11:26:50 pm
Except 40 degrees actually makes sense.

And couching is already a free kill on anyone that doesn't have a shield if you know how to aim, how would it be fair to reduce the cooldown?

well, whats the reason for cooldown? is it stamina? are you too tired to do it again?
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on July 13, 2011, 11:27:24 pm
Except 40 degrees actually makes sense.

And couching is already a free kill on anyone that doesn't have a shield if you know how to aim, how would it be fair to reduce the cooldown?

If you know how to aim?

if your target is dumb more like  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: taimic on July 13, 2011, 11:27:37 pm
i want my light lance to have at least 80° what do i have a lighter lance for if i cant move around more-.-
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Wookimonsta on July 13, 2011, 11:30:37 pm
at least for couchable only lances itd be nice if i could do it more often
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Patricia on July 13, 2011, 11:39:40 pm
well, whats the reason for cooldown? is it stamina? are you too tired to do it again?

Reason for cooldown is so that instead of skilllessly insta-killing 5 guys in a row, that can't do shit about it if the cavalry knows how to aim and if they have no shield, in 5 seconds, you can only kill 1 in 5 seconds.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Wookimonsta on July 13, 2011, 11:43:36 pm
Reason for cooldown is so that instead of skilllessly insta-killing 5 guys in a row, that can't do shit about it if the cavalry knows how to aim and if they have no shield, in 5 seconds, you can only kill 1 in 5 seconds.

even with less cooldown, you couldnt insta kill5 guys. you need a certain speed to do a couch, low speed couch does a lot less damage. also, just by running away, you absorb alot of the damage the couched lance does since speed bonus gets diminished.
not to mention you have to lower the lance and this actually takes alot of distance on a fast horse.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on July 13, 2011, 11:46:53 pm
Because HA's and lancers are not the same.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Lichen on July 13, 2011, 11:48:58 pm
It's debatable the typical angle a RL horse archer could twist to the left and still shoot but holding and drawing a bow is much different than thrusting with a lance. Horse archers already can't shoot to their right side which is realistic (assuming they are right handed, the reverse would be true if left handed). Really 'thrusting' with a lance is not very realistic at all as far as I'm aware but I understand there needs to be a balance of fun & realism. If we are talking how RL cav fought my guess is many cav in a real battle scenario were likely 1 handed with maces, flails, swords, spear throwing etc (I'm no expert historian though). I even heard of knights on cav with crossbows (apparently they were the more elite troops). 
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Mithus on July 13, 2011, 11:54:12 pm
they would at least
put 60 degree to light lance
 50 to lance
and 45 to heavy lance.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Patricia on July 14, 2011, 12:53:26 am
I really doubt they can change the degree for individual weapons.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on July 14, 2011, 03:20:17 pm
Because horse archers aren't putting the full weight of a one-hit lance thrust on their spine when they turn around to shoot.

i guess you have vast experience with how lancing worked so you probably know what your saying, and showing a vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkXMkJ1rBhg) where guy demonstrates lancer attacks in all the different angles wont probably mean anything in this debate

thanks for putting "realistic" fix in a game filled with unrealistic things such as jumping attacks, circling around inf, 360 spin thrusts, archer jump turn over shots, tip of polearms stopping horses when hit in front even from sides etc etc

Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: BattalGazi on July 14, 2011, 03:27:40 pm
Horse archers should be given more degree of freedom on the horse compared to lancers. That was so in real life, so should be expected in the game.

If you like to see more, u may search "horse archery back shots" in various cultures' histories. I recommend Turkish and Mughal sources.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Skurcey on July 14, 2011, 03:28:26 pm
+ wooki something you forgot to mention:
HA cant fire on the left side
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: HentziTheHun on July 14, 2011, 03:29:02 pm
If one sucks then the other should suck too. This remembers me communism :)
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Bulzur on July 14, 2011, 03:38:16 pm
The only thing i find funny about HA, is that they NEED to use both hands for their bow (in contrary of lancers or 1handers/2handers with no shield, even with a shield you could say he's holding the shield and the whatever-the-word-in-english-is of the horse), but providing the horse and the riding skill is the same, HA have no malus in riding, or melee cav have no bonus in riding.

Don't tell me this crap about HA used their knees to move the horse, wich is reflected in the riding skill. I know this, and it's definitely true. But providing the SAME riding skill, cav with one free hand should have a bonus to their riding.

What do you think ? Common sense ?
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Skurcey on July 14, 2011, 03:41:58 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dowp7zmM72k
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Bulzur on July 14, 2011, 03:46:00 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dowp7zmM72k

What is this video suppose to show us :
-that the kid shoots on his left only
-that the kid shoots at an angle of approximately 40°
-that the kid holds at most 7 arrows on horseback
-that the horse doesn't go at full speed, nor does insane turn WHILE the kid is shooting
-it is just irrelevant
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Paul on July 14, 2011, 03:55:05 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_shot

I think in the beginning Mount&Blade was morel like a mounted archery simulator and Armagan and friends put alot of effort in it to get it right.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Skurcey on July 14, 2011, 03:59:59 pm
seriously Bulzur, your (as in plural) allready made nerf
-precision
-damage
-speed shot
-arrow speed
-weight of arrows

HA cost at least 8 skill point than a pure inf. So buy a shield, and use it, or stay at home, cultivate potato, and tell your grand childrens how a great warrion you could have been if all but your class had been nerfed ..... 
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Bulzur on July 14, 2011, 04:07:33 pm
seriously Bulzur, your (as in plural) allready made nerf
-precision
-damage
-speed shot
-arrow speed
-weight of arrows

HA cost at least 8 skill point than a pure inf. So buy a shield, and use it, or stay at home, cultivate potato, and tell your grand childrens how a great warrion you could have been if all but your class had been nerfed .....
HA HA HA HA HA !
I'm an archer.  :mrgreen:
I was just wondering through all thoses suggestions and adding my thoughts.
This one is kind of... unrealistic/unbalanced/stupid, but it's true that providing the same riding skill, i don't really understand why people with one free hand are not more efficient (in riding skill) than thoses with none. As simple as that.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on July 14, 2011, 05:14:04 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_shot

I think in the beginning Mount&Blade was morel like a mounted archery simulator and Armagan and friends put alot of effort in it to get it right.

and than all the people said fuck it lets drop the "mount" part...
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Joxer on July 14, 2011, 05:51:23 pm
i guess you have vast experience with how lancing worked so you probably know what your saying, and showing a vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkXMkJ1rBhg) where guy demonstrates lancer attacks in all the different angles wont probably mean anything in this debate

On a stationary horse with a 'lance' that amounts to a toothpick?  :lol: Go out and try and hit anything to the side while actually riding the horse and make a youtube vid. I'll be looking forward to it in failblog :D
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on July 14, 2011, 06:06:44 pm
On a stationary horse with a 'lance' that amounts to a toothpick?  :lol: Go out and try and hit anything to the side while actually riding the horse and make a youtube vid. I'll be looking forward to it in failblog :D

i tried to poke a horse with a stick that was on full speed from a side but it didnt get stopped instantly ;/ reality is a bitch
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 14, 2011, 06:13:00 pm
So did I. It hit his magnetic shield.

Oh, real life, right.

As for the topic. I've never played a horse archer and hate them. But no, this makes no sense. They should be able to shoot in a wide arc.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Lichen on July 14, 2011, 07:38:14 pm
Here we go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nNKo97TtF0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nNKo97TtF0&feature=related) Also lol at the anti HA comment on the vid.  Yeah that's a main reason why they invented this thing called ARMOR. Wear it. lol I have never once seen ANY HA in game take down a player in heavy armor.  And if it happens it's probably only after 15 arrows have hit him. Do people still think HA is overpowered?
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Digglez on July 14, 2011, 07:44:37 pm
they would at least
put 60 degree to light lance
 50 to lance
and 45 to heavy lance.

something like that would be grand
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Patricia on July 14, 2011, 09:50:52 pm
i guess you have vast experience with how lancing worked so you probably know what your saying, and showing a vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkXMkJ1rBhg) where guy demonstrates lancer attacks in all the different angles wont probably mean anything in this debate

thanks for putting "realistic" fix in a game filled with unrealistic things such as jumping attacks, circling around inf, 360 spin thrusts, archer jump turn over shots, tip of polearms stopping horses when hit in front even from sides etc etc

OH BECAUSE STABBING THE AIR IS REAL FUCKING DIFFICULT.

OH GOD I STAB THE AIR, MY SPINEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

Seriously, I DARE you to stab someone at some funky 90 degree angle and not seriously fuck your lance and yourself up off the horse.

There's a big difference between actually stabbing someone on horse while going at fast speed and standing still stabbing at the air looking like a stupid retard.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Felix on July 14, 2011, 10:03:14 pm
Lol, enough with bs about ppl not able to hit wider than 40 degree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkXMkJ1rBhg
It's not about realism or other thing. Cav just needed a nerf to make them less imba. HA can't be nerfed in that way - it's just STUPID. I am lancer and i am against it.

Wookie, just don't chase HA. If you did, dont whine when your horse got shot down.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Thomek on July 14, 2011, 10:39:06 pm
interesting video..

Some realism talk..

As you can see, the man is using only 1 arm, his shoulder and the muscle under the arm when thrusting it. I agree that the speed-bonus of a horse at speed would add a lot of damage, but if you transfer the mechanic to cRPG, the lances are completely unrealistic in their stabbing power.

A man using 2 arms standing on the ground would have much much more power in the thrusts.

He could use the weight of his body, 2 shoulders and 2 arms, in a much more efficient manner. I would imagine more than 3x the power. (I'm not saying the damage should be 3x, maybe much more more, maybe less depending on target.)

Not that this is relevant for the balance.. But if realism was a goal, perhaps boosting the speed-bonus, and lowering the damage that 1handed use of spears made would be interesting. Of course horsemen should have a wider field of attack again, do much less damage when standing still, and much more when at speed.

Generally.. this principle goes for most of the 1h vs 2h/polearm discussions too. Test it yourself. Grab a heavy stick with one hand, and hit something. Now grab it with 2 hands..

Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Skurcey on July 15, 2011, 12:02:15 am
OH BECAUSE STABBING THE AIR IS REAL FUCKING DIFFICULT.
OH GOD I STAB THE AIR, MY SPINEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

i can only LOL plus he looks so drunk
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Soldier_of_God on July 15, 2011, 08:31:41 am
Even though i hate horse archers, as they are the lowest of the low in mount and blade since they are literally the most unskilled class of ingrates ever to disgrace a game, it is very feasable to shoot a bow 85 degrees on your aiming side. about 35 for your odd side as well; it really balances out in the long run since HA's arent accurate, and dont do alot of damage either.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Vibe on July 15, 2011, 08:48:59 am
Yes, not from reality perspective, but from balance.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Skurcey on July 15, 2011, 11:41:02 am
HA

+high mobility
+can shoot cavalery's horses pretty easily

-less powerfull that every other build
-low armor
-no shield
-can't aim on right like crossbow or  thrower
 -use at least 8 skill points more than a pure class of something (exept heavy cav)
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: justme on July 15, 2011, 11:46:19 am
it would be good if HA have some penalty, more they turn more inaccurate they are...
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Wookimonsta on July 15, 2011, 01:49:40 pm
holy shit? this thread is still going on?
damn guys, let a troll thread die in peace.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Bulzur on July 15, 2011, 03:27:49 pm
HA

+high mobility
+can shoot cavalery's horses pretty easily

-less powerfull that every other build
-low armor
-no shield
-can't aim on right like crossbow or  thrower
 -use at least 8 skill points more than a pure class of something (exept heavy cav)

And now, let's compare that to a foot archer :

-no mobility
-can only shoot horses in close range
-die if there's two cav wanting to kill him
-no shield
-can be bumped to death
-need awareness, looking behind and sideways every 5sec (paranoia ? No, awareness)
-need as much dedicated skill points as an HA (example below)
-deel nearly as much damage as an HA (example below)

+can go on a roof


lv30 foot archer
(click to show/hide)


lv30 horse archer
(click to show/hide)

Just have the foot archer use bodkin arrows (for +4 pierce damage), and a melee weapon (to block down when lancers come), and the horse archer use a desert horse, no melee weapon (can pick them on the ground easily, whenever he feels like it) and barbed arrows. Same armor. Same equipment price. Same repair cost, since arrows break more often. Same strength ? No. Ha stronger.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Lichen on July 15, 2011, 07:47:53 pm
Lol, enough with bs about ppl not able to hit wider than 40 degree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkXMkJ1rBhg

Those are 'drills' on a stationary horse. IRL 'thrusting' with a lance (and trying to keep and hold on to it) from a moving horse would probably not turn out well.

But really people who want to decrease HA firing angle range.....come on. As if they are so dominating? lol.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Lordark on July 15, 2011, 07:59:00 pm
If you got hate in your heart let it out...

Cav power...
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Overdriven on July 15, 2011, 08:22:26 pm
No. For a few simple reasons.

- HA can't engage inf head on and stand a chance. Seeing as you don't even have a lance, you will get your horse insta kill lolstabbed every single time you try and shoot someone
- Melee can jump about every where. HA are best either shooting horsemen, or shooting big groups of inf on fly bys. If you stop to shoot 1 guy, you will waste a lot at a bunny hopping person and with a degree angle nerf, it would be impossible. And with that nerf it would be impossible to do fly bys in inf. You'd have to charge straight into them.
- Horses go down to 2 arrows now. 3 if lucky. That's already a pain in the arse for an HA who has no melee wpf e.g. any decent HA. With a degree angle nerf, you wouldn't be able to shoot the archers who are shooting you. And would just have to horse bump them over and over and over and over in order to shoot them, rather than at least try and circle them. Yeah how does that sound archers?
- HA are designed to take on lancers, it's what they are best at. So unfortunately, if you get an HA on your arse, then you're gonna have to switch to 1h, shield.
- Lancers were nerfed to hard. Don't nerf HA, buff lancers
- Archery nerf hit HA as well. It's harder to get kills now unless you are very good. You have to get in very close, because of the arrow drop, to actually stand a chance of hitting someone at speed. Less close now they fixed accuracy a bit, but still close.
 

Just have the foot archer use bodkin arrows (for +4 pierce damage), and a melee weapon (to block down when lancers come), and the horse archer use a desert horse, no melee weapon (can pick them on the ground easily, whenever he feels like it) and barbed arrows. Same armor. Same equipment price. Same repair cost, since arrows break more often. Same strength ? No. Ha stronger.
HA has to pay for his horse Bulzur (frikkin expensive if you want a decent on). And put extra points in HA which requires more agi. So  they should probably have an advantage over foot archers. Though we all know archers got nerfed. If they were fixed perhaps you wouldn't have such a hard time shooting horses. Though I still find it easy enough when I'm on the ground and honestly can't see a real basis for an argument from that pov, considering you can down horses faster now.

Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Wookimonsta on July 15, 2011, 09:12:54 pm
wow, i already said this was a troll thread, seems reading is not really anyone strong suit here
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Felix on July 15, 2011, 11:05:41 pm
Hush :D Nobody cares, ppl just want to spam and increase their e-p size.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Fartface on July 17, 2011, 09:22:44 pm
you do know that the mongols in real life were able to just turn 180 degrees aswel, it wouldnt make any fuckin sence to do that to HA , i got an agi build i hate HA with all my gfdgf ,but this are the kinda suggestions that are gonna fuck cRPG up,i think that you just got killedf by HA and raged so..comeone
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Remy on July 17, 2011, 10:58:51 pm
you do know that the mongols in real life were able to just turn 180 degrees aswel
O.o

So we really need a buff?  :P

*Do not take this post seriously.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Patricia on July 17, 2011, 11:39:11 pm
O.o

So we really need a buff?  :P

*Do not take this post seriously.


He wasn't asking for a buff, just providing a counter-argument to the stupidity of the suggestion of this thread.
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: Remy on July 18, 2011, 12:12:54 am
*Do not take this post seriously.

I tried, I really did.  :wink:
Title: Re: Horse Archers get 40 Degrees of turn as well
Post by: KING_UGBERT on July 18, 2011, 11:50:15 pm
I vote melee characters get 40 Degree turning radius to match the recent nerf to lancers.  Also, melee gets reduced weapon speed and their weapon length is to be halved, like archers.  They can't attack from the sides anymore, so only up and thrust attacks to match the lancer nerf.  Oh, and melee must stop to have accuracy while swinging now, like HA.  And their weapons break often like archer arrows.