Varyag's testimony on the current state of cRPG

[chadz]

Something else I'd like to add about the grind:

I don't think it's necessary evil. I also like the false sense of achievement I can gain in flash games. You know, level up here, distribute point there, whoops next level takes a bit longer, whoops enemies are a bit stronger, but hey, I'm tougher by my level up, awesome!

Maybe not the best game design, but it sure works.

However: that is singleplayer. If you stop, fair enough. You can come back anytime you want, you are as strong as before, as are the enemies, no damage done.

Now think multiplayer.

If you don't see the problem in people spending more time gaining an uncatchable advantage - or, as was with the generation bonus, getting an exponential advantage (who the fuck came up with that idea?!), then please, stay away from game design.

People are so influenced by WoW and all the other MMORPGS, but there is a difference: they do it because they want money. They want to hook you with the grind so you keep playing and paying, playing and paying. If you stop playing, they tell you "hey fucker, you're getting behind! Is that what you want? Get back here!"

This is *not* my intention. But if you want, I'll set up a pay2play version of cRPG where leveling is slower, there is no upkeep, and you can grind all day long so the new peasants can't harm you
Edit: also, you get 70% xp by killing people, 30% xp by being in the area of the kill. And you get something extra for the price: the game is patch free! Yes, I promise I'd never patch it once it's working!

[Banok]

sad thing is you would make alot of money.

but yeah still too much grind in this game imo.

[JOPOTINTTI]

i 1 for one rly liked the slow grind , and level 40 ubertanks because prepatch there really was challenging opponents, with the patch now , its like native , no one can stand moar than 2-5 hits , depending on any weapon , i must say i miss the elephant ,transistionallolstabbers,sword&board tincans , peasant wars , just because it was challenging

[Nessaj]

XP abooze
How can the XP boost be an 'uncatchable advantage' there is a limit to how many items one can wear and honestly (IMO) it does not make a big difference if someone is in fully heirloomed gear vs someone who isn't - now even more than ever with the weapon nerfs across the board. Generation 15, given no heirloom screw-ups, would net someone 4 fully heirloomed armor parts and 1 weapon, any generation above is redundant in-game, sure you could heirloom a new weapon and armor fast but so what? You can't wear 30 heirlooms at the same time - so unless we would see the trade feature later then there aren't any game-breaking issues to be addressed here. A cap should be in place though but at least 100% gain as a max.

Screw heirlooms
I personally never cared about heirlooms since they don't work in Strategus, but I did appreciate the XP bonus because it allowed me to experiment with new specializations and after having spent a decent amount of time on the game I do not think it is unfair to be able to faster remake your character - something that a ton of games need. Right now CRPG _IS_ like WoW, in WoW you reach a certain point and there's no more to do until new content is released - same thing in CRPG now, when you reach 31 there isn't anything else to do except wait for Strat to open so you have a purpose, no reason to retire because it takes ages to get up again so better not be signed up for a tournament etc + have tons of spare-time to level.

As for the actual heirlooms, if they scare you so much there's a million other ideas to implement that'd work much better -- I suggest a heirloom limit-- that would fix everything and also force people to consider what to heirloom at higher generations - and if they decide to heirloom something after having reached the cap they'd be forced to sell off an old heirloom = balance. Retirement without heirlooming should be available of course then.

Otherwise so far I like the patch except for the XP-gen nerf .

The (imo) to do list:

• Heirloom reset
• Spec reset
• Re-evaluate XP-Gen bonus
• Introduce heirloom limit (!)

PS: Thanks for all the hard work with the mod, it is very well appreciated, had more fun in M&B than any other games for like a decade (and I work in the industry ).

Edit: Typo.

[Prpavi]

its way too laggy for the moment for me.

i even reinstalled the windows this morning just for cRPG and still its the same.

my pings are fine usually around 30 altho they have jumped up to 50ish but thats still ok.

donk know whats wrong, my PC is more tha capable to play this game with all the seeings turned all they way yet i turned it all down/off.

i feel like im haveing huge lag spikes and stuttering of massive proportions.

makes me a sad panda 

[Tydeus]

XP abooze
How can the XP boost be an 'uncatchable advantage' there is a limit to how many items one can wear and honestly (IMO) it does not make a big difference if someone is in fully heirloomed gear vs someone who isn't - now even more than ever with the weapon nerfs across the board. Generation 15, given no heirloom screw-ups, would net someone 4 fully heirloomed armor parts and 1 weapon, any generation above is redundant in-game, sure you could heirloom a new weapon and armor fast but so what? You can't wear 30 heirlooms at the same time - so unless we would see the trade feature later then there aren't any game-breaking issues to be addressed here. A cap should be in place though but at least 100% gain as a max.

Screw heirlooms
I personally never cared about heirlooms since they don't work in Strategus, but I did appreciate the XP bonus because it allowed me to experiment with new specializations and after having spent a decent amount of time on the game I do not think it is unfair to be able to faster remake your character - something that a ton of games need. Right now CRPG _IS_ like WoW, in WoW you reach a certain point and there's no more to do until new content is released - same thing in CRPG now, when you reach 31 there isn't anything else to do except wait for Strat to open so you have a purpose, no reason to retire because it takes ages to get up again so better not be signed up for a tournament etc + have tons of spare-time to level.

As for the actual heirlooms, if they scare you so much there's a million other ideas to implement that'd work much better -- I suggest a heirloom limit-- that would fix everything and also force people to consider what to heirloom at higher generations - and if they decide to heirloom something after having reached the cap they'd be forced to sell off an old heirloom = balance. Retirement without heirlooming should be available of course then.

Otherwise so far I like the patch except for the XP-gen nerf .

The (imo) to do list:

• Heirloom reset
• Spec reset
• Re-evaluate XP-Gen bonus
• Introduce heirloom limit (!)

PS: Thanks for all the hard work with the mod, it is very well appreciated, had more fun in M&B than any other games for like a decade (and I work in the industry ).

Edit: Typo.

This, the whole fucking post word for word(minus an heirloom reset, though I could live with it if the xp base was where I felt it should be). Especially the emboldened statements, I don't think these concepts have either been stated yet or are being considered enough by the general forum population.

its way too laggy for the moment for me.
i even reinstalled the windows this morning just for cRPG and still its the same.
my pings are fine usually around 30 altho they have jumped up to 50ish but thats still ok.
donk know whats wrong, my PC is more tha capable to play this game with all the seeings turned all they way yet i turned it all down/off.
i feel like im haveing huge lag spikes and stuttering of massive proportions.

I've been getting some interesting lag on the NA 100 man and Siege when they're high(60+) population, since the patch. If I do a fast feint, chances are my 2nd swing won't go through, it won't register the swing at all(packet loss?). Blocking also has a bit of a delay to it as well, and even with my usual 50-70 ping, at 90+ players, it's completely unplayable, unless I forsake blocks ad just pray on the weak(not fun).

[VicTheBear]

(click to show/hide)

Something else I'd like to add about the grind:

I don't think it's necessary evil. I also like the false sense of achievement I can gain in flash games. You know, level up here, distribute point there, whoops next level takes a bit longer, whoops enemies are a bit stronger, but hey, I'm tougher by my level up, awesome!

Maybe not the best game design, but it sure works.

However: that is singleplayer. If you stop, fair enough. You can come back anytime you want, you are as strong as before, as are the enemies, no damage done.

Now think multiplayer.

If you don't see the problem in people spending more time gaining an uncatchable advantage - or, as was with the generation bonus, getting an exponential advantage (who the fuck came up with that idea?!), then please, stay away from game design.

People are so influenced by WoW and all the other MMORPGS, but there is a difference: they do it because they want money. They want to hook you with the grind so you keep playing and paying, playing and paying. If you stop playing, they tell you "hey fucker, you're getting behind! Is that what you want? Get back here!"

This is *not* my intention. But if you want, I'll set up a pay2play version of cRPG where leveling is slower, there is no upkeep, and you can grind all day long so the new peasants can't harm you
Edit: also, you get 70% xp by killing people, 30% xp by being in the area of the kill. And you get something extra for the price: the game is patch free! Yes, I promise I'd never patch it once it's working!

Hahaha, money farm.

 

LEECHING!

[Topsnus]

Something else I'd like to add about the grind:

I don't think it's necessary evil. I also like the false sense of achievement I can gain in flash games. You know, level up here, distribute point there, whoops next level takes a bit longer, whoops enemies are a bit stronger, but hey, I'm tougher by my level up, awesome!

Maybe not the best game design, but it sure works.

However: that is singleplayer. If you stop, fair enough. You can come back anytime you want, you are as strong as before, as are the enemies, no damage done.

Now think multiplayer.

If you don't see the problem in people spending more time gaining an uncatchable advantage - or, as was with the generation bonus, getting an exponential advantage (who the fuck came up with that idea?!), then please, stay away from game design.

People are so influenced by WoW and all the other MMORPGS, but there is a difference: they do it because they want money. They want to hook you with the grind so you keep playing and paying, playing and paying. If you stop playing, they tell you "hey fucker, you're getting behind! Is that what you want? Get back here!"

This is *not* my intention. But if you want, I'll set up a pay2play version of cRPG where leveling is slower, there is no upkeep, and you can grind all day long so the new peasants can't harm you
Edit: also, you get 70% xp by killing people, 30% xp by being in the area of the kill. And you get something extra for the price: the game is patch free! Yes, I promise I'd never patch it once it's working!

Why don't you go back to the old system, and put a level cap at 35. Make retirement for heirlooms only, since they aren't a very big deal. And also implement an extensive ranking system. Make it so that it shows your rank in game, on the forums, and anywhere else you can think to put it. Then, make it so that when you hit level 35 (or 31, whatever you decided to make the level cap) it stops your statistics from being affected. So if you want to be competitive in the rankings, you have to retire. Retiring would be a full reset, gold included, maybe even make people have to buy the heirlooms they "unlocked." The point of this would be to keep people from flying through the generations too quickly.

This system would work because the heirlooms, and competitive showy side would probably be enough to keep most of the 15 gen types retiring. Yet the heirlooms wouldn't be so unfair as to give them a ridiculous edge. Then we could go back to the old system of buying the equipment once, and actually earning it. Thoughts?

(in this idea retiring gives ONLY a heirloom, and allows you to continue in the leader-boards. There is NO exp or gold bonus for later gens)

[Keshian]

Honestly, the changes were overall good and needed, kinda  wish it was a little easier level gaining for new players, but otherwise great overall.  I disagree with all these convoluted plans to somehow revert back or revamp everything into something you guys want by respeccing/reheirlooming/wiping, most of the playerbase doesn't seem to really support that.  chadz, keep up the good work and appreciate more updates and looking forward to strategus.

[Nasturtium]

+1 kesh, well spoken as usual.

 You will have to pardon me for whoring this idea, but I think its a really good one.

  I still think a good solution for letting grinders grind, and reduce the ammount of heirlooms would be to introduce rare and unique gear that players would need to trade in one, two, or three masterwork heirlooms to get.

 If I had the chance to trade my hierlooms for some bit of armor that few other players had, or an icon on a pole I could wave around and feel important, it would give me motivation to grind out that net gen.

  Something many rpg games are doing is the whole "crafting" thing, you grind for components, then you combine these to make items. This is the seed of that idea, another bit of metagame to keep us coming back for more.

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,4241.0.html

[Corrado_Decimo]

Something else I'd like to add about the grind:

I don't think it's necessary evil. I also like the false sense of achievement I can gain in flash games. You know, level up here, distribute point there, whoops next level takes a bit longer, whoops enemies are a bit stronger, but hey, I'm tougher by my level up, awesome!

Maybe not the best game design, but it sure works.

However: that is singleplayer. If you stop, fair enough. You can come back anytime you want, you are as strong as before, as are the enemies, no damage done.

Now think multiplayer.

If you don't see the problem in people spending more time gaining an uncatchable advantage - or, as was with the generation bonus, getting an exponential advantage (who the fuck came up with that idea?!), then please, stay away from game design.

People are so influenced by WoW and all the other MMORPGS, but there is a difference: they do it because they want money. They want to hook you with the grind so you keep playing and paying, playing and paying. If you stop playing, they tell you "hey fucker, you're getting behind! Is that what you want? Get back here!"

This is *not* my intention. But if you want, I'll set up a pay2play version of cRPG where leveling is slower, there is no upkeep, and you can grind all day long so the new peasants can't harm you
Edit: also, you get 70% xp by killing people, 30% xp by being in the area of the kill. And you get something extra for the price: the game is patch free! Yes, I promise I'd never patch it once it's working!

i think we all agree with your line. that's why i hope to make people think about a faster 1-30 or 1-40 leveling with no heirlooms or limited to 3 or 6.
because people start playing for fun, they enjoy the game, the leveling. then lots of people fall (like i did in the past) in the retirement for heirloom/xp bonus whirlpool. then some of these players, just play to grind and not more play for fun. that's why you see a lot people going mad on public servers for a TK, for an afk player, for a nickname they don't like. i'm pretty sure the biggest part of trolls just troll because they amassed so much stress, so much few sleep to play, that they go mad for the smaller things.

when i grinded 4 months to achieve my OP wpf stacker strength build, i was much stressed. i enjoyd the game yes. but not as much as when i came back two weeks ago. i really enjoyed the game without the grind stress behind.

i really hope the XP system and heirloom system will change. i'll not play to grind anymore. i'll only play to enjoy public server matches, clanwars and strategus if will come back.
now i want to respec my useless thrower (not really useful when can only carry a pack of jarids and a poleaxe as the english bill cannot be sheated) but going from 29 to 31 just take too much time so, i'll come back to make XP when the things change. now i'll only play my main two handed in the shogunate tournament.

i had a chat in TS with a mindless grinder you all know. was friday night. he said he play and retire play and retire because he don't have any other things to do. that's sad because i enjoy going out with my blues band, i enjoy the time with my daughter and wife, i enjoy working on my own things. and SOMETIME when i have time, i log in a crpg, or i catch my mates to do a clanwar. and i play because i really WANT TO.

now chadz just please explain... if you really think what you wrote, why the game system have a unlimited grind? pre 0.200 you said "the game will have some sort of levelcap but to reach level 30-32 will be a piece of cake." now that's false. 1-31 for a gen1 takes forever. 1-31 for a gen10 with equip and money take less. people go around with 50 standard body armor +12 from heirlooms, titanium shields... please just share your future plans with us.

[Corrado_Decimo]

Make it so that it shows your rank in game, on the forums, and anywhere else you can think to put it. Then, make it so that when you hit level 35 (or 31, whatever you decided to make the level cap) it stops your statistics from being affected. So if you want to be competitive in the rankings, you have to retire. Retiring would be a full reset, gold included, maybe even make people have to buy the heirlooms they "unlocked." The point of this would be to keep people from flying through the generations too quickly.

there will be people playing 18 hours a day anyway, breaking the "fair-advantage" limit. and to stay in the line, the mass will try to do the same to catch up.

IMO bad idea.

[Topsnus]

+1 kesh, well spoken as usual.

 You will have to pardon me for whoring this idea, but I think its a really good one.

  I still think a good solution for letting grinders grind, and reduce the ammount of heirlooms would be to introduce rare and unique gear that players would need to trade in one, two, or three masterwork heirlooms to get.

 If I had the chance to trade my hierlooms for some bit of armor that few other players had, or an icon on a pole I could wave around and feel important, it would give me motivation to grind out that net gen.

  Something many rpg games are doing is the whole "crafting" thing, you grind for components, then you combine these to make items. This is the seed of that idea, another bit of metagame to keep us coming back for more.

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,4241.0.html

See, thats why i brought up the leader-board idea. It would probably motivate you to retire, without giving you a ridiculous advantage. Win-Win

[Krex]

Didnt have time to read the whole topic,but I will do that tomorrow.
What I would like to say is:

cRPG is clearly loosing it’s magic, and this is sad.

Also,

(click to show/hide)

Dat necro.

[Gravoth_iii]

So whats the point again in pointing out that the mod is dying? Mod is dead has been said throughout the entire lifetime of the mod jokingly, sure, but now everyone is calling it out that its dying, as if theres a way to stop it.

30-50 players is hey-okay with me, i will play till the servers are completely dried out and empty anyways. Just enjoy it while its still there.