Poll

Who was the better General?

Wellington
78 (34.5%)
Napoleon
148 (65.5%)

Total Members Voted: 225

Author Topic: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)  (Read 15699 times)

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Offline Fringe

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Re: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2013, 06:30:44 am »
0
There are, roughly speaking, two types of generals: maneuvering generals and attrition generals.

However, I think Caesar puts them both to shame, demonstrating successfully both attrition and maneuvering strategies in his campaigns to great effect.

Tis a shame Caesar died so young (well when he was 55 anyways,) a brilliant politician and military strategist. I believe Alexander also portrayed both attributes, but his actions were more militaristic and his "political" success was most likely due to his acceptance of foreign culture and his willingness to give back a measure of authority to those he conquered.

Both were brilliant men though, displaying equal ruthless characteristics as well as consistently showing off respectful attitudes. Both diligent and both may have believed themselves demigods.
But that is off topic, as this thread has nothing to do with those two men...but Napoleon did have that aura that made him God-like, making him a cut above the rest. This is what defines normal men from others, making me believe that Napoleon was the better general, even if it lead to his demise.

(click to show/hide)

These were the only two educated and accurate posts in the thread. Both were specialized generals who had the opportunity too show off their brilliance, something which is rare today.

Too tell you the truth I believe there were more brilliant man that have walked the earth, two of them mentioned earlier in my post. Even so, they were a cut above the rest, better than most at what they did...but how many times have many generals been given that opportunity? Since Napoleon seized that opportunity for himself I am more inclined too lean towards him, while Wellington was a response to him.

Napoleon defiantly strikes himself as a more interesting character, in my opinion of course.
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Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2013, 12:59:20 am »
0
Henry V and Agincourt and Crecy, oh wait what was the question?  Actually Admiral Horatio Nelson was the true genius in that war.  It was his adept maneuvering against superior naval forces that allowed and supported much of Wellington's victories in Spain and later.  Without it there would be know way the British could have maintained forces in Spain in the first place.  Probably the finest naval commander in history.  But, like always, land commanders geta ll the credit and everyon ignores what the anvy did.  Plus much of the war was also won in the overseoles of France and England and the loss of trade and money provided by naval embargoes.
Do you also type on the forum on his account?
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Offline Ujin

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Re: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2013, 12:46:50 pm »
+4

Offline Osiris

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Re: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2013, 02:23:55 pm »
0
off topic post! warn yourself ujin!
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2013, 02:19:17 pm »
+8
Quote from: The War Nerd
the British Army has had some wild ups and downs over the past 300 years, unlike their navy, which has been damn good straight through. The redcoats we faced in 1776 weren’t much of an army—the troops were seldom-fed unemployables and the officers mostly dim-bulb second sons. That was one of the reasons the US woofed so loud at the Brits leading up to 1812: we were bigger and stronger and figured if we beat them back in the 1780s it’d be a cakewalk now.

Trouble is, they were bigger and stronger too—a lot bigger and stronger. They’d been fighting the French for a decade, and what people forget is that at the start of the 19th century the French were by far, and I mean by far, the best soldiers on the planet. Nobody in the Anglo world, either us or the Brits, likes that fact, so they deal with it by saying they fought “Napoleon” as if that stubby Corsican was a one-man army, a freak of Nature doing all the bayonet charges, cavalry sweeps, and pulling the lanyards all by himself.

Truth is, the French won almost all the time in that era, even when outnumbered, like they were at Austerlitz, and against anybody—Prussians, Russians, and English. Not to mention Austrians, because frankly Austrians don’t count for anything except comic relief. If you’re in an alliance with Austria, your insurance automatically goes up because stats show you’re gonna lose, lose, lose.

Napoleon was a great general, sure, but he was one of hundreds of great commanders in the Grande Armee. It’s weird how little you read about these guys, growing up as a war nerd in an English-speaking country. You can read all you want about Wellington, a mediocre commander, but you have to work damn hard to find out about guys like Lazar Hoche, one of the great commanders in history, a stable boy who soldiered all day and did general labor for pennies all evening so he could buy books. By the time he was 25 he’d made general by sheer brains and ferocity and smashed every Prussian army he met—and somehow he still found time to die of TB before Bonaparte was even a celebrity.

The French made war with the bayonet and cannon — the musket wasn’t worth much yet. Suvorov, the one general early 19th-century French armies were afraid of, had a saying he taught his men: “The bullet is a fool, the bayonet is a fine fellow” — meaning that the bullet usually misses, but the bayonet generally goes where you stick it. Hard to miss a guy’s torso at bayonet range, but very easy to miss with an unrifled musket, especially when it’s being fired by the typical infantryman circa 1800: a half-starved drunk who’s been beaten by his sergeant every day until he’s learned to stand still while being fired at by big, slow cannonballs. Very distracting, standing in a line waiting for the order to advance or fire while you watch the guys next to you turn into hamburger helper, or find themselves a leg short when one of those big balls hits them on the bounce.

The French were easily the best at that kind of fighting, mostly because they were the first enlisted men to call each other “citizen” and treat each other with some respect. Made for good morale. Whereas the non-stop beating that was the main morale-building technique in most European armies made for guys who were too flinchy to run but not all that eager to distinguish themselves in close combat, either. Every time an army of scared conscripts fought the French, they lost, which is why the British troops under Wellington in the Peninsular War had a simple rule: Always engage the Spanish if you can, never French troops (like Monty’s rule in Africa: Always fight Mussolini’s guys, not Rommel’s Germans).

Even when French armies lost, they fought very hard and very well. In fact, you’ll notice that most of the time, when French armies of that time did lose, it was to a tag-team of two or three big powers swarming them—very, very rarely to any other single European power.

We’ve made a real effort in the Anglo world to forget the French of that time because they were scary—much scarier than the Germans were in the next century, because you couldn’t just blow them off as “evil.” All that “liberty, equality, brotherhood” stuff may seem obvious now, but it sure as Hell wasn’t obvious if you were a typical lice-ridden serf in Central Europe. The first time those poor bastards had ever heard that they were even human was when the French arrived and told them so. So once you got below the landlord class in Italy or Germany, the arrival of the revolutionary French armies was the best thing that had ever happened. Hard to get your head around this if you’re an Anglo, but the sad truth is that the bad guys won at Trafalgar and Waterloo, a gang of hereditary vampires like Mister Burns in one of those sideways admiral hats.
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Offline Casimir

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Re: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2013, 04:12:55 pm »
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I love being the bad guys, its so much more fun.
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2013, 04:34:03 pm »
+1
Interesting post. Wouldn't agree with parts of it though.

Offline Turboflex

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Re: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2013, 03:25:13 pm »
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It's true that in theory the French did some good work dismantelling the serf structures of central Europe (besides Prussia) which were odius. The end result was German unification tho, dominated by Prussian Junkers, so not so good.

Offline Leesin

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Re: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2013, 08:32:43 pm »
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I love being the bad guys, its so much more fun.

Yeah, definitely more awesome, especially when winning is considered winning no matter how fucking great the loser was ( was, past tense ).

Offline Teeth

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Re: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2013, 10:57:48 pm »
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The French were an OP warmachine ever since the revolution and accomplished in 5 year what all them scrubby absolutist kings had tried to accomplish for centuries, shitkicking every major power. Although I think The War Nerd's post is a very good one, it fails to mention that the French army was also simply fucking enormous due to mass conscription which none of the other nations could match for decades to come. 800.000 troops was quite a ridiculous number back then.

Offline Prinz_Karl

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Re: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2013, 06:45:59 pm »
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The French were an OP warmachine ever since the revolution and accomplished in 5 year what all them scrubby absolutist kings had tried to accomplish for centuries, shitkicking every major power. Although I think The War Nerd's post is a very good one, it fails to mention that the French army was also simply fucking enormous due to mass conscription which none of the other nations could match for decades to come. 800.000 troops was quite a ridiculous number back then.

But this does not deny that Napoleon and the other generals had been superior by tactic to most other armies of that time, even after the great defeat in russia.

Also to the army a high number of non french soldiers was included, by 1812 over the half.

Offline darmaster

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Re: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2013, 10:41:37 pm »
-2
lol wtf is wrong with you guys saying napoleon won just because his soldiers weren't scared lol.. that's the most idiot thing i've ever heard.
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)
« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2013, 11:46:18 am »
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lol wtf is wrong with you guys saying napoleon won just because his soldiers weren't scared lol.. that's the most idiot thing i've ever heard.

The morale of the french armies in the era is one of the reasons why they kicked so much ass, yes. 
One of the most idiot things I've ever read personally is you trying to type intelligibly in english. Please stop trying before you hurt yourself.
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Offline Abay

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Re: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)
« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2013, 11:52:59 am »
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lol, who is wellington?  :lol:
the answer is ofc napoleon  8-)
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Offline darmaster

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Re: The Better General (Wellington or Napoleon)
« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2013, 12:16:41 pm »
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The morale of the french armies in the era is one of the reasons why they kicked so much ass, yes. 
One of the most idiot things I've ever read personally is you trying to type intelligibly in english. Please stop trying before you hurt yourself.

:O That was tough.

I may have expressed my self not in a clear neither good way; I know too that french army was known for its great morale, but that implies a great general was leading them, as it was; everyone knows in fact that Napoleon was a great leader also because of his inspiring skills, which made him one of the greatest generals of history, and surely better than Wellington. As other great generals did, he lost for important mistakes, but the point is, he lost for his mistakes, not because other were better than him.
As I said, I expressed my self in a bad way, but I was referring to those who said that Napoleon won just because of french army's morale, implying that french army had it already and Napoleon did nothing more. Also emphasizing the "one" by using italicized suppose to make your post same as mine: he didn't won JUST because of french army's morale.


oh btw i love to see how people get so aggressive, arrogant and sure of themselves while behind a pc, that's such a nice thing C: i also really doubt they behave this way IRL i'm  soo much sure §:D
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