cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Elmetiacos on July 11, 2011, 06:37:56 pm

Title: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Elmetiacos on July 11, 2011, 06:37:56 pm
Honestly, the problem of tin can or armoured cav proliferation was never going to be solved by raising upkeep costs anyway, because it's caused by high gen characters having piles of gold which they can add to by occasionally selling heirloom points of 250-500 thousand. Upkeep increases will just force the newbies permanently into peasant rags.

Either up the cost of heavy armour and horses or base it on some kind of more complex index formula, like (price * price) * 0.0001 or something, not on a straight percentage...
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Hotpokka on July 11, 2011, 07:32:24 pm
Or just return upkeep to how it was because there was nothing wrong with it.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Elmetiacos on July 11, 2011, 09:37:40 pm
Except that more and more people were using their vast pots of gold to effectively ignore upkeep.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Beans on July 11, 2011, 10:06:43 pm
The reasons those people have huge sums of money is not because of repair costs.

They have huge amounts of money because they accumulated it before repair costs were brought into the game, or they play a shitload and have 10's of heirlooms so they can sell them around to raise HUGE amounts of money.

When you raise the repair costs it impacts the people with no money WAY more than those people. They keep wearing the same super gear anyway so the net result is that you only fucked the people who were already fucked.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Oggrinsky on July 11, 2011, 10:33:51 pm
Agreed. These high upkeep costs only really hurt new players. It only furthers the gear gap, of say, someone who is Gen1-5 and someone who is Gen10-30. Players with high gens will barely feel repair costs which are relatively low when you're a millionaire. New players, or those with a moderate amount of gold, are being pushed into a lower tier of equipment.

Kind of off topic, but:
It's the same thing with the retirement experience nerf. It's really the newer players that suffer. Who cares if someone who's Gen 30, with a full set of +3 gear, can retire ultra quick and get more heirlooms? The experience nerf only widens the gap between the newer players and the vets. While vet players ought to feel like the time they invested gives them a slight edge over the competition it becomes quite ridiculous when newer players can no longer hope to amass the same gear at the same pace the vet players did.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Beans on July 12, 2011, 12:01:24 am
Everyone defending the upkeep change is saying the same thing: It is to reduce the amount of plate wearers.

That makes no sense. If you want to reduce the amount of people wearing plate, you increase the cost of plate and therefore the upkeep of it. Increasing the repairs on everything just kills people with less money.

If you want to change one thing, target it directly, not with some blanket move.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Imloxion on July 12, 2011, 08:06:53 pm
I just dont understand why people whine so much about tincans,its nice battling with/against tincans,it boost the medieval atmosphere..
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: ArchonAlarion on July 12, 2011, 08:58:18 pm
More importantly, armor isn't really that great, so the high costs are not warranted.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Seawied on July 13, 2011, 03:53:07 am
More importantly, armor isn't really that great, so the high costs are not warranted.

lol.... I can't even type a reply sarcastic enough for this post...
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: ArchonAlarion on July 13, 2011, 05:40:27 am
lol.... I can't even type a reply sarcastic enough for this post...

It isn't that great; the usefulness of armor is build-dependent and ping dependent (sad, but true).

The more skilled you are at directional mouse combat and dodging projectiles, the less armor you have to wear. Same philosophy applies to ironflesh.

I'd like to hear your sarcasm though.

Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Kenji on July 13, 2011, 05:52:52 am
My Heavy equipment: (Total: 138856 Repair: 0~9717)
(click to show/hide)

My Lite-Heavy equipment: (Total: 91434 Repair: 0 ~ 6395)
(click to show/hide)
You really think the upkeep doesn't hurt?

It does.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Gortha on July 13, 2011, 09:49:48 am
Honestly, the problem of tin can or armoured cav proliferation was never going to be solved by raising upkeep costs anyway, because it's caused by high gen characters having piles of gold which they can add to by occasionally selling heirloom points of 250-500 thousand. Upkeep increases will just force the newbies permanently into peasant rags.

Either up the cost of heavy armour and horses or base it on some kind of more complex index formula, like (price * price) * 0.0001 or something, not on a straight percentage...

true...
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Kai_123 on July 13, 2011, 09:55:27 am
there are not that many perma tincans anyway.
only george
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Kenji on July 13, 2011, 09:57:54 am
there are not that many perma tincans anyway.
only george
I strive to be one, but not rich enough yet..
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Seawied on July 13, 2011, 09:59:55 am
It isn't that great; the usefulness of armor is build-dependent and ping dependent (sad, but true).

The more skilled you are at directional mouse combat and dodging projectiles, the less armor you have to wear. Same philosophy applies to ironflesh.

I'd like to hear your sarcasm though.


ummm

0 armor= 1shotted.
Full black armor= 10+ throwing axes to kill.

Longer you live, the more damage you can do. Armor can turn a terrible player into a human wrecking ball. If you don't think armor is valuable, then you've never seen the top of the scoreboard.

Top NA players ROHYPNOL (excellent cav player, does best in heavy armor,) Snipsalot (don't remember his build off the top of my head,) Tydeus (guaranteed to cause hell in full plate... he also happens to disagree with you,) Goretooth (who has become such an icon in his black armor, that his setup is dubbed "Goretooth Armor,") need I go on? See a common theme here? They all take advantage of the benefits of heavy armor.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: BlueKnight on July 13, 2011, 11:10:56 am

ummm

0 armor= 1shotted.
Full black armor= 10+ throwing axes to kill.

Longer you live, the more damage you can do. Armor can turn a terrible player into a human wrecking ball. If you don't think armor is valuable, then you've never seen the top of the scoreboard.

Top NA players ROHYPNOL (excellent cav player, does best in heavy armor,) Snipsalot (don't remember his build off the top of my head,) Tydeus (guaranteed to cause hell in full plate... he also happens to disagree with you,) Goretooth (who has become such an icon in his black armor, that his setup is dubbed "Goretooth Armor,") need I go on? See a common theme here? They all take advantage of the benefits of heavy armor.

I don't agree. Sometimes I am really annoyed after I get killed with 3-4 hits by 1h despite my 68 body armour. On the other hand in gambeson I survive 2-3 hits from 1h. I don't understand it. Also the weight of the armour is very important and it influences on your combat possibilities. Sometimes I kill more guys in light clothes than in my Lordly Transitional Armour and I survive similar number of hits.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Kafein on July 13, 2011, 01:03:38 pm
I just dont understand why people whine so much about tincans,its nice battling with/against tincans,it boost the medieval atmosphere..

This.

Only NA players do think armor is that important. In EU, armor will gimp you so much for evading projectiles and footwork that in the end you loose survivability.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Beans on July 13, 2011, 03:58:11 pm
With arrow speed as slow as it is dodging projectiles at even the slowest of walking speeds isn't an issue.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: ArchonAlarion on July 13, 2011, 05:06:10 pm
I don't agree. Sometimes I am really annoyed after I get killed with 3-4 hits by 1h despite my 68 body armour. On the other hand in gambeson I survive 2-3 hits from 1h. I don't understand it. Also the weight of the armour is very important and it influences on your combat possibilities. Sometimes I kill more guys in light clothes than in my Lordly Transitional Armour and I survive similar number of hits.

Usually I will make more kills in light to medium armor, unless my ping is good, in which case I can play heavy armor well.

Heavy armor slows your attacks down and your movement. If you aren't attacking, you aren't killing. When I don my black armor, I will get swamped by haters with little chance of getting away or attacking back, and if my ping is above 100, I'm useless. The players seawied mentioned are top players and I'm assuming they have wpf out the ass; I can easily mention lightly armored pro players.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Kenji on July 13, 2011, 06:59:02 pm
Only NA players do think armor is that important. In EU, armor will gimp you so much for evading projectiles and footwork that in the end you loose survivability.
And that's why you get a plated charger. Or EU is too poor in general that for some reason only the NA players got more Tincans riding Tincan horses? :mrgreen:

Plate armors are better looking in my opinion, and that's what mattered to me.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Seawied on July 13, 2011, 08:58:04 pm
I don't agree. Sometimes I am really annoyed after I get killed with 3-4 hits by 1h despite my 68 body armour. On the other hand in gambeson I survive 2-3 hits from 1h. I don't understand it. Also the weight of the armour is very important and it influences on your combat possibilities. Sometimes I kill more guys in light clothes than in my Lordly Transitional Armour and I survive similar number of hits.

If you took the same hit in your gambeson that took 3 hits to kill you, you most likely would have been 1 shotted.

And here is my proof that you can survive 9 axes in plate armor.
It's not the reasoning since you guys mean well and put thought into it I think, it's the results that's the problem.

(click to show/hide)

I currently am doing 158 throwing, 6 powerthrow. There are 8 axes in that person. A ninth one followed, before I was chopped down in two hits.


Still think armor isn't that good?  :wink:
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: San on July 13, 2011, 09:19:23 pm
Armor gives you a lot more consistency. You can survive a few more hits and take more risky offensive actions. 1-2 extra hits goes a long way.

Of course, you can tear it up in light armor, but what I notice is that you can do really well, but you're a lot less consistent with how well you do, since you get killed a lot quicker as a glass cannon. You can still take around 2 decent hits in lighter armor.

The marketplace entirely ruined upkeep as a means to limit these heavily armored players. Get to level 31 and get 300-400k, enough to last a few generations if you're getting that x5 a lot. Sell a masterwork item lying around and that's  at least 1million gold.

The only thing I can think of is the existence of another currency only for upkeep, only obtainable while playing the game, but that's really drastic.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Glyph on July 13, 2011, 09:55:37 pm
Armor gives you a lot more consistency. You can survive a few more hits and take more risky offensive actions. 1-2 extra hits goes a long way.

Of course, you can tear it up in light armor, but what I notice is that you can do really well, but you're a lot less consistent with how well you do, since you get killed a lot quicker as a glass cannon. You can still take around 2 decent hits in lighter armor.

The marketplace entirely ruined upkeep as a means to limit these heavily armored players. Get to level 31 and get 300-400k, enough to last a few generations if you're getting that x5 a lot. Sell a masterwork item lying around and that's  at least 1million gold.

The only thing I can think of is the existence of another currency only for upkeep, only obtainable while playing the game, but that's really drastic.
but then it you would get infinite money for the marketplace because you don't have to pay upkeep :wink:

If you took the same hit in your gambeson that took 3 hits to kill you, you most likely would have been 1 shotted.

And here is my proof that you can survive 9 axes in plate armor.

Still think armor isn't that good?  :wink:
armor may give you survivability, but that doesn't mean it's better(ofc it's better then a gambeson), longbow arrows really hurt, nomatter how you put it, and so do xbows, throwing axes are cut damage(big difference), and that's also a reason why i'd like armored horses to be less expensive, because for example if you have a courser and 7 riding, you will almost insta kill with a heavy lance, but with a large warhorse, about half of all people. you can get less kills in the time you would with a courser, and the same counts for heavy armor.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Seawied on July 13, 2011, 10:33:34 pm
for example if you have a courser and 7 riding, you will almost insta kill with a heavy lance, but with a large warhorse, about half of all people. you can get less kills in the time you would with a courser, and the same counts for heavy armor.

I'd like to pull this quote just to emphasize my point for a second

ROHYPNOL, with one of the highest  KDRs world-wide is a lancer who frequently uses heavy armor. He does well with light/medium armor, but he really shines when he is in his high-cost gear.

Armor does have its drawbacks, but you really can't theorycraft your way into saying that armor is bad. If this were the case, you would would see the top 10 strewn with exclusively-low-armored melee and cav listed in the top 10 (or even top 100.) Heavy armor is clearly better than light/medium armor, even with its drawbacks.

Especially now, in its current patch, armor is even more effective at keeping you alive longer. I'm starting to gather that the new upkeep increase is partially done in response to the new damage calculations implemented.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: San on July 13, 2011, 11:27:16 pm
Didn't expect to hear the word theorycraft on these forums.

I think the armor soak thing was a nerfbuff, since before when I saw these armored titans in a group fight they would take 4-5 hits before actually getting stunned from a hit. I see a lot more of them stuck in stun/having more difficulty with multiple opponents.
Title: Re: Tin Cans and Upkeep Costs
Post by: Glyph on July 14, 2011, 12:02:41 am
I'd like to pull this quote just to emphasize my point for a second

ROHYPNOL, with one of the highest  KDRs world-wide is a lancer who frequently uses heavy armor. He does well with light/medium armor, but he really shines when he is in his high-cost gear.

Armor does have its drawbacks, but you really can't theorycraft your way into saying that armor is bad. If this were the case, you would would see the top 10 strewn with exclusively-low-armored melee and cav listed in the top 10 (or even top 100.) Heavy armor is clearly better than light/medium armor, even with its drawbacks.

Especially now, in its current patch, armor is even more effective at keeping you alive longer. I'm starting to gather that the new upkeep increase is partially done in response to the new damage calculations implemented.
im not especially talking about cav, because cav has the leaset drawbacks using heavy armor, but i mean, if goretooth would wear light armor, he'd be way faster, but survive less. if you have a courser and plate, you'll be just as fast as a guy with light armor and a courser(right?).

and i'm not trying to say heavy armor is bad, it just has it's pro's and cons, and yes probably a bit more pro's then cons then light armor has, but hey, it's not expensive for no reason.

and what did the patch change about armor then?