cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Shpongled on July 12, 2011, 01:53:15 am

Title: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Shpongled on July 12, 2011, 01:53:15 am
I don't generally join the whole whine-train as I have a lot of faith in the devs. This, however, is silly.

The nerf to lance range has, finally, turned cav into a class that can only kill unaware people. With old lance ranges, it was possibly to 1v1 against infantry and even pikes with very good awareness, precision timing and baiting mind-games.

This is a lot of fun. Often it failed and I died, but often enough it worked and I won because of my deftness in control of my horse. As far as I understand, a 'class' in a game has certain abilities/strengths that, when used correctly and with some imagination, allow them to overcome the abilities of other 'classes'.

That is now gone. Cavalry now exist only to kill other cav, stab unaware infantry and get shot down by archers. It is now hardcoded that we are hard-countered by 90% of aware players.

Why?

I don't understand.

You tried this before, then took it away. I was glad, because it destroyed my class.

Why now?

I've been training myself to use the heavy lance for 9 generations. All of that is now for nothing. That's no exaggeration.

This nerf has totally changed how cav play and obsoleted 80% of the skill involved in the class.

Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Shpongled on July 12, 2011, 01:54:32 am
Also given how much time I spent on the voice pack, I would really, really appreciate a dev taking 5 mins to outline the reasons for this change.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Olwen on July 12, 2011, 02:00:44 am
ed, play on foot for sometimes, then tell me cav is underpowered
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Shpongled on July 12, 2011, 02:02:12 am
ahem.......

Gen 8 2h/xbow, 5 gens on an archer.......
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Inhumanetie on July 12, 2011, 02:07:01 am
Yea i agree my cav guy sucks now i just use him as Inf which is a shame coz i just got him a champion arab horse :(

But also i have a feeling they will change back coz there will just be millions of HA's coz Lance cav seemed pretty uneffective right now.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Shpongled on July 12, 2011, 02:08:47 am
and my horse costs 50% more to repair.

that's just a total slap in the face.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: [ptx] on July 12, 2011, 02:09:04 am
It ain't that bad. At least i can lance you now :D
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on July 12, 2011, 02:12:25 am
I love it when other classes get nerfed instead of my class! LOVE IT, on another note, my archer got nerfed :( i also whined  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: TheMadMan on July 12, 2011, 02:14:32 am
Don't feel too bad bro, us shielders just got nerfed as well :(
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Olwen on July 12, 2011, 02:16:40 am
Quote from: RagnarLodbroke on July 12, 2011, 02:12:25 am
I love it when other classes get nerfed instead of my class! LOVE IT, on another note, my archer got buffed :) i also whined  :rolleyes:

fixed
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on July 12, 2011, 02:18:06 am
Quote from: Olwen on July 12, 2011, 02:16:40 am
fixed
LIES i lost 1 Cut dmg!!
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Olwen on July 12, 2011, 02:21:41 am
you got accuracy, it's worst, it's no more archery but snipery, it's easier to dodge arrows than to block it with shield
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Banok on July 12, 2011, 02:59:49 am
there was no skill in it before, tbh your just poked from a certain angle and won vs anything but a pike.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Patricia on July 12, 2011, 03:16:19 am
Bawwwww, Calvary finally requires skills! I AM OUTRAGED, WHY DID YOU MAKE THIS SKILLESS CLASS INTO A CLASS THAT TAKES SKILLS?
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Shpongled on July 12, 2011, 03:58:25 am
Quote from: Banok on July 12, 2011, 02:59:49 am
there was no skill in it before, tbh your just poked from a certain angle and won vs anything but a pike.

'just poked from a certain angle'

'just aimed at a certain place'

'just parried in the right direction'

Skill, no?
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: SoA_Sir_ODHarry on July 12, 2011, 04:14:09 am
why not make the angel too 50-60
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: MadScientist22 on July 12, 2011, 04:21:43 am
If Cav took no skill, why is it that certain Cavalry consistently do better than others? There has to be at least a minimal level of skill involved for there to be any consistent discrepancy. Shpongled for example, out lances me more than 90% of the time. So does Tankmen. On the other hand, I out lance pretty much everyone else in my clan and most cavalry except for a few dedicated ones.

While I took advantage of unaware infantry, I relished taking down those who saw me coming much much more. Even more, I absolutely loved taking down those infantry who faked being unaware (which is why good horsemen don't immediately couch at seeing an 'afk' player but hold lance till the last moment). That is what kept me playing cRPG even after Strategus got taken down.Now, all any infantry has to do is jump and swing and I can't reach him but he can reach me. Cavalry has been forcibly pigeon-holed into being skillless backstabbers that we have always been accused of.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: KING_UGBERT on July 12, 2011, 04:50:06 am
Horsemen took a blow this patch like never before.  They should rename Mount and Blade:Warband to just Blade:Warband.  I feel for you guys.  Horse archers stopping to shoot, lancers having to rush in to their deaths... 
High tier archers also suffer from a huge drop in range.  I feel like I'm shooting a slingshot instead of a longbow. It really detracts from the fun.
I have to wonder what the devs were thinking too.  Have they said why the changes were implemented?  I'm only glad they made throwing half feasible again.  Although throwing lances again get no love, and take 7 PT.
Your light maneuverable horses are also nerfed terribly and are slower and less easy to handle.  Very disappointing changes to a previously fun and balanced game.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: DrTaco on July 12, 2011, 05:00:35 am
Quote from: MadScientist22 on July 12, 2011, 04:21:43 am
If Cav took no skill, why is it that certain Cavalry consistently do better than others?

Cav took no skill

took no skill

no skill

"Should I charge at the 2h spammer that is staring at me, or challenge the other cav that is wreaking havoc among my teamates?"

You charge, just to pad your K/D, and instead you head gets lopped off.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: KingKessler on July 12, 2011, 05:10:53 am
man dismount from your horse - cav guys are the only ones who constantly rule the servers with scores like 20-30 to 5. archers, 2h, 1h/shield have to do hard and dangerous work for their score.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Scrat on July 12, 2011, 05:12:02 am
Quote from: DrTaco on July 12, 2011, 05:00:35 am
Cav took no skill

took no skill

no skill

"Should I charge at the 2h spammer that is staring at me, or challenge the other cav that is wreaking havoc among my teamates?"

You charge, just to pad your K/D, and instead you head gets lopped off.

I never gave two shits about my K/D. I used to always take out the highest priority targets, now I have to settle for the weak, the unaware and the injured stragglers.

I used to be a Lion, now I'm a hyena.

lol
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Trikipum on July 12, 2011, 06:07:02 am
Quote from: Scrat on July 12, 2011, 05:12:02 am
I never gave two shits about my K/D. I used to always take out the highest priority targets, now I have to settle for the weak, the unaware and the injured stragglers.

I used to be a Lion, now I'm a hyena.

lol
Same here, being relegated to peasant killers and backstabbers removes all the skill involved. The horse combat is the best mechanic ingame... now its not even half fun as it was before...
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Rumblood on July 12, 2011, 06:12:27 am
All of you settling for the weak? Guess what? It's because you never actually had any cavalry skill.

Now go l2p  :idea:
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: PieParadox on July 12, 2011, 06:50:37 am
Wonder how cav will be now in strat...
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Lord_Panos on July 12, 2011, 06:58:31 am
Quote from: Inhumanetie on July 12, 2011, 02:07:01 am
Yea i agree my cav guy sucks now i just use him as Inf which is a shame coz i just got him a champion arab horse :(

But also i have a feeling they will change back coz there will just be millions of HA's coz Lance cav seemed pretty uneffective right now.


i like the part when u said coz.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Sultan_Saladin on July 12, 2011, 07:00:31 am
It does make sense to an extent that cav is not only lance/bow. Now you can use 1h or 2h weapons as well against other cav.  Before it was only lances.  Lances are great if your in a line charge or tournament, however it most practical purposes for skirmishing, the spear, sword and bow were mostly used. Most of the battles we do are skirmishes, we don't have line battles unless we are in Strategus.  There you go, there is my 2 cents.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Reinhardt on July 12, 2011, 07:03:12 am
With all due respect, Spongled, I must disagree, but only on some points.

Firstly, cav was nerfed, directly and indirectly:
1) Lance radius
2) Horse HP (AFAIK)
3) More projectiles
4) Buffed projectiles


Cav was buffed in the following ways:
1) Lance is faster
2) HA nerf

That's about it. Although annoying to not be able to take out pikes from horseback, it's still possible to get a good score. I was 14;1, then 18;3 on the NA server as cav just a few minutes ago. However not a "blow you out of the water" score, it's still possible to do exceptionally well as cav, if you play it right. But As far as the lance radius, give it back to us. I think it's fair. People can dodge us too easily now. And with the increase in projectiles... I think we should be allowed to take out some of them.


EDIT: Repair costs = bullshit for everyone. Give 'em back please. :D
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: PhantomZero on July 12, 2011, 07:24:42 am
Quote from: Reinhardt on July 12, 2011, 07:03:12 am
With all due respect, Spongled, I must disagree, but only on some points.

Firstly, cav was nerfed, directly and indirectly:
1) Lance radius
2) Horse HP (AFAIK)
3) More projectiles
4) Buffed projectiles


Cav was buffed in the following ways:
1) Lance is faster
2) HA nerf

EDIT: Repair costs = bullshit for everyone. Give 'em back please. :D

You miss that the heavy lance now costs 10k. In addition to increased horse prices.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Duster on July 12, 2011, 08:08:30 am
Quote from: Reinhardt on July 12, 2011, 07:03:12 am
With all due respect, Spongled, I must disagree, but only on some points.

Firstly, cav was nerfed, directly and indirectly:
1) Lance radius
2) Horse HP (AFAIK)
3) More projectiles
4) Buffed projectiles


Cav was buffed in the following ways:
1) Lance is faster
2) HA nerf

That's about it. Although annoying to not be able to take out pikes from horseback, it's still possible to get a good score. I was 14;1, then 18;3 on the NA server as cav just a few minutes ago. However not a "blow you out of the water" score, it's still possible to do exceptionally well as cav, if you play it right. But As far as the lance radius, give it back to us. I think it's fair. People can dodge us too easily now. And with the increase in projectiles... I think we should be allowed to take out some of them.


EDIT: Repair costs = bullshit for everyone. Give 'em back please. :D

You're missing the point. Shpong isn't about getting tons of peasant kills, he wants to make skilled kills and take out key players. Lance cav has been relegated to a boring, skilless dance of monotony. 90% of the skill I've learned with the heavy lance are now null and void in crpg, and that's damn upsetting.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Diesel on July 12, 2011, 09:21:12 am
Very disappointing indeed...  :?
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: chadz on July 12, 2011, 09:36:54 am
I think the reason was to increase 1h cav and make cav lancing more skill based and less yoga based.

Or so I've heard.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Miralay on July 12, 2011, 10:40:56 am
1h cav is only a class which can kill unaware enemies, nothing else. when a 2h'er notice you they can use thrust to kill 1h/2h cav players.

we were able to kill aggressive 2h players with lances but it is taken from us nown

i also like to add something new to this discussion: while all ha cried we move-stop-shoot bla bla, after hotfix i see no such thing. instead i tested if i can do any good against ha with my heavy lance and result is a TOTAL failure.

ha can easily get past me from my left or right and while he does it, all i can do is thrusting empty air in front me and probably looking very retarded. if you're not ranged class player, lancers were your only chance to chase ha and push them to make a mistake but now you disabled it :(

so in a different view, ha got an ultimate buff..

ps: i'm not talking about 1,3k courser upkeep - shocked  :o
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: SkyrayFox on July 12, 2011, 11:26:58 am
Quote from: Miralay on July 12, 2011, 10:40:56 am
1h cav is only a class which can kill unaware enemies, nothing else. when a 2h'er notice you they can use thrust to kill 1h/2h cav players.

 :shock:

Looks like I'm special.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Miralay on July 12, 2011, 11:29:19 am
yes you're.. you're the only person i see going on with full heavy gear which consist of 1plated charger, 1tincan armor and your sword and shield.

i don't know how you find gold to support your war expenses but you're not representing whole cavalry class, that's for sure
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Ujin on July 12, 2011, 11:40:54 am
Thew new lancing  has very little to do with skill and more to do with picking your targets carefully and, like mentioned before, backstabbing. The most fun aspect of lancing (for me at least) - cav vs cav fights, is now degraded and is pretty much not interesting for a lancer.

Skill is the last word i'd use in the same sentence when talking about the new lancing system. It is acceptable, but you've taken 3/4 of the fun from a whole class.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: [ptx] on July 12, 2011, 12:21:32 pm
I personally find cav to cav fights more interesting now, actually, since movement matters a lot more than it did before and it is no longer only about timing your lance thrust. Also, you should ask Tommyyy, how he deals with this nerf ;)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Ujin on July 12, 2011, 12:38:42 pm
I don't have problems  "dealing" with this nerf either, it's not that hard to adjust to. It's just not as fun (specially when it comes to cav vs cav) anymore, that's what i'm saying.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Felix on July 12, 2011, 01:31:52 pm
True. No more fun. Prepatch it was like a beautiful dance. Now it's chaaarge - miss - turn - chaaarge - miss...

Quote from: chadz on July 12, 2011, 09:36:54 am
I think the reason was to increase 1h cav and make cav lancing more skill based and less yoga based.

Or so I've heard.

I think your dev team failed to do so. Not that i am whining, it's really not that hard to adjust, but the cav gameplay has become poor and straight.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Memento_Mori on July 12, 2011, 03:17:54 pm
Nah, cav just need to shape up.

Lots of decent cav players still topping the boards all the crappy ones are just wasting cash on upkeep and repairs.
point being, if cav is no fun for you now I guess you better change classes or wait & whine until they 'fix' it for you.



death to the helicopter lancers, and good riddance.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: PhantomZero on July 12, 2011, 03:37:18 pm
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Cav didn't really get nerfed, cav's ability to deal with other cav has been nerfed. It isn't really skill, but more about timing now, since head to head cav duels are going to be the norm, the heavy lance will become even more popular despite the increase in cost. Light and Regular lances will be forced to catch other cav unaware, from the sides, rear is too easy to dodge and won't do enough damage.

Cav can still run over infantry same as before.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Kafein on July 12, 2011, 03:46:26 pm
Quote from: chadz on July 12, 2011, 09:36:54 am
I think the reason was to increase 1h cav and make cav lancing more skill based and less yoga based.

Or so I've heard.

THIS

You guys seriously never heard of 1h cav or something ?

Furthermore, the ability to attack inf didn't really changed. Cav was already all about catching unaware people.

Quote from: Felix on July 12, 2011, 01:31:52 pm
True. No more fun. Prepatch it was like a beautiful dance. Now it's chaaarge - miss - turn - chaaarge - miss...

I think your dev team failed to do so. Not that i am whining, it's really not that hard to adjust, but the cav gameplay has become poor and straight.


You make me laugh, "beautiful dance" my ass... It was just all about "I have one more maneuver than you therefore I win". If you can't manage to have a real combat, not some ages long 3yo dispute, I guess you should just change class, hmm ? Now lance duels are what they are supposed to be. One hit, one mistake, all about perfect timing. This is more interesting than spending hours turning around each other.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Lord_Panos on July 12, 2011, 04:13:44 pm
Quote from: SkyrayFox on July 12, 2011, 11:26:58 am
:shock:

Looks like I'm retarded.

 :twisted:
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Felix on July 12, 2011, 04:16:31 pm
Lol. I guess those lancers being happy are those who couldn't manage pre-patch cav battles cause they were noobs. Well, nice for you. Now the cav battle was simplified - you may get some kills as well  :wink: (in cav vs cav battles)

Timing? Real combat? Lol. Wake up bud. Cav battles now look more like a 80-years old granny fight. Fuck, it's more like a stop motion now.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Assarhaddon on July 12, 2011, 04:28:31 pm
Quote
Posted by: chadz
« on: Today at 06:36:54 »

    Insert Quote


I think the reason was to increase 1h cav and make cav lancing more skill based and less yoga based.

But we need our yoga hours.
Without em we turn into stiff old men.. (not the good kind stiff)
 :lol:
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Rannepear on July 12, 2011, 04:31:36 pm
Quote from: Reinhardt on July 12, 2011, 07:03:12 am
Cav was buffed in the following ways:
1) Lance is faster

The faster lance is actually not a buff. Somehow, with it being faster, it lowers the damage potential of the lance. Maybe you have a MW heavy lance, but I used to be able to 1 hit most archers and now I have to hit them at least twice.

Really the 40 degree angle thing doesnt bother me at all...It's the damage decrease. Though this is slightly compensated by my charge boost.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Bulzur on July 12, 2011, 04:43:12 pm
40° is a bit harsh. Make it 50°, so that lance cav can at least have decent chances vs aware 1h/shield. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Shpongled on July 12, 2011, 05:33:17 pm
Quote from: chadz on July 12, 2011, 09:36:54 am
I think the reason was to increase 1h cav and make cav lancing more skill based and less yoga based.

Or so I've heard.

Thanks for the reply!

Well it certainly has increased 1h cav feasibility... Now when one catches up to me when I'm reared I can't even turn enough to try and parry his attacks.

having had a chance to play lancer some more, I am slightly reassured and yet distressed at the same time. On the one hand I grant that maybe the full spine-twisting arc was a bit op. If I was on the ball, someone with a shorter weapon really didn't stand a chance. However, this has now been reversed.

A wider angle would make it a lot tighter between lancers and 2h/pole and give us back the advantage over shielders that we deserve.

A further aspect to this nerf is that on an attack run we lancers are confined to a much more restricted trajectory, and are much easier to predict for the ranged we are charging as well as his crowd of ranged buddies, all of whom seem to have a fetish involving horse heads and long pointy objects that fly through the air.

I stand by what I said though. With horse control as a given, the major skill involved in lancing was juggling horse attack run trajectory, lance thrust arc and lance length. We now have less control, as we are forced into a very specific route. Fewer options = restricted skillset.

80% of my kills before were outside the 40 degree window.
 
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Seawied on July 12, 2011, 08:08:10 pm
I think the change was a step in the right direction, but 40 degrees feels a tad limiting. I think a 50-60 degree limitation would be balanced.

I've actually been getting more kills on my lancer lately. This is most likely because people have been lulled into a false sense of security. Lancers are still viable in the current patch, and I think the vast majority of fellow lancers are making liberal use of hyperbole about the destruction of the class.

Give the patch a shot, and adjust to the new patch. Many of you are quite skilled players and I would not be surprised to see you topping the scoreboards again after you adapt.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Fandrall on July 12, 2011, 08:10:53 pm
Give the lancers their attack width back! Its so boring now... Its pretty much dodge first attack, turn, ride behind/beside and pew pew pew the horse down.

Furthermore you guys who thinks lancefighting was like jousting need to study other history than frankish. I bet the frensh knights (Kafein) whined about the agility and attack angles of the middle eastern and eastern cavalry too. I mean how dared they use lighter more agile horses and where's the honor in stabbing or even slashing to the sides with lances! but enough about history...

I say a balanced compromize would be great lance=longer reach and more dmg but narrow attack angle (like it is now for, this is for those who like "western european style" of fighting). Light lance, lance and heavy lance (and all spears!)=shorter reach but wider attack angle when the horse is going at lower speed (like it was before, this is for those who likes "eastern style" of fighting). And before you start saying the heavy lance is to heavy to use in that fashion or its impossible to turn like that if you have a spine consider this:

1. If you stabb a horse that charges straight at you to death it will still hit you for massive damage.
2. Noone can sidestep, backpeddle and swing with full force without loosing balance.
3. A normal person jumps around 50 cm high wearing normal clothes not over 100 cm high in heavy armor while performing a slash/stabb.

If you want to make a medieval fight simulator of this mod that is fine... but then do it for all "classes" and not just for one.

PS: If really skilled lancer players like Torben, Chagan and Ujin (dont know any NA ones...sry) says that alot of the skill involved in the class has been taken away then I belive them. Oh and I wonder why Olwen started a thread about cav everywhere going at infantry http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,10219.msg147929.html#msg147929 (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,10219.msg147929.html#msg147929)... Maybe its so because lancers aint killing other cav off anymore.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on July 12, 2011, 08:11:18 pm
Waaaaggghhhhh

I cannot pull off super easy lancing kills any more

QQ

 :lol:

Now you will have to learn some skill like the 2h and 1h on horseback users.

Stop claiming cavalry is nerfed because lances are no longer OP. I am cav and I think this new patch is awesome. For me it is a double win because throwing is viable again too! Eat javelins you dirty lancers  :lol:

However I may have to refrain from my negative opinion of lancers from now on as fro what I hear it is no longer easy-mode. Welcome to the good fight  :wink:
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Ujin on July 12, 2011, 08:29:30 pm
Sigh
(click to show/hide)

It's still not that hard to get kills, but what we're trying to say is that this patch is actually a big hit on infantry, cause cav vs cav fights are either too boring or too risky now , so cav just ignore each other and attack infantry.
I'd suggest trying 50-60 degrees limit for lancers, might be reasonable enough to satisfy both sides .
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Trikipum on July 12, 2011, 10:16:55 pm
Quote from: Reinhardt on July 12, 2011, 07:03:12 am
With all due respect, Spongled, I must disagree, but only on some points.

Firstly, cav was nerfed, directly and indirectly:
1) Lance radius
2) Horse HP (AFAIK)
3) More projectiles
4) Buffed projectiles



Cav was buffed in the following ways:
1) Lance is faster
2) HA nerf

That's about it. Although annoying to not be able to take out pikes from horseback, it's still possible to get a good score. I was 14;1, then 18;3 on the NA server as cav just a few minutes ago. However not a "blow you out of the water" score, it's still possible to do exceptionally well as cav, if you play it right. But As far as the lance radius, give it back to us. I think it's fair. People can dodge us too easily now. And with the increase in projectiles... I think we should be allowed to take out some of them.


EDIT: Repair costs = bullshit for everyone. Give 'em back please. :D
actually, what you call "buff" in the lance is actually a nerf XD. The speed improvement only helps the guys with little wpf in polearms. Pure polearms with full wpf on it have a hard time timing their attacks. This causes less damage and less range in most of times, at least until they master it. But it will be hard since its so fast.... you will hit as you did before, but you will get much worse damage outputs.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Reinhardt on July 12, 2011, 10:23:51 pm
I forgot about the increase cost of being cav and the other nerfs.

But yes, cav is mostly about taking out unaware enemies... I've been cav for who knows how many generations, pretty much since I've started cRPG, which was almost since the beginning.

A faster lance, while decreasing the amount of time you have TO lance people effectively, increases the damage. The increase in cost for cavalry is complete bullshit anyway now, as even the 20k horse (courser) gets 2-shotted by even the new arrows.

But regardless, people have adapted to cavalry before, and the speed increase does give a higher damage output.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Trikipum on July 12, 2011, 10:29:05 pm
Quote from: Reinhardt on July 12, 2011, 10:23:51 pm
I forgot about the increase cost of being cav and the other nerfs.

But yes, cav is mostly about taking out unaware enemies... I've been cav for who knows how many generations, pretty much since I've started cRPG, which was almost since the beginning.

A faster lance, while decreasing the amount of time you have TO lance people effectively, increases the damage. The increase in cost for cavalry is complete bullshit anyway now, as even the 20k horse (courser) gets 2-shotted by even the new arrows.

But regardless, people have adapted to cavalry before, and the speed increase does give a higher damage output.
but the damage just doesnt take in account the speed of the weapon, also takes in account the moment where it hits, and you get worse damage when your lance its not released completly, which is much harder now, since its much faster, meaning you likely will get closer to release the thrust at high speed. I have noticed it even having a very poor wpf in polearms, its taking me 3 hits to kill a light guy, when it was 2 most of times before.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: [ptx] on July 12, 2011, 10:42:56 pm
Don't forget that the way armor works has been changed - this means that you are far less likely to kill in one hit with the lance.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on July 12, 2011, 10:53:51 pm
Even the courser gets killed in two hits by arrows?!?!?!

You mean the horse that is meant to sacrifice toughness for speed is not tough?!

Ye gods!
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Trikipum on July 12, 2011, 11:25:44 pm
Quote from: chadz on July 12, 2011, 09:36:54 am
I think the reason was to increase 1h cav and make cav lancing more skill based and less yoga based.

Or so I've heard.
chadz, im a cavalry 1h player who usually play on feet coz i cant afford playing with "decent stuff", not beeing farming much too lately but that is another history.

As a cavalry player, i always use to bring a lance with me, just feel natural (actually ive been using heavy lance with 1wpf and killing ppl, now i got 40 wpf) having a lance to show your teeth to other pure lancers, killing skilled ppl using couching, or agresive movements. Using angles to take other cavmen was also an option.
Ive played more on foot than in my horse lately and i though the balance was cool.

I actually have killed  many skilled cav men just using my slavona while they were using lances, and that was posible coz they took the challenge as i did. I was well aware of them, and while they had a clear advantage, knowing how it works also gives you some chances.
In the end i have killed many skilled cav men from the ground using just a slavona and a shield, that is not posible anymore, coz they just dont come if you are aware of them. Instead you get killed in any direction but face to face. That is the most annoying about cav kills in my opinion. And it it was 50%, now its 90%. On the other hand, in cluster fucks the cavalry still kills the cavalry, but when the numbers are small, its just too cheap, boring and lame. It can stall a game for minutes. Since if one of the cav man doesnt want to get killed, he wont aslong he has some skill. With the old system all was faster and much more deadly. Now a horse can follow another and the guy leading just wont try to turn against the enemy and try a side thrust to kill the pursuing  guy coz he has crystal hips, not like the HA who are 12yo flexible girls trained in the old soviet union. It just removes the fun of horses, makes a weird diferentiation between HA and lancer. Not just that the HA can turn freely his body, but that 2 horsemen cant kill a single HA playing as a team anymore. And that last part is the lamest of them all.Salute.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Game_Blouses on July 14, 2011, 12:19:11 am
I was going to post this before the patch but I'll post it here now.

I really think any class should have a counter-class for purposes of game balance.

The most obvious one for Cav is pike and pikemen. Their ability to kill your horse and you in one thrust if not stop you and your mount dead in your tracks was crazy dangerous and you had to use skill to defeat them or sneak up on them. 

However, the ability to stop your horse dead in its tracks has been extended to any polearm.  Should a shortened spear *really* be able to stop you? Let's say for argument sake this is fair because of the relatively few dedicated pikemen and the prevalence of horses.

However, what I was going to complain about before this patch is that fact that just about anything but an archer was able to slaughter our horse by sidestepping and performing a poke attack.  Two handed swordsmen could outright stop a charging horse and because of your speed this usually meant your horse died and you got dumped right by a spammer.

It felt like I was relegated to killing unskilled players, archers, or people I managed to sneak up on and of course, other Cav.

Now after the patch my horse (a course) apparently disintegrates if the enemy team looks at it.  The buff to archery and throwing, combined with the limitations of the lancing angle means that now anyone can easily kill my mount as I charge them leaving me dumped at their feet.

I really find that I have to sneak up on people and/or engage people already in melee.

On top of this we have to pay for ridiculously expensive mounts and their repairs.  This is an additional repair cost no other class (besides HA) has to juggle.

The problem I see with this is as previously mentioned this is a game not a medieval combat simulator.  If we are going to make it realistic, make it realistic across the board.  While it may be realistic that a peasant with a pike or a longbowman could punch through heavy armor and kill an armored knight on a horse, they usually did so behind set pikes.  People (throwers, archers, 2handers, etc.) should not be able to instantly stop a several hundred pound animal dead in its track with a simple poke.

I feel because of changes in patch, this is the ridiculous nature of what Lancing Cav has been reduced to.
(click to show/hide)


 

Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Devilize on July 14, 2011, 12:22:38 am
Quote from: chadz on July 12, 2011, 09:36:54 am
I think the reason was to increase 1h cav and make cav lancing more skill based and less yoga based.

Or so I've heard.

Spoken by someone who clearly has no understanding for cav.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Kafein on July 14, 2011, 02:28:22 am
I played a bit more and I got some elements to correct my views. First, the main goal was to promote 1h cav. It's successful as lance cav lost the reach advantage. But 1h cav is still really hard to play vs inf. That aspect didn't changed. It even got worse with the armor changes, but I will get back to that later. Now a 2h vs lance cav in optimal conditions (perfect timing of both, flat terrain, duel...) will see the 2h win. It's the same for many polearms, with a jumpslash. Yet it's no better for 1h cav. So this was a flat cav nerf, as 1h cav is still IMO worse than lance cav, except with unsustainable horses. To counter that nerf, reducing horse upkeep seems logical to me.


Now, about the armor changes. At first I thought it wouldn't really interfere with cav lancing. In fact it's not. Now about everyone I could onehit with a lance doesn't die from the first hit. And if you played cavalry you know you aren't that likely to hit someone twice. I guess it's the same for 1h cav, or maybe even worse due to the cut damage. This change also indirectly nerfed the mw bec I use. Not that I'm whining on that. I guess it was OP when I could reliably 2 shot medium armor people.


But about the lance cav, I think I'll change class if my opinion doesn't change for some reason. I seem to make like a tenth of the effect I did on the battlefield before the patch so I will probably stop with the horse and get an armor instead, it seems to me it's better for the amount of gold spent now. And I like being a pikeman or 1h footman too so I don't care about doing that lightly.
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Sultan_Khalifa on July 14, 2011, 02:59:16 am
Quote from: Kafein on July 12, 2011, 03:46:26 pm

THIS

You guys seriously never heard of 1h cav or something ?

Furthermore, the ability to attack inf didn't really changed. Cav was already all about catching unaware people.


You make me laugh, "beautiful dance" my ass... It was just all about "I have one more maneuver than you therefore I win". If you can't manage to have a real combat, not some ages long 3yo dispute, I guess you should just change class, hmm ? Now lance duels are what they are supposed to be. One hit, one mistake, all about perfect timing. This is more interesting than spending hours turning around each other.

Did u ever hear about I dont want to Fnnn play a 1hand Cav. if the mod team want more people to play 1hand CAV should Have BUFFED 1hand Cav not nerfed LanceCav. It was Nerfed before ohh we should Nerf it more... ehhh
Title: Re: No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?
Post by: Torben on July 14, 2011, 03:24:23 am
i rly dont get how everyone doesnt see that there was lots of 1h cav before this patch.  id say about 30% of cav was 1h.  but whatever.

and ya,  this patch made lancers more dangerouse to semi-skilled inf. and took a lot of fun out of the game for lancers.  and not because of the amount of kills,  but because of the challanges we could step up to.