Author Topic: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]  (Read 15238 times)

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Offline Thryn

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Re: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2017, 09:46:57 pm »
+6
I personally believe c-RPG needs a database wipe to not lose veterans after a week of playing or so, which is gonna happen if there is no "goal" and "progress" in the game, which c-RPG is ALL about. What kept people rolling was that juicy x5s, now you don't give a shit if you win the round or not, because it simply doesn't matter. That kind of c-RPG will die again after people feed their nostalgic needs, the reason mods like Nord Invasion or Mercenaries is still alive is because of their huge progress pyramids, it always points you to the next goal.

Assumptions, assumptions.

What cRPG Means to Me
a shitpost by Thryn

I guess I'll ask myself a simple first question: why is it that I play cRPG? I could say that perhaps I love the competitive nature of the Mount and Blade combat system (best melee game to date in my opinion), but if this were the sole reason, I suppose I should be content with Native. Perhaps I love being able to customize my gear and showboat my own style, but the new Mordhau alpha has way more customization than cRPG. Perhaps I want to take part in Strategus battles when I could play Of Kings and Men's Epic instead. Maybe it's because of my love for the dwindling community, which I rightly cannot find a suitable substitute for. The point is that I equally enjoy all of these things that cRPG provides (or provided). These unique qualities that cRPG brings together are the basis for an enjoyable experience that players gain by, well, playing. But what is the point of me saying this?

I disagree with the following:
Quote
I personally believe c-RPG needs a database wipe to not lose veterans after a week of playing or so, which is gonna happen if there is no "goal" and "progress" in the game, which c-RPG is ALL about

This assumes that a) people only play cRPG to grind out looms and b) a wipe is the only way to "save" the mod.

To assume that people only play for the grind is a puzzling assertion. There's a plethora of other reasons as to why people play the mod (I myself do not play cRPG for some "grind"), but if we were to assume that everyone played cRPG for the grind, why would we choose this mod over another such as NordInvasion? After all, the xp multiplier isn't effective in distributing xp to players on a fair grind:time basis. I'd even go as far as saying that, if cRPG were all about the grind, DTV would be/would have been one of the most popular game modes (needing multiple servers going to support its playerbase). Based on my personal bias and trash-level supporting evidence above, I think it's safe to say that the grind is not what keeps players engaged. I think the best option to try and (hate to use this word) "revive" cRPG is to try and undo some of the damage that was done by previous patches now that we have this magical power known as hindsight.

The damage I am referring to is the raising of the retirement level cap by the Revival Patch and the death of Strategus. If Strat can be fixed and reimplemented in noncancerous fashion, I believe that some of the community may return. However, I think the more important of these two issues is the Retirement change. The Revival Patch brought a new major idea into play: reduction of the grind. This was designed so that new players could join the fight and not be at a peasant vs knight disadvantage straight out of the gate (i.e. increased xp gain, free looms, etc.). This is a completely understandable thought to have especially since cRPG has a bit of a learning curve. However, this patch also implemented a higher retirement level, allowing people to go to level 35 with ease. Playing at this level fundamentally breaks the game, for the engine goes nuts with damage values and speed ratings and so on. What this, in my opinion, ultimately accomplished was the destruction of the veteran playerbase. No one, especially at a high skill level, wants to stick around to play a game that does not function at a desirable level. If we are unable to retain even our most loyal players, there is no reason to believe that some group of new players will stick around to play. The irony of this patch seems to be that the desired influx of new players destroyed the old ones, and because of this destruction, no new players stuck around. Now I think I can tie this into the second part of Kratos' statement: we need to wipe cRPG to save cRPG.

Why? What makes you think that taking anything from the playerbase you are trying to recall will somehow garner their interest? They want to come have a good time bashing heads and earning some looms on the side. Wiping looms will do nothing but eliminate half of the current players and finally kill the mod. If anyone is so bent on grinding for looms, why don't you just delete yours yourself? Problem solved. Hell, give them away, I'll take them. My point is people have made hundreds of hours worth of progress and wiping that out just so they have to do it again is pointless. We should be asking why people stopped playing, and I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that people quit because "not enough grind."

What reason is there to grind if it's not fun doing it?



Side note: My wish for the future (deep) is that cRPG 2 is developed for Bannerlord. I hope that Donkey Crew can get some sort of deal going with Taleworlds like the Brytenwalda Team or FSE and get paid to release an expansion for the base game.
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Offline Rico

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Re: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2017, 11:30:52 pm »
+5
Hej, I'm back

On topic, we should make the wipe a personal choice because as others mentioned, some people have a life now

Aka don't wipe me
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Offline McKli_PL

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Re: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2017, 12:03:04 am »
0


Native combat seems to be a lot more unbalanced to me. My frustration from the native combat has always been the stabs, whether it's two-handed, one-handed or polearm. There's like a 1-2% chance of landing a glance on an opponent, so people can just spamstab without stress, and to not only talk about stabs, the feintspasm animations in native is a lot worse too.

On another topic, the way the native combat system handles, makes the damage system more unbalanced as well. cRPG feels much more tweaked, just my two cents.
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Offline RandomDude

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Re: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2017, 03:07:02 am »
0
As much as I'd hate to lose everything, I'm ok with a wipe but not until there's actually some new players who might appreciate it.

Offline Thryn

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Re: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2017, 03:52:14 am »
+2
As much as I'd hate to lose everything, I'm ok with a wipe but not until there's actually some new players who might appreciate it.

shit, the new players should appreciate that the grind has been made easier and they start with 3 looms

the whole point of playing mount and blade is about the rewarding gameplay, the idea that last month you got rekt by james of acre and after playing and getting better, you dumpster every deus vulting nerd in the server. i think having a competitive system that rewards skillful play is what makes multiplayer games appetizing. this is something that the og devs of crpg understood.

the idea of wiping doesnt do anything besides making the nerds who have 400 looms go and make another 400 looms because they love grinding apparently

like shit, looms dont make you good at this game, and if a new player ever says to me "ur only good cus ur looms" i'll go full autist on them
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Offline Kadeth

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Re: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2017, 06:52:57 am »
+6
Also, don't be so r00d :(

Wasn't directed at you, m'lady. I just can't understand the "but muh looms" argument; surely more people playing the game is more important than anyone's looms? And before you say there's no evidence that a wipe would bring back players, I talked to Prof about the idea of reverting to a pre-wipe database if a wipe doesn't actually bring back a substantial number of players, and he seemed to think it was possible to do so. So it can't hurt to try, can it? If it doesn't bring back any players, we revert and this argument goes away forever. But if it does lead to cRPG being populated again, isn't that more important than any armoury or high level character you're attached to?

Native combat seems to be a lot more unbalanced to me. My frustration from the native combat has always been the stabs, whether it's two-handed, one-handed or polearm. There's like a 1-2% chance of landing a glance on an opponent, so people can just spamstab without stress, and to not only talk about stabs, the feintspasm animations in native is a lot worse too.

On another topic, the way the native combat system handles, makes the damage system more unbalanced as well. cRPG feels much more tweaked, just my two cents.

Native definitely has its problems balance wise too, don't get me wrong. I just meant more balanced in the sense that everyone has the same stats, much easier to balance when you have faction classes that are always the same and you don't have hundreds of different builds and items to consider. And yes, the native stab animations are very powerful, particularly noticeable because the average body armour in native is a lot lower than cRPG. There are things I like about both modules, but I guess that's for another thread.

the idea of wiping doesnt do anything besides making the nerds who have 400 looms go and make another 400 looms because they love grinding apparently

So you can confirm that a wipe doesn't:

  • put everyone on an even playing field
  • recreate goals in cRPG
  • let people experience peasant wars (especially cool for those who weren't around when cRPG first came about)
  • attract players from other mods who won't play cRPG because they feel like everyone is years ahead of them in progress
  • bring back old players for looking for glory days nostalgia

These wipe threads aren't going away, clearly I'm not the only one who feels like it could really renew the mod. But we aren't going to know what effect it will have without trying it. It's a complicated problem and no doubt some people will rage quit when their years of hard work (lol) disappears, but with Prof considering options for a compromise I can't see why we shouldn't at least trial something before bonerlord, mordhau or something comes along and destroys cRPG once and for all.

VOTE ONE
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Offline Gnjus

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Re: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2017, 07:58:20 am »
-1
Firearms, we need dem matchlocks.

Shut your dwarven gob and go make some gloves !!!

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Re: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2017, 01:18:49 pm »
0
Well said Kadeth and Thryn. I think you guys both make valid points. I definitely understand the motivation for a wipe and it could result in more players. Though I am skeptical where these players will come from and a full wipe would make me set the game aside. Personally I think the compromise Professor is outlining here could be a good middle ground. Reset everyone's characters and give veterans a chance to work towards earning some percentage of their old looms back over time.

I think basing the amount of looms that can be retrieved off of generation count would be best. I would also suggest that after a few weeks of play veteran players should unlock somewhere between 5-30% of their generation count in heirloom points.

Offline Bronto

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Re: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2017, 02:37:30 pm »
+3
Well said Kadeth and Thryn. I think you guys both make valid points. I definitely understand the motivation for a wipe and it could result in more players. Though I am skeptical where these players will come from and a full wipe would make me set the game aside. Personally I think the compromise Professor is outlining here could be a good middle ground. Reset everyone's characters and give veterans a chance to work towards earning some percentage of their old looms back over time.

I think basing the amount of looms that can be retrieved off of generation count would be best. I would also suggest that after a few weeks of play veteran players should unlock somewhere between 5-30% of their generation count in heirloom points.

If this happens, we need to make the mod way less grindy. Look at every other multiplayer game out there right now. Most of them you don't even have levels but what you're working towards is unlocking sweet gear. This can be achieved through experience earned in combat for sure, but at this point in the mods life/death/resurrection/zombie mode it's now in, starting people from scratch with the same system is probably not what we should do. Who wants to no life a week or two just to get that first retirement again? I sure as fuck don't. At best I might play 2 hours a session, at worst log on see no one is here, close game, drink mountain dew code red, eat cheetos, and play CoD. It's not even about gear or gens at this point, it's about starting completely over and I can now see how that is going to alienate a lot of people. Instead of wiping the playerbase, we should wipe and revert the stats back to pre-Tydeus (I believe Prof is working on just that). That will bring more players back than anything.

I think we should approach this like the patch of destiny. Everyone gets a free respec since your levels are going to be adjusted instead of starting over at level 1. We do this and we fix strat, you'll be looking at about all the people that are willing to come back at that point and any new nerds who wish to stay.

Offline the real god emperor

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Re: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2017, 04:26:09 pm »
+5
What I suggest is a full wipe, but it would be foolish to expect one to happen to be honest. It is obvious that community is divided, not just as pro-wipe and wipe, but lot of other opinions too. And Professor's plan seems like the closest we got that can be called "middle ground" I think. People don't want to lose their riches in a dead game, it's gay, but I really understand. Trust me, I played the game at least as much as you did. Grinding? You may like or not like it, personal preference. But it is true that we should take examples from once lesser mods. Mercenaries got no levels. Gear grinding is relatively easy than acquiring masterworks, but rare stuff are uberhard (seriously you need to be totally lifeless to grind to that handgonne, or steal your moms credit card to buy gold from other lifeless specimen). Thus, mod is alive. People care about winning. There is this retarded gamemode called camp assault, where one clan defends the camp and rest attacks(or kills each other, its FFA lmao) and even that is fun for me in the absence of Strategus. Other than that, mechanics are retarded as fuck compared to c-RPG. And there is no high-skill level competition, most people stop blocking after a few swings or doesn't know how a pike works. And there is no marketplace.
NordInvasion is fun, a totally casual game with events and shit. It has a drop system, materials and weapons alike, gear grinding is extremely hard but the marketplace is booming with activity. People always trade with each other, any single item has a decent market value, therefore making people care for winning.

I think we, all together, without making unfunny jokes at each other instead of producing counter arguments, can come up with a common solution. With our superior game mechanics and superior gamemodes I still believe in c-RPG more than I ever believed in Okam in the first place.

Most of the points I am telling are already pointed out but still;
Gold is worthless. It is needed to be brought back to its old value, the ages when Marketplace and upkeep mattered.
Strat is a must. Most people - competitive people - played the mod for it. It should be reseted (at the very least)
Level revert has to happen, I am sure nobody disagrees here.
A wipe with the peasantry removed, like level 30 as a start, 31 as retirement, with maybe more than one lp, with maybe less experience required. Or a partial wipe with %of looms remaining or whatever that project was.

Any ideas?

Offline naduril

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Re: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]
« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2017, 04:31:33 pm »
+4
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Some TL;DR please?

I have never retired with my main and it is 37 level (353mln exp) and Gen 1. But still I have several looms my own and fill in others from armory. The only thing I would miss is my level and perfect cav build that can kick asses even on foot.
But as long as this legendary hero isn't being used anyway, opening c-rpg page is like going to museum and look at the glory of the past.

So, I don't mind if it would be wiped. Furthermore I am pretty sure that some people will be pissed in DRZ (and not only) that they were wiped, but vast majority would not give a single shite about it because anyway noone plays.
Last time I played was this summer. Suddenly servers were populated for one weekend or two. But when I told my brothers to join there were max 10 people.
But honestly I doubt so much that it would change anything. And it looks that nothing can revive cRPG. Maybe new Strat could, but still doubtful. And the new updates and maintenance will not. Only new players (and a lot) but where from are you going bring them?

TL;DR Who cares about wipe when noone plays anyway? I don't.
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Offline Jona

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Re: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2017, 04:42:26 pm »
+1
So you can confirm that a wipe doesn't:

  • put everyone on an even playing field
  • recreate goals in cRPG
  • let people experience peasant wars (especially cool for those who weren't around when cRPG first came about)
  • attract players from other mods who won't play cRPG because they feel like everyone is years ahead of them in progress
  • bring back old players for looking for glory days nostalgia

  • No, it doesn't. The skill gap will always be the only thing that ever matters, unless we're talking about a level gap >10 or so. Looms are essentially irrelevant as thryn said.
  • Not everyone's goal is to grind over and over with no end in sight. My only goal in crpg is to have a good time playing, something severely hindered by having no good gear and being level 1.
  • There's a reason no one ever organized a peasant wars event where people sign up with new characters and peasant gear - they suck. Might as well have a duel with our high leveled characters holding the walk toggle the whole time, peasant wars are somehow even less fun than that.
  • This is little more than a meme at this point. If this truly was the only reason newcomers stayed away from this game, they would have came rushing back when we last made adjustments to the starter pack.
  • More players would probably come back if they had their looms/levels and we just reverted to the old system where everyone was level 30-36 instead of 35-38.

Can you confirm that a wipe won't scare off more players than it brings back? No you can't. We can all speculate as much as we want, truth be told it's pretty pointless to waste our time. That said, there are definitely more people strongly opposed to a wipe (read: won't bother playing again if a wipe happens) than there are those strongly opposed to keeping things the same. All this means to me is that we're guaranteed to lose players if we wipe, and not guaranteed to gain any by doing so. Keeping things the same/reverting to the old leveling system, we're guaranteed to get some people to come back without risking losing anyone.

A counter-argument to the compromise of "only wipe levels and lock looms behind some sort of retirement wall": I probably oppose this idea more than a full wipe, tbh. My looms have very little value to me, I couldn't care less if they got taken away assuming everyone else's did. At that point looms become meaningless since no one has any. That said, what I would miss if we did a wipe is my characters' levels. Both my main and my alts are at a high enough level where I don't need to worry about grinding again to get at a competitive level. Not only are they competitive, they're also exactly where I want them to be. Drop just one or two levels off of either of them and they suddenly become much slower/weaker, and frankly, getting slower wouldn't be all that fun. This is a sacrifice I'm willing to make should we revert to the old leveling system, as overall I'd likely remain one of the faster builds despite losing some agi points. But if we do a partial wipe were I can unlock my looms if I grind enough (whoop de doo), I'll still be very unlikely to ever get anywhere near as close to my current build, which is what makes crpg fun (for me at least).
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2017, 05:16:59 pm »
+3
Are people actually missing the grind? It was definitely the most annoying part of cRPG.

I liked it quite a lot actually.
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Offline Peasant_Woman

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Re: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2017, 05:46:38 pm »
0
Gold and level reset for a possible new system, fine;
Just please don't touch the heirlooms!
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Offline njames89

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Re: c-RPG Pro-Database Wipe Assembly [No polls, written opinions.]
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2017, 06:19:33 pm »
+1
Only new players (and a lot) but where from are you going bring them?

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Couple thousand times the launcher has been downloaded since we put the new one up on ModDB in June. There is actually a steady trickle of new players when patches and bug fixes are consistently implemented. I know as I have seen many of them, helped a bunch of them get set up, and answered many of their questions. These numbers get especially good when we have good pictures/videos/articles to put up on ModDB about patches/new items being added in.

During the summer when people saw active devs (before Dupre went MIA) population was good and only started declining after a month or so when it became apparent that Dupre had dissapeared and the patch people were waiting for wasn't coming. I agree that a new strategus coupled with good patches/bug fixes is definitely something that would give the mod a better chance at revival.