cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Leshma on December 09, 2014, 12:53:27 am
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It's not even dramatic build, level 34 21/24 build with maxed WM/PS/ATH and no IF, wearing light gear and using MW twohanded sword... and actions on my screen are faster than my mind and my internet connection. For realz. I connect hits before I'm able to mentally process it, I 'chamber' all the time because my swings are so fast.
Won't ask who's idea was this, I know that already. But I want to know who authorized this nonsense, because that person is responsible for the death of this mod.
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It depends on your armor. Anything above light-medium should be the same as the 2011-2012 era at 8WM.
Before, level 34 and 8WM would give you 175wpf
weight:
2 helmet
9 body
1 gloves
2 legs
Old values (4* glove weight) would give you 161wpf
With 184wpf, 0IF, and 6 * glove weight penalty, you would have 162wpf. Current wpf values for agi builds sclae worse at higher armor and the largest possible difference is 9wpf at almost no armor.
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I have 180 effective wpf. That's not the whole point of this thread. I went through 8 gens since I started playing again and last gen was throwing heavy axes (15/27, almost pure thrower). That didn't went very well, because I had negative k/d and was in the middle of siege server scoreboard and lower on battle. With new build I'm top three on siege and first on battle when I'm paying attention what I'm doing. Which I tend to do less, because I can fool around with chambered sword and slash people from behind, without having to block once.
Builds shouldn't boost average player to top of the scoreboard, but cRPG balancers just can't get that to their heads for some reason.
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You're not any faster with that build than even before the wpf change, which you heavily implied (now builds like 12/33 on the other hand..), so is there an issue other than you performing well on a build you used to play often in the past? Build compositions on the server and tactics just change around. Average players have occasionally topped the scoreboard since as far as I could remember and there's no problem with that.
I still think point acquisition should be better, but there was no way to get raw kd stats the last time someone tried. Some people are going to be worth more points than they should, and no one is weighted in the 1st round.
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leschma is babkling again,
21 21 is way better with full if and decent armor
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leschma is babkling again,
im nto drukn
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leschma is babkling again,
21 21 is way better with full if and decent armor
You can't tell nerf 2H topic when you see one?
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I dont care anymore, a lot of weak players topscore nowdays and some of them have eggo biger than shemabjord combo.
If they can you can too.
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That's the whole point, class is uterly broken. Anyone can do it. We still have balancers, and this subforum is open for a reason I guess. Not saying that 2H is the only strong class, but it is the strongest. There are few silly polearms as well and 1H despite dealing lower damage can be really dangerous in the right hands. But players who don't use cookie cutter builds and weapons are pretty much wasting their time.
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Many low-tier 1hs and polearms were buffed while 2h remained the same and just received some cool new weapons instead. 1h and polearms cater to versatility against other classes, while 2h is primarily melee-oriented in choice. Buffing 1h and polearms too much actually make 2h redundant/useless, and I think that those two are nearing the limit of how good they should be when comparing swords, blunt weapons, and axes.
Depending on the ranged composition (have been hearing things about throwers recently?), you may want that 1h+shield or be able to switch to a hoplite weapon if the need arises.
I'm always open to discussion, but specific things like item stats are the easiest to talk about over more abstract observances.
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when I dont feel like playing I dust my lvl 34 13/33 agiwhore off, head to eu1, run around and kill archers. best thing ever to do when you're bored. Afterwards hear people complain, with a good reason.
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24/21 > 21/24
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Dunno about that, speed (acceleration) difference between 7 ATH and 8 ATH is quite massive imho.
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server is lagging s fuck now that may be reason to
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Has anyone looked at adjusting the strength requirements on heavy armour yet? I don't really have a problem with the wpf formula, but the fact that 15/27 or 15/30 builds can run around in plate is a bit silly imho.
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That's the whole point, class is uterly broken. Anyone can do it. We still have balancers, and this subforum is open for a reason I guess. Not saying that 2H is the only strong class, but it is the strongest. There are few silly polearms as well and 1H despite dealing lower damage can be really dangerous in the right hands. But players who don't use cookie cutter builds and weapons are pretty much wasting their time.
whoa whoa, ill agree tydeus destroyed this mod and agi buff after agi buff is what did it. but 2h is no longer the strongest class, as a guy who totally abused the long axe and bec for a year...i can say that easily. Long reach, fast, great dmg, great animations, and the fastest overhead out there.
pole is king right now imo.
but either way...why chadz let tydeus destroy his mod,,,idk either man, i just dont get it.
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why chadz let tydeus destroy his mod
To pave way for the hype train new game that's having engine trouble
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I don't know if this is the real problem with the game but something is wrong. It feels like a total spamfest without the tactical melee gameplay we had before the big patch hit
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I think the higher levels are the main culprit, and I will go as far as saying perhaps it was a mistake. With optimal builds it borders on breaking the capabilities of the engine. Saw this before in the fall of 2011, when I and some others were level 40 and a few 40++
It's not as bad as back then though. You *can* block whatever comes at you, but the amount of times where swings seems to skip frames or hit out of the blue has increased.
It's tolerable, but some builds, with some weapons, with some techniques, should be a little bit slower.
If it can be reversed or fixed at this point.. now that's the real question. San, what you think?
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There are few players online and most of those are way better than average player back in late 2010. It's not that easy to block katana spammers, if they are good at chambering (which is rather easy with Katana and more than 180 wpf).
I like high levels because they unlock good hybrid builds (bellow level 34 hybrid builds are bit weak). But 'optimal' builds are at fault for this, so called pure builds with high conversion of skill points. Two years ago I was lobbying against those builds, now you can see them in action.
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chambering which is rather easy with Katana and more than 180 wpf
Isn't it exactly the same for all classes, all weapons and all wpf? Afaik wpf doesn't effect the chamber animation length at all and it's about the same for all three classes. It does feel like with some weapons it's easier to chamber than others, but I think that's just a feeling and the playstyle in question and not something to do with the weapon and wpf. Personally I do most my chambers on 1H while with poles/2H I rarely chamber, but trust held swings and spamming instead.
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I think the higher levels are the main culprit, and I will go as far as saying perhaps it was a mistake. With optimal builds it borders on breaking the capabilities of the engine. Saw this before in the fall of 2011, when I and some others were level 40 and a few 40++
It's not as bad as back then though. You *can* block whatever comes at you, but the amount of times where swings seems to skip frames or hit out of the blue has increased.
It's tolerable, but some builds, with some weapons, with some techniques, should be a little bit slower.
If it can be reversed or fixed at this point.. now that's the real question. San, what you think?
Hm? I enjoy the respecs even though I won't do it to reset my kd =D
The devs came up one day and said that they were raising levels a ton, now try to preemptively adjust stats on certain classes. I think those levels were the best, since anything lower would've made existing level 33-34s feel cheated.
I think at the worst, -1 speed on all weapons and possible caps on wpf/athletics or something. Latter requires Harald for proper UI on the website.
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People really have this much of an issue with fast builds? Wasnt too long ago since people complained about the mod being slow. I know thats what went on in our TS atleast, blockings feel too easy.. Speed is good dont slow things down.
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I'm using a strength build myself and I feel like I can compete with even the heavily stacked agi, while before I felt a lot slower without that wpf change with IF. People are still going to be fast with -1 speed, so it's not like they're good solutions to anything, too. Probably going to try to contact devs to see if there is any time to patch now that the kickstarter is nearing its end, even though there is a high chance of them being even busier because of that.
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I don't think it is as much the weapon speed as it is the footspeed. When you combine it with the nerfed turning a fight can just devolve into running around each other swinging away. It also makes the problems with turning overheads (where you miss ones that look like solid hits and hit random ones off target) even more of problem.
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I don't think it is as much the weapon speed as it is the footspeed.
This. That's what I had in mind complaining in other thread about high levels. As a problem I don't see high wpf, but high athletics. And gear difficutly. 12-33 builds with arguably the best 2h sword in the game (miaodao) shouldn't be possible
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This. That's what I had in mind complaining in other thread about high levels. As a problem I don't see high wpf, but high athletics. And gear difficutly. 12-33 builds with arguably the best 2h sword in the game (miaodao) shouldn't be possible
so true
s is way overpowered now
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I personally feel the nerfed turnspeed is to blame for a lot of the random running around spamming swings.
Otherwise I enjoy the faster pace a lot, but the turnspeed nerf makes things more way more sluggish then they need be imho.
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That's an interesting way of looking at it :)
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You know whats interesting way to look at things. Raising weapon and armor reqs so that everything bar few selected peasant items require at least 18 STR :wink: Because that is pretty much what Tydeus did to heavy STR builds when he removed free wpf :wink:
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Not that I disagree, but I don't think it would fix anything, either. Agi builds aren't really optimized for heavy armor, moreso the 8-12 weight armor imo. Strength builds have final wpf similar to the old days as long as you have 9 or more agility and good WM+IF.
My thoughts are the same as posted here: http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/increase-the-difficulty-requirement-on-medium-heavy-tier-armours/
I like certain builds having roles through some restraints. There's also the idea of builds' strengths and weaknesses naturally drawing most to their role while keeping the restraints loose.
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If cRPG build system was any good they would keep it intact in Melee: Battlegrounds, wouldn't they? I agree with different builds serving different roles, having strength and weaknesses. But what we have in cRPG isn't that. Bee with a great sword or long polearm which hits hard and fast and slow juggernaut who can survive dozen head hits aren't builds. Those are a bad joke and belong to fantasy MMORPG, to serve as tanks and rogues/meleedps. But not in a game which is considered as best medieval combat sim on the market. That is why native folks make fun of cRPG.
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If cRPG build system was any good they would keep it intact in Melee: Battlegrounds, wouldn't they? I agree with different builds serving different roles, having strength and weaknesses. But what we have in cRPG isn't that. Bee with a great sword or long polearm which hits hard and fast and slow juggernaut who can survive dozen head hits aren't builds. Those are a bad joke and belong to fantasy MMORPG, to serve as tanks and rogues/meleedps. But not in a game which is considered as best medieval combat sim on the market. That is why native folks make fun of cRPG.
Native is in no way any less fantasy than cRPG. Having an amazing amount of variety with a complex combat system making everything viable to certain points sounds great to me. Fantasy MMO or not, this is what i play crpg for. How else could you make noticeable differences in builds if not through this strength juggernaut - agility olympic runner with a nice balance build in the middle?