the death of crpg.
lol - Care to explain exactly how xbows are completely gimped and why this would be the death of cRPG?
The difficulty changes are needed and backed by many xbowmen already (DaveUKR to name the most prominent) - at any rate they are countered in the better xbows by accuracy and missile speed buffs.
The 3 slot change to Arbalests forces hybrids down to the Heavy Crossbow and Crossbow and I can accept a few people will be upset over that but as a hybrid Arbalest user myself I can live with that QQ
Pure Arbalesters will have to settle for a 0-slot 1 hander, but there are decent options here now so its not a massive nerf. Most pure xbows just run away anyway though.
The un-sheathable change to Arbalests and Heavy Crossbows doesn't really change much except to give a reason for using the Crossbow. Runners will still run whilst melee fighters will still fight and if they win they just pick the xbow up again.
The other stat changes are pretty minor and are just done to add a bit of consistency to xbows
1) Horses and Armour take up slots
Light Horses (Sumpter-Palfrey) = 0 slot
Medium Horses (Courser-Eastern) = 1 slot
Heavy Horses (Barded and over) = 2 slots
Would mostly just mess with everyone's build that rides a horse.
Super Heavy Armours (55-60BA) = 3 slots
Heavy Armours (50-54BA) = 2 slots
MediumHeavy Armours (45-49BA) = 1 slots
All other Armours = 0 slots
With similar splits on Boots, Gloves and Helmets*
You are taking it to far with the heavy armors.
*It is your heaviest item of armour that determines the slots used up. So Gothic Plate + Heavy Gauntlets, Gothic Plate + Leather Gloves & Leather Scale + Heavy Gauntlets all equal 3 slots. This is to allow players to keep continuity with armour sets.
Desired Result
- People using the heaviest armour/horses are forced to compromise on weapons and vice versa
- Can remove upkeep since stacking completely OP sets of equip is impossible
I agree with the horsemen thing, but your taking away from the already extremely limited diversity.
Reasoning
- Regardless of what people think about them, slots have proven to be a good way of balancing weapon usage (No Great Maul + Danish OP heros). Upkeep meanwhile has proven a bad way of balancing overall equipment usage. So lets just use the good way and scrap the bad :)
Yup changing required slots of items can destroy whole classes in cRPG take the 2 hander/Polearmer + Crossbow build for example.
Notes
- Some 1H would need to be made 2 slots to keep variety
- some more 2H and Polearms would need to be 3 slots
I feel like that would take away from variety.
2) Re-balance Xbows to the following stats (nerfs in red, buffs in green)
Hunting Crossbow (cheap but pretty crap)
Missile Speed: 40, Weight: 2.5, Accuracy: 80, Difficulty: 10, Speed: 175, Damage: 35p, slots: 1
Light Crossbow (HA weapon)
Missile Speed: 45, Weight: 3.0, Accuracy: 83, Difficulty: 12, Speed: 150, Damage: 47p, slots: 2
Crossbow (Melee focused Hybrid Weapon)
Missile Speed: 50, Weight: 3.5, Accuracy: 86, Difficulty: 14, Speed: 125, Damage: 59p, slots: 2, Can't Reload on Horseback,
Heavy Crossbow (Crossbow focused hybrid weapon)
Missile Speed: 55, Weight: 4.0, Accuracy: 89, Difficulty: 16, Speed: 100, Damage: 71p, slots: 2, Can't Reload on Horseback, Can't Sheath
Arbalest (Pure Crossbowman Weapon)
Missile Speed: 60, Weight: 4.5, Accuracy: 92, Difficulty: 18, Speed: 75, Damage: 83p, slots: 3, Can't Reload on Horseback, Can't Sheath
Just by glancing at this. You want to nerf all crossbow classes into the dirt. Its funny how the Pure Crossbowman weapon would require 3 slots- so 13 bolts total and a 0 slot 1 hander extremely limiting the choices in melee weapons. It's already to heavy and I have to have 9 athletics just to keep up with my team as it is. Changing the accuracy by 1, Damage by 3? and the missile speed by 2, doesn't really make up for the +3 strength requirement, making it slower to reload, adding another slot requirement, adding more weight, and unsheathable. Your change would be the death to Pure Crossbowmen.
Desired Result
- Proper variation in xbows and reasons to use all of them not just 2 or 3
The Armour slot thing is a bit silly. Plate soldiers running around in leather gloves and leather shoes would look stupid.
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Patrick suggested this idea or something like it a long time ago:
EVERYTHING TAKES SLOTS. EVERYTHIIIING. You have a total amount of slots for weapons, armor, etc. Values adjustable.
I am a crossbow user myself and have been for a very long time. The very fact that people's objections to this boil down to them no longer automatically seeing the Arbalest as the best choice for a foot xbowman show it needs changing imo. The best weapons need stat trade-offs to balance them. Money/upkeep just doesn't work since you can make it in other ways.
Arbalest ain't the best xbow nowadays either. Heavy Xbow outshines it already, and your suggestion would just make the arbalest even worse.
And no, the listed example you gave is 6 slots. Read your own proposal (2 slots charger, 2 slots kuyak, 2 slots heavy lance).
Super Heavy Armours (55-60BA) = 3 slots
Heavy Armours (50-54BA) = 2 slots
MediumHeavy Armours (45-49BA) = 1 slots
All other Armours = 0 slots
Heavy Kuyak = 44BA = 0slotsOh, so make the medium armours even MORE efficient than they are now?
Oh, so make the medium armours even MORE efficient than they are now?
Genious!
2 things
1) Why on earth would you want to dissuade people from wearing medium armour?
2) If your measure of efficiency is armour to weight ratio then the Shirt is the most efficient armour. Are you saying that's OP at 0 slots too? :D
Armour to weight ratio is a sensible way of comparing similar level armours, it has very little bearing on overall armour balance in the game.
Kuyak 0 slots
Plate 3 slots
What's most effective out of those two? It's not the plate, that's for sure.
That depends on what else you want to use. If all you want to do is run around with a Mace or a Warhammer then for a lot of players the Plate is more effective.What.... what game are you playing?
What.... what game are you playing?
So you are saying that if upkeep didn't exist, you and every other player in cRPG, would ALWAYS choose a Great Maul/Pronoia Armour/Wisby Gauntlet/Mail Chausses/Barbutte combination over a combination of the Warhammer/Milanese Plate/Heavy Gauntlet/Cased Greaves/Weimar Helmet (ignoring style ofc).Do I really have to tell you about how weight affects you in this game? Sure, for high STR builds, the heavier armour the better, but what about 15/24 builds and the like? Or those with throwing? Fuck, what about archers and crossbowmen? Most of those wouldn't be using full plate all the time is my guess, if we dropped the upkeep. Fact is, the medium to medium/heavy armours are the best overall armours. Go up to plate and they weight too much, while giving too little. Doesn't matter for people with 1 or 0 athletics or on a horse, that's true, but for most builds? Medium armour.
Personally I at least would stop and think whether I want the 16 extra BA, 10 extra HA and 13 extra FA, or if i prefer the 12 extra damage. It would depend on my build and style of play. I think a lot of other people would also stop and think too, but remember the slots and item stats can always be adjusted for better balance if it turns out that everybody does go for the same option. The whole point is that this introduces a proper trade-off system across all equipment usage. The exact balance and nature of that system once introduced can be endlessly adjusted for optimization.
Do I really have to tell you about how weight affects you in this game? Sure, for high STR builds, the heavier armour the better, but what about 15/24 builds and the like? Or those with throwing? Fuck, what about archers and crossbowmen? Most of those wouldn't be using full plate all the time is my guess, if we dropped the upkeep. Fact is, the medium to medium/heavy armours are the best overall armours. Go up to plate and they weight too much, while giving too little. Doesn't matter for people with 1 or 0 athletics or on a horse, that's true, but for most builds? Medium armour.
Hard requirements like slots and the current item requirements are crap. Soft requirements like weight slowing you down or slowing attack speed are/would be much better.
Besides, why the hell are you comparing an armour setup with a Great Maul to another armour setup with a warhammer? You do know they are two very different weapons, right?
Also if Heavy Armour is so crap why is it that it carries the highest upkeep, costs the most, is the armour of choice in Strat and is limited in most tournaments?
How often do you see plate in strat? I've mostly see armors between cavalry robes and rus scale which is 0-1 slots. Transitionals and coat of plates also makes a few appearences, and should be 2 slot according to yourself. Do you really believe the plate armor deserves 3 slot? They're not better than kuyak, rus scale and brigandine. The armor is just not worth the lower speed, at all.
I know exactly what weight does. And yes some people like lighter armour which is why i said my choice depends on build, but the people using lighter armour aren't gear crutching to the point of being OP. The suggestion is one to limit the use of Super Heavy Armour, alongside the heaviest weapons or the heaviest horses. We don't soft cap medium armour now so why on earth would I want to hard cap it? Also if Heavy Armour is so crap why is it that it carries the highest upkeep, costs the most, is the armour of choice in Strat and is limited in most tournaments?I knew that Randomdude was 21/18 or 18/21. But you know what else I know? That he was way more dangerous when he used that brigandine of his instead of his plate. And gear crutching has nothing to do with how heavy your armour is. I currently have +3 Churburg and +3 coat of plates. I feel much more gear crutching with the coat of plates than with the churburg, mainly because of how non-existant the speed penalty is. Currently, the best armour class is somewhere between kuyak and coat of plates. Not the plate armours. The reason i said that plate is "only good for high STR" is because that's the only time I feel that they are too powerfull. Something most agree with me on.
As for only Str builds using Heavy Armour, did you never watch RandomDude play? He used Plate and a relatively high agi build to great effect so clearly it is not as simple as you suggest. I know others that do the same although one of them will kill me if I reveal his secret of being an agi build so I won't name names :wink:
You know what? Let's improve your suggestion a lot. Make most plate require 3 slots, but remove 10 weight on them. Let some take 1 slot and stay the same weight.
You can't be a 1hd cavalry/HA hybrid for example. Not an effective one, that is, which means something if you consider how little effective such a class would be nowadays.
Now we're getting somewhere. I would support a 10% reduction in weight per slot for all armours which would mean...This is good. What I was mainly aiming for with the "some can have different slot levels", I was mainly thinking of things like churburg and plate armour. Let the churburgs be 2 slots and reduced weight, and the plate armour be heavier, but same weight. Right now they are identical.
Heavy Kuyak = 0slot = 14.1weight
Cuir Bouilli = 1 slot = 13.6weight
Siphai Yawshan = 1slot = 17.1weight
Grey Corrazina = 2slot = 16.9weight
Plate Armour = 2slot = 18.9weight
Gothic Plate = 3slot = 17.3weight
Milanese Plate = 3slot = 19.5weight
That seems pretty balanced to me. As for placing certain armours at different slot levels, its certainly an interesting idea although i'm not sure on the balance for it. Maybe placing the item 1 slot lower negates the reduced weight. So 2slot Milanese Plate would be the full 27.9weight. We could even duplicate the item to give both options for players. I think 1 slot Milanese Plate is going a bit too far though :D.
Think you picked a bad example there as that first option is fairly good for a HA/1H hybrid.
And there is yet another problem I have with your system, and I mentioned it in my previous post already, but I'd like to point it out: your system for armour (and for weapons) has only three "steps", if the upkeep gets removed. There are one, two or three slot items, and that's it. So why in hell would someone use items at the bottom or the middle of a certain slot range, when they can use the top item? Yes, armour gets heavier, but I think most players agree that small amount of additional protection still makes up the really tiny malus on your speed.