Author Topic: Suggestions to re-balance throwing.  (Read 28225 times)

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Offline Cheap_Shot

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Suggestions to re-balance throwing.
« on: May 13, 2011, 04:03:47 am »
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Update: In light of new information, the suggestions have been altered.

Quote from: Cheap_Shot
Reduce throwing base damage but have powerthrow increase damage by a larger amount per point. Remove the terrible wpf per PT and PD restriction for ranged, instead having accuracy, distance, speed, etc, start off much poorer and increase more drastically in relation to amount invested. Increase stacks, or reduce slots back to 1.

Again, if someone from the balance team could open a dialogue, either in here, or with me personally through PM's, it would be greatly appreciated.

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I am a thrower.

Throwing takes a lot of skill to do properly. Throwing weapons have very little accuracy, and the aim reticule is wide enough to climb through. As anyone who has tried range knows, people in plate can soak up a crazy amount of ammo and come at you for more. They also can move and swing unrealistically fast for people wearing a ton of metal and holding a huge weapon. Most of the time all they have to do is quickly step to the side to dodge arrows, spears, bolts, etc. When you only have 8 or so tries, it gets pretty risky to even engage anyone, especially since you have to get in close because throwing range is so poor. Reducing the stack means you use up everything you have on one person, and increasing the slot amount means you cant carry a backup weapon.

I was fine with this because at least it thinned out the number of throwers. It was annoying when everyone had a stack and it was a chuck-a-thon. A good thrower could still play and even do well and get a few kills. Increasing the number of slots required was a fair balance in my mind. Decreasing all the throwing weapons ammo seemed a little overkill, but I coped. I had enough practice throwing being a pure thrower that I managed to keep up. I put points into the two hander skill so I could pick up a weapon and defend myself once my throwing weapons, very quickly, ran out.

The problem came when I started receiving an angry red text warning at the start of every round.
YOUR THROWING SKILL IS NOT HIGH ENOUGH

Or something to that effect. I was confused, since there is very little information released after patches, and being level 30, I couldn't understand what had happened. The annoying message would assault me every time I spawned, no matter what weapons or armour I equipped. I was told that the amount of points I had in throwing was no longer high enough. With 10 powerthrow, I now needed an insane amount of wpf to make use of it. Since I was level 30 and had put points into two hander for the above reasons, I could never correct this issue. I had to struggle to level 31 and retire. Now I am faced with a problem.

I am told that I will need 140 wpf to make use of 10 powerthrow. This is unconfirmed and it could be higher, but I can't find any solid info anywhere. The problem here is that getting 140 wpf with ANY weapon requires 12 agilitiy and 4 Weapon Master. Getting 10 powerthrow requires 30 strength. To get a 30/12 split, you need to give up most of your skill points, and then say goodbye to being able to function after using up your reduced stacks of whatever.

This poster breaks down the amount of investment required vs the amount of gain: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,5399.msg92908.html#msg92908

The only way to play the way I enjoy now would be to give up having any other skills besides powerthrow and weaponmaster, and also to have no points in any other weapons besides throwing weapons, which I run out of very quickly. I can't scavenge them from others because no one else uses them now. I can't retrieve the ones I hit people with, they are gone for the round. Since the second to latest patch, a bug causes picking up a weapon off the ground to randomly remove most of your throwing weapons as well, even if you should have room for them.

Please remove the ridiculous requirements to take advantage of powerthrow. Making them multiple slots and reducing the stacks was enough to cut down on the number of people using throwing weapons. The amount that they've been nerfed now is unreasonable and they are completely useless.

My suggested balance would be to keep the reduced stacks and increased slots, but to remove the increased wpf requirement as it's unreasonable and overkill, then make heir looming throwing weapons increase the stack size by 1. Also make more wpf or more powerthrow increase accuracy a little. If you haven't tried using throwing weapons, you dont know how difficult they are to aim. They have become throw and pray weapons after all the accuracy, speed, and distance nerfs. That would make it so that most people wouldn't use throwing weapons since they would take up a lot of room and run out quickly, but dedicated throwers could get the benefits from them over time by retiring at 31 multiple times, as well as being able to pick up a weapon to defend themselves with once they run out.

Pure throwing is a playstyle I really enjoy, that really evens the battlefield. It is an effective anti-cav playstyle, and when working in teams, can often counter people charging around slaughtering entire teams in full plate. Shield builds are already a natural counter to throwers, and throwing itself is very difficult to master. I don't think this playstyle needs to be removed from the game entirely as it has. Please consider making the changes I have suggested. I would like to play the game again.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 01:32:21 am by Cheap_Shot »
I'll throw even when the weapons are gone. I can always throw punches and throw up.

Offline San

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Re: Suggestions to re-balance throwing.
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2011, 04:09:03 am »
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I believe the key lies within utilizing high throwing wpf to help the thrower, not penalize him. Like having higher wpf correlate to holding more slots or something outrageous like that.

I just feel that throwing just needs a separate gimmick that people haven't really thought of, yet.

Offline Native_ATS

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Re: Suggestions to re-balance throwing.
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2011, 04:18:03 am »
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throwing is 100% crap, and i was throwing since the start of crpg..... befor all this patchs, since it begain and over time they nerffed alot of things, but throwing was way OVER NERFFED

Offline Cheap_Shot

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Re: Suggestions to re-balance throwing.
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2011, 04:26:03 am »
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I would be perfectly fine playing with reduced stacks, increased slots, severely reduced range, and much higher risk then other ranged playstyles, if only the requirements weren't so severe and unbalanced. Removing the increased wpf need, and letting heirlooming increase stacks by 1 is all that is needed. I can cope with the reduced range, speed, and even if need be, the ridiculous accuracy (but you should seriously see how wide the reticule is. It is amazing that anyone can hit anything at all).
I'll throw even when the weapons are gone. I can always throw punches and throw up.

Offline Taggerung

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Re: Suggestions to re-balance throwing.
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2011, 04:49:18 am »
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Awesome comic.

Yea, the devs nerfed throwing to the point where it's pointless to even bother playing it. Which is super sad because I have fun playing my thrower more so than any other class. Not because it was "OP" (Which is never was, and the only ones who claim it was were too stupid to take a shitty shield) but because I enjoyed throwing war darts at people.


Sadly, the two handers bitching and moaning because something kills them killed an awesome build :(

Good luck fighting the good fight, but chadz is a douche, so good luck.

Offline 22nd_King_Plazek

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Re: Suggestions to re-balance throwing.
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2011, 04:50:59 am »
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I feel the real problem is that all of the javelin class weapons use two slots now. They were not particularly powerful before this latest release, but at least in the right situation they were useful. Now with only 3 ammo you have to question whether they have any real purpose at all.

What was overpowered about being able to have 6 javelins?!
(9 if you use a 1 slot weapon and no shield)

---
Alternatively you could implement a more expensive alternative that had more ammo (x2 at least, with matching but scaled price changes). This would result in a higher level of maintenance for that item discouraging the use of heavy armour or other expensive items whilst using it. This could cause the more dedicated throwers to take this piece resulting in a more plausible light skirmisher class if you thought that was fairer... Similar could be done to other items...

Offline Cheap_Shot

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Re: Suggestions to re-balance throwing.
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2011, 05:01:38 am »
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Shh, dont give chadz more ideas. I thought throwing had been nerfed from every single possible angle, but apparently I was wrong and my wallet hasn't been nerfed yet. It will be next probably. The changes I mentioned would be enough. This isn't a situation where removing a nerf in one place and putting one somewhere else will fix it. The problem is overnerfing. It has been nerfed in too many places.

Please please just remove the increased weapon proficiency requirement and bring back the stack increase with heirlooming. Throwing would still be underpowered but at least it would be playable again.
I'll throw even when the weapons are gone. I can always throw punches and throw up.

Offline 22nd_King_Plazek

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Re: Suggestions to re-balance throwing.
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2011, 05:05:08 am »
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Not for me, I don't like re-grinding my character and have 0 heirlooms and am gen 1 after playing since early versions. So I have no intention of starting the grind now. Every class needs to be viable without optional game mechanics like retirement and three javelins is not viable. I would rather take light armour and pay more for javelins. I would like it best if javelins went back to being one stack again though.

Offline DrKronic

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Re: Suggestions to re-balance throwing.
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2011, 05:12:09 am »
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Shh, dont give chadz more ideas. I thought throwing had been nerfed from every single possible angle, but apparently I was wrong and my wallet hasn't been nerfed yet. It will be next probably. The changes I mentioned would be enough. This isn't a situation where removing a nerf in one place and putting one somewhere else will fix it. The problem is overnerfing. It has been nerfed in too many places.

Please please just remove the increased weapon proficiency requirement and bring back the stack increase with heirlooming. Throwing would still be underpowered but at least it would be playable again.

hey was that me in the comic I loved it
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Offline Shablagoo

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Re: Suggestions to re-balance throwing.
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2011, 05:12:56 am »
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In the short time I've played I don't think I've even seen a thrower before.  I've definitely seen that big guy in plate armor with the 2h weapon in your comic though.  There's like 20 of them on every server and they all have 5:1 k/d ratios.  Glad they fixed those overpowered throwers though. 

Offline Cheap_Shot

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Re: Suggestions to re-balance throwing.
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2011, 05:16:30 am »
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Difference of opinion I suppose. I only disagree because the original problem was that throwing got too popular and everyone was hucking things around. Two handers (which make up a lot of the playerbase, including most of the devs and admins) got sick of actually dieing and the nerfs started to get rid of all the throwing. If that's the case, then the objective was to make hybrid classes that use throwing unattractive. Making the better throwing weapons take up more slots was effective, and reducing stack size pretty much eliminated throwing hybrids altogether so I guess mission accomplished. The problem in my opinion is they took it too far and now throwing weapons have no viable place in the game at all. It would be nice if the stacks hadn't been cut down, but I doubt chadz will reverse that change. The only solution I can see is to reverse the weapon proficiency increase so being a pure thrower isn't unreasonable if you decide to be, and bring backing the stack increase on heirlooms, because there should be some form of reward for making the long long grind to 31. I dont mind if being a pure thrower takes more work, as long as I can still be one.
I'll throw even when the weapons are gone. I can always throw punches and throw up.

Offline Native_ATS

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Re: Suggestions to re-balance throwing.
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2011, 05:55:02 am »
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took me 2 master work throwing lances to kill a bow men in leather
each stack takes 2 slots....and they were nerffed in damg by alot. A master work lance was the same as a nomal lance befor patch -.-
AND you cant pick it up if you wear more then 12lb worth of gear.... the aim is still just as bad and you are forced to wear light to no gear.... you have to have high pt to even do damg and at 10pt it takes 2 lances to kill a bowmen or pony... then your left with nothing.... Ya you can throw jarids but at 9pt it takes 3 jarids to kill 1 man..... ya am not joking it takes the whole stake to kill a man...so good luck and dont miss
Throwing is crap in every way.... i was once voted best thrower in this game and even i cant stand what they did to it, i re-gened and did throwing again to see if it is do able...,
i still toped the score bord but it wasnt fun at all, to do well i had to NOT THROW... i had to just relay on my 9ps and not my 9pt..... soon i was thinking why i even had pt....
alot of the time i would throw both lances into a pony and cry as it ran away with my 26,000$ worth of lances with him -.-

ups about throwing in new patch
war darts! 3xloomed wardart own at 9pt, they do like 30p damg and are so easy to throw, if you bring nothing but war darts you end up with 28 darts and you only need 3-4 to kill most people, they have a high rate of fire as well
can pwn 2 handers all day every day... just dont miss or your toast
.....that is it, there is nothing ells that is ok or good about throwing

bad side to throwing
cant wear gear if you want to throw lances, need high wpf yet cant get it if you still want the throwing item to hurt....
at 9pt (27str) it takes a whole stack to kill a man, (so you have to be way better then me and not miss 1 shot)
all mid to high throwing takes 2 slots
damg nerff on all throwing weapons! even rocks where nerffed? ROCK WHERE NERFFED!
Sheilds will reck your shit.... any sheild pwns lances,jarids,axes....(since u need all your weapons to hit... if u waste one on a sheild your boned)
cav recks throwing hard now... damg nerff and ammo nerff make throwing at cav a hard fight...
bowmen reck throwing, good luck killing that bowmen with ur weak ass jarids, dont miss...


Offline Rumblood

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Re: Suggestions to re-balance throwing.
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2011, 06:16:53 am »
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Quite a well done case, you do the throwing community a favor indeed. A very good read and suggestions.
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Offline Classical

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Re: Suggestions to re-balance throwing.
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2011, 06:33:11 am »
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I support this, what the fuck development team?

Offline San

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Re: Suggestions to re-balance throwing.
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2011, 06:34:23 am »
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ups about throwing in new patch
war darts!

Hate to break it to you, but. . .

They're nerfed, too.

Throwing daggers anyone?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 06:36:23 am by san. »