Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Osiris]

I don't think a proper war is likely to break out. Russia will seize the Crimea citing the fact most people there are of Russian decent.
The power grab in Kiev was done in such a way that if Crimeans seize the govt buildings in Crimea and declare they wish to be part of Russia then there is not much the USA can really say.
Its ok for one side to revolt and depose the president but its not ok for another side to revolt and declare themselves to be Russian?


Viktor Yanukovych keeps declaring that it was a coup and that he is still legally the president. That gives Russia all the reason it needs to get involved.

[Xant]

NATO cannot militarily compete with Russia (sure we have better tech, but they have manpower beyond the dreams of NATO)

Hahhaahaha.... ahahahah... hahahaha. Good joke. Russia's military is horribly trained and horribly equipped as a whole. US alone would absolutely crush them, though not without quite a few casualties -- let alone the whole NATO.

[SixThumbs]

Actual modern "wars" between superpowers are fought economically, ideologically, and through proxy and subterfuge. A literal outbreak of war I don't even want to imagine.

[Ujin]

I would poop my pants if that happened while looking out of my home window D:

Most probably you'd be cheering if you  were an eastern-Ukrainian.

P.S. promise to myself - not to get into this forum "debate" any further -).
P.P.S. BlindGuy (your nickname, the irony) has got this thing figured out right for the most part

[serr]

Most probably you'd be cheering if you were an eastern-Ukrainian.

Not sure if it is joke or not, but it is how Russia wants to represent it and it is so wrong..

[Tibe]

I don't think a proper war is likely to break out. Russia will seize the Crimea citing the fact most people there are of Russian decent.
The power grab in Kiev was done in such a way that if Crimeans seize the govt buildings in Crimea and declare they wish to be part of Russia then there is not much the USA can really say.
Its ok for one side to revolt and depose the president but its not ok for another side to revolt and declare themselves to be Russian?

If NATO lets that happen. Then it severely damages its relations in whole Europe. In most countries bordering Russia shitton of people are obliviously russian decent. In basically all of these countries, if fueled with enough propaganda bunch of these people can raise up arms, raise the Russian flags in the bordertowns and beg Kremlin to annex them. This has happened before, this is exactly how my country lost its independence to the Soviets in 1940. All u need is a base inside a country, some rioting locals and the takeover is easy and mostly without violence. Good to see history repeating itself.

[Xant]

Why would NATO not "let" it happen? Ukraine is not in NATO, NATO has nothing to do with the situation.

[Tibe]

Remeber that "Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances" thing Dave mentioned a few pages back. Well Ukraine itself does consider it a fact that the West is obligated to interfere. U can read it however u please and they can back out and say that they dont have the obligation, but that still damages their credibility.

[Mwahahaha]

Curren goverment in Ukraine was recognized by EU countries as legitimate. Yanukovych ran away from Ukraine and now from Russia he is declaring that he is the president, during that conference at Rostov na Donu he was talking so mach bullshit that ukrainians just ROFL. Look at that scum:

Yanukovich lost Ukraine but it seems he wants to get Crimea by help of russian army and become Crimean Khan  :lol:
                                          visitors can't see pics , please register or login

[Xant]

Remeber that "Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances" thing Dave mentioned a few pages back. Well Ukraine itself does consider it a fact that the West is obligated to interfere. U can read it however u please and they can back out and say that they dont have the obligation, but that still damages their credibility.

It might damage their credibility in Ukraine's eyes. But who actually cares about what Ukraine thinks? They can't even control their own country and Russia will likely claim a big part of it, if not the whole Ukraine.

Everyone else knows that NATO never promised to help Ukraine, so their credibility stays intact.

[serr]

Yanukovich lost Ukraine but it seems he wants to get Crimea by help of russian army and become Crimean Khan 

No he has no hope to get anything, right now he is helping Russia to justify their actions, nothing more.

[Mwahahaha]

No he has no hope to get anything, right now he is helping Russia to justify their actions, nothing more.

it was a joke. Here you are right Serr

[serr]

Everyone else knows that NATO never promised to help Ukraine, so their credibility stays intact.

While I don't think it can come to NATO vs Russia war, USA, Great Britain and Russia did promise to help Ukraine, everyone knows it and it can seriously damage their credibility. Another thing is that Russia won't go for direct war. More likely they will try to make Crimea declare its independence, provoke civil war and then invade as peacemakers, so NATO would have excuse.

[Xant]

USA, Great Britain and Russia =/= NATO, and those countries promised to help Ukraine if they had economic troubles, not in case it was invaded.

[Strudog]

USA, Great Britain and Russia =/= NATO, and those countries promised to help Ukraine if they had economic troubles, not in case it was invaded.

have you read the Budapest Memorandum?

just in case you haven't:

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.

Although it does not say they would go to war if any of these 'commitments' were broken, but who knows what the USA/ UK think, none of us are in No.10 or the White House.