cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Jayne_Cobbb on July 12, 2011, 07:19:32 pm
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So. I got on last night, and was surprised to shoot my own foot with my strong bow, while aiming 45 degrees up...
The Missile speed is SO slow. It stupid. I know everyone likes to bitch and complain about archery, but it already sucked. And now it is only viable at extreme close range, and then it is a fail because we can't go through armor, so we hit once, twice, or three times, then we get one hit by a two hand spammer. When I turn to run, to maybe get a fourth or fifth shot (to maybe almost kill a 2 hander tin can), people ridicule me and call me a delayer. That is the only way Archers can get kills one on one now.
Now we can't ever try to shoot ast people far away. We have to leed them like 10 feet at 40 paces. So stupid. Please just take archery back to a week ago. We still did nought for damage, but at least we we could hit people, and have a small chance.
Fister_Sister
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Good thing we got another topic for this, as the other ones are full already.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk
Dont forget the arrows can be aimed through gaps :P
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Honestly though. If you see a rampaging plater wading through a fight to get at the archer, no one really thinks
"What did Legolas do at the Battle of Helms Deep."
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk
"150 miles per hour" :rolleyes:
Your video proves his point, that arrows are absurdly slow.
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Honestly though. If you see a rampaging plater wading through a fight to get at the archer, no one really thinks
"What did Legolas do at the Battle of Helms Deep."
Just need some wooden pikes in the ground, and poopoof you feel safe
Howard Hill killed 3 elephants with his bow and special arrows shooting the heart.
And well, if you want to be immortal and unkillable, go solo, that will fix it xD
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"150 miles per hour" :rolleyes:
Your video proves his point, that arrows are absurdly slow.
lol Does it say that ? Damn. I ought to turn the sound on.
But what I'm saying is that arrows don't go through plate easily.
I agree that arrows should be devastating to anything NOT designed to take them, but there are armors and builds that are designed to counter archers.
In fact, my in game build and armor is designed specifically for counter-archery and scare tactics without a shield.
As for the speed, I think it's alright. It look like it's going well over 150mph to me.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk
The first comment made me lawl.
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I don't know the speed thing exactly, but as of the last patch I don't even bother to shoot at anything over about 30-40 yards because by then I'm just lobbing an arrow at someone that won't still be there when the arrow gets there anyway and it seems to be a waste of an arrow. Also, shooting at defending archers from below the walls is now nearly impossible. It's great on defense because you can just drop arrows on people without fear of retribution, but on offense you have to try to lob the arrow ABOVE the defending archer and have it fall down on them in order to score a hit. Otherwise you just end up dropping into the wall.
I'm still not sure why arrow speed was reduced so drastically (or even adjusted at all). Archers were already very minimal on most servers and only the REALLY good ones had any sort of impact in a battle. A longbow should not fire an arrow slower than a light crossbow. It should be about mid-range for a crossbow (maybe 50 missle speed). I have been using a strong/horn bow and may have to switch to longbow just in the hopes of being able to fire UPWARD at a defender on a wall.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk
Same show different Episode: The Long bow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnPcyGjYZmc
This whole episode is really cool and I suggest that anyone who is interested medieval archery and general tactics check it out. Plus it has a great quote at the end in regards to the Battle of Crecy:
"It's a great shame so many French noblemen had been killed or brought down by men of no value." (IE archers)
-French Grand Conic
700 years later the 2 handers continue the French perspective. Too bad for the French, they didn't have chadz on their side to change the physics of the world.
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Game wise, it seems that a longbow strike should be able to puncture armour at close range. Currently this is not the case.
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I'm still not sure why arrow speed was reduced so drastically (or even adjusted at all).
Developer who plays xbow had penis envy and successfully argued that a hybrid sidearm weapon should be superior to a dedicated ranged player.
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I'm kicking ass on my archer, maybe you should try aiming higher, you know like a real bow, it's not a 50 cal anymore, deal with it.
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I'm kicking ass on my archer, maybe you should try aiming higher, you know like a real bow, it's not a 50 cal anymore, deal with it.
Stop shooting peasants and try shooting anyone in plate.
I'm not having a problem hitting. It's easy to account for the new arc(although it is comically retarded). The problem is that missile velocity has decreased which drops the damage done by the shot. It took me and my archer cohorts 11 arrows to drop a tin can at med-short range yesterday. That's just silly.
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I'm kicking ass on my archer, maybe you should try aiming higher, you know like a real bow, it's not a 50 cal anymore, deal with it.
Out of Idle curiosity, name of archer character?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk
nice video, now compare what an arrow from a good bow does to a naked/leather armored/13th century non "specially hardened and toughened armor" with what arrows do in cRPG. Even if someone survives a blow through their body, they won't be back in that battle doing a Boromir on their enemies like nothing happened.
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"150 miles per hour" :rolleyes:
Your video proves his point, that arrows are absurdly slow.
What the f...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnPcyGjYZmc&feature=related
He clearly states(1:20) that the arrow starts at 52 m/s or 171 fps (117 mph) when using ungabunga units. In crpg the longbow starts (minimum PD) at 60 m/s or 200 fps(136 mph). The guy in the video is said to be an expert archer using a high end 150 pound longbow.
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using ungabunga units
:lol:
btw, 52 (meters a second) = 116.320687 mph
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What the f...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnPcyGjYZmc&feature=related
He clearly states(1:20) that the arrow starts at 52 m/s or 171 fps (117 mph) when using ungabunga units. In crpg the longbow starts (minimum PD) at 60 m/s or 200 fps(136 mph). The guy in the video is said to be an expert archer using a high end 150 pound longbow.
If you're going to keep using that documentary as a source for missile speed, you might also consider the part where he says Longbows could shoot "more than twice as far" as crossbows.
--> http://youtu.be/85CcSgnDgPo?t=1m23s <--
That implies crossbows had far lower missile speed than bows (at least in a universe where all arrows/bolts have the same flight physics).
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Ok, in the other video they say that they use 140 mph which is just above the 60 m/s we use(minimum PD, mundane longbow). Fine to me. And we don't set the starting velocities because of that video. We did some research about experiments being done and used historical sources. 60 m/s is a good value in my opinion when using battle arrows.
I also don't think the long bows can go much faster even with lighter(flight) arrows. It the nature of the bow being a one material bow with a limited "spring speed". I see the natural border at 70 or 80 m/s. It is a bit hard to explain but it doesn't behave like a ideal spring with F = m*a = D * s where the final speed after the acceleration can be increased endlessly with raising the spring constant or draw lengh(D, s) or lowering arrow mass(m). At some point the wood can't go faster and even a lighter arrow would have the same starting speed as a heavier one (and the bow thus loses efficiency). So the only thing a very high draw weight(>150 pond) longbow can do better than one of those in the "sweetspot" draw weight of 130-140 pound is accelerating heavier arrows (pretty important to penetrate armor) close to the bows max speed.
Composite or even steel bows(xbow) are different. Here the max spring speed seems to be alot higher allowing to achieve very high starting velocity(and thus high range) with special light flight arrows. So with special arrows those turkish composite bow can achieve 250fps++ easily. However with battle arrows that need some weight to be useful against armor they are back at equal ground with the longbow I think with the draw weight and thus human strength as a limiter.
At the moment we can't use different arrow types that have their own starting velocity/friction simulating heavy battle, lighter flight arrowsand maybe with some kind of hybrids in between. Without WSE it's battle arrows for everyone.
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Aaawww, poor little archers things, my soul weeps for you and my heart is broken......
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It implies that arrows performed alot better aerodynamically. In the future with WSE I'd give bows a lower friction value than crossbows. I agree though that the 1 slot crossbows have a too high starting speed. The ones with the steel bow(2 slot) are fine in my opinion.
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Fister_Sister
Fallen archers have my respect, shooting me off my horse is a death full of agony and honor.
I can't really tell if the archers are actually buffed or nerfed, since I don't notice taking great damage from cut bow users (Longbow/Xbow/Throw still hurts, a lot)
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It is much harder. Just hitting people with the slow speed is hard. Also, the Heirlooms do not help any more (not really), so +3 bows are not really worth it.
The damage is not changed too much, but i have noticed that vs high armor I never get kills unless I head shot.
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It implies that arrows performed alot better aerodynamically. In the future with WSE I'd give bows a lower friction value than crossbows. I agree though that the 1 slot crossbows have a too high starting speed. The ones with the steel bow(2 slot) are fine in my opinion.
I don't disagree that aerodynamics could be a significant reason, but as mentioned, in the Warband universe all missiles have the same physics. The way the Warband engine handles this is by giving crossbows higher damage (representing a potentially higher muzzle speed and more devastating missile) and low missile speed (representing worse aerodynamics, causing them to drop faster). Bows on the other hand get reduced damage and a high missile speed, giving them a longer trajectory but causing less damage once they hit.
Now, for some reason, bows in cRPG have less damage and a shorter trajectory. It doesn't make sense from a game balance point of view, nor from a realism point of view (which I think we should just ignore, but still).
If you were worried about Strategus, I would have done this: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,10317.0.html
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on plain battle fields. i laugh at the arrows coming at me and dodge em. like at the end of this video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bFTw95pJp8
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Why is there such a hard on for realism with archery in regards to velocity? Who gives a fuck? I feel pretty bad for archers, the arrows are so slow dodging arrow fire is a complete joke now. It was even easy before but now I barley have to zig zag at all.
Literally nothing else in the game is balanced around what is realistic, just basic reality, IE armor adds weight and increases protection.
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Literally nothing else in the game is balanced around what is realistic, just basic reality, IE armor adds weight and increases protection.
And being unable to sheathe a pike in your ass magically.
Carrying a flamberge, katana, shield, great maul all at once.
etc
But yup, literally nothing else is balanced around what's realistic.....
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On the bright side. One bonus to the new arrow speed is that when I get shot at by another archer I can go outside have a smoke, come back in then dodge.
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On the bright side. One bonus to the new arrow speed is that when I get shot at by another archer I can go outside have a smoke, come back in then dodge.
I tend to go get a bite to eat, but to each their own. Of course sometimes I come back and find a couple javelins and bolts in me, but if I am still alive I can usually go kill the archer with my sword so at least I can have a positive k/d.
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One good thing though is that we can indirect fire at least. Managed to in the twin bridge over a river map, lob 30+ arrows over and actually kill 3 people (one by headshot) and wound a few more, all the while hiding at the steps. Pretty amusing...
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On the bright side. One bonus to the new arrow speed is that when I get shot at by another archer I can go outside have a smoke, come back in then dodge.
I close my eyes then randomly spin in a circle, most of the time I escape unscathed.
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So I created a skip the fun alt with 9 powerdraw and 138 wpf in archery to see how effective that might be in counteracting this massive nerf. There is so little skill involved, its much more oh I got lucky that time and it sank to the ground near enough to hit an enemy (for anything over 10 feet away). You could still have gotten a lob effect with 45 shoot speed but without the complete uselessness its become. At elast throwers have ammo with GIGANTIC hitboxes that don't require pinpoint accuracy to hit something as the ammo itself is 10x the size of an arrow and counts for full damage no matter which part of the axe/javelin/lance hits the enemy (just watch where you have a random axe handle sticking out of your hitbox in midair above your shoulder with the blade even higher, yet receive full damage).
Yes, I used nomad, strong, and long bow (doesn't make much difference as they all are within 2 shoot speeds of each other) and the damage was decent but the accuracy was highly marginal for anything above a ten foot radius mostly because of the massive unpredictable dropoff of the arrows. Why not just raise shoot speed by 10 (so only a 15% decrease from before) but reduce damage by 3-4 for each bow (same effect as the -10 shoot speed) and return skill to archery, the kind of skill that is enjoyable and fun without taking away the fun of enemies you interact with (unless they require themselves to be immune to all attacks to have fun).