Author Topic: The art of throwing II  (Read 27517 times)

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Offline Lactose_the_intolerant

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The art of throwing II
« on: April 01, 2012, 04:03:16 am »
+17
Hello People.

When i started to be interested in throwing, I came in this section to find a guide about throwing. i found one who was a bit out of date, so it was not much help. And as i played my throwing build, that i made as i was going, many people asked me about throwing, about my build etc...

So i wish to share what i know and my opinion about throwing to help any people in need.

I The message
I have seen, to my despair, tincans throwing jarids, people talking about a "message" but not taking any notice. So what is this message?
I cant recall exactly what it says, something like : "your weapon proficency in trhowing is to low to blablablablabla" in bright red at the bottom of your screen.
What does this mean? Bacisally it's a penality to save us form tincans thorwing some heavy weapons, if you see it, your effective wpf (so wpf invested in throwing) is too low for your amount of PT.

I get the impression but, i could be wrong, that the more you gone over the limit, the more you get screwed
I see 3 direct consequences:
-You don't get the message : everyone is happy, beautiful and nice
-you get the message but you can pick your ammo up again
-You get the message and you cant pick your ammo up again (FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU)

I believe that if your WPF is slightly to low it doesnt matter to much, i did some testing on EU3 where the damage output was the same and nearly even more when i had wpf slighlty lower then required then if i had the right WPF.

But there are penalities if you try to play smart with WPF, and there are many and you dont want to f*** with it.
Here are some i recall, there maybe more :
-Damage nerf
-accuracy nerf
-upkeep rape
-cant pick your ammo up
(im pretty sure theres something missing)

now i shall explain in the next section how to be master of your WPF

II Understanding WPF


Now, for WPF, this is very dependent of what you want to throw, if you want to be a pure thrower, a hybrid, the armor you want to wear (i had a set of lordly gear so i wished to wear it). And it all comes down to this :

Throw Level = 13 * Desired Effective Power Throw Level + Throwing Armor Weight

where

Throwing Armor Weight = head armor weight * 6 + torso armor weight * 2 + leg armor weight * 2 + hand armor weight * 8 - 10


"WTF?  :shock: " might be your reaction to this. Let me explain!
Throwing is dependent of Two factors, your powerthrow and your armor!

The powerthrow factor

Throw Level = 13 * Desired Effective Power Throw Level

You must remember that it depend really on your powerthrow in your build and not the powerthrow of the weapon you want to throw! That means throwing some jarids with 5 powerthrow will be diffirent not only in damage, but in wpf, then throwing jarids with 6 pt! This is why it is important to plan your wpf in advance.

examples :

I want to throw fransiscas (require 2 pt), i have 2 pt in my build : 13*2 = 26 WPF
i want to throw fransiscas, but i want them to deal more damage, i get myself 6 PT : 13*6 = 78 wpf

I want to throw stones with 1 PT = 13 wpf
I want to knock people's brains out with my stones with 7 PT = 13 * 7 = 91 WPF

You can have a 10 PT build, but with 13 effective wpf, you will throw as if you had only 1 PT. So you lose 9 levels of PT.
Simple as that

The armor factor

The powerthrow factor was only the first part of the calculation, so if you want to throw naked you can take in account only the first part  :P

Throwing Armor Weight = head armor weight * 6 + torso armor weight * 2 + leg armor weight * 2 + hand armor weight * 8 - 10

Pretty much simple, you take the weight of the head armor you whish to use and multiply it by 6, then take your body armor and multiply it by 2 etc...and then take off 10

You'll notice that the head armor and the hand armor is the most penalising so dont go to heavy on it!
I'll take my character as an example

(roman helmet with veil 2.1*6+ palace guard 10.8*2 + splintered greaves over mail 2.1*2 + mail gauntlets 0.5 *8)-10 =32.4 My armor "weighs" 32.4 wpf

I use 6 power throw i then require = 32.4 + 78 =110.4 so i need 111 WPF for throwing

There you go !  8-)

III Build

Now for you build, all depend on what powerthrow you decide to have, if your a hybrid or not, if your a hybrid it's up to you to find your balance, but remember if you are making your build as you go and fancy spending an extra skill point in PT, you'll need more WPF in throwing!

I believe going pure thrower isnt the best of ideas because you have to be close to the battle, and at one point things will get dirty, so you need to be able to put up a fight, also you can run out quickly of stuff to throw really damn fast!

Here are some builds you can try out :

my suggestion :
(click to show/hide)

this is the suggestion of Slamz

(click to show/hide)

Here is Spawny's suggestion :
(click to show/hide)

Note : If you compare my suggestion with Spawny's build suggestion you'll notice that they are the same except for one level difference. I come to beleive this is the perfect hybrid.


Throwing weapons

Now there are different throwing weapons, the most popular right now is the heavy throwing axe. Some are good, some are pretty useless. I'll mostly talk about the ones i have a bit of experience with.

The Suriken family In my opinion, Useless. I tried to take only shurikens for the lulz, knowing there is 8 per stack, I ended up with 32 shurikens  :lol: ! Result?
I wounded one peasent. Not worth it. But I read somewhere Thomek uses them to harass archers. It is true when you come to think about it, that the shurikens are one of the most fastest throwing weapon there is and there are 8 of them per stack, so you could end up with 16 of them. And those are perfect to harass those pesky archers, trying to fire at you when you get close, or to stop them running away. Just spam them and most archers will lose their grip and fuck up.

The throwing axe There is no reason to use this weapon except if your build and wpf doesnt allow you to get it's older brother : the Heavy throwing axe

The Heavy throwing axe One of the best throwing weapons you can get. The best cut damage, perfect for hunting horses and mid armor enemies (and peasents). They have a slow missile speed so anticipation is the key. They will fall to the ground very fast so aiming high is the key, this also allows you in clusterfucks to toss your axes over your teamates and it will fall down on enemies. They are worth the investment in wpf and 4 skill points.

Jarids You are starting to invest in throwing and the first sacrifices are there, you cant wear super heavy equipment. But jarids are nasty beasts, they pierce nastily enemy armor, people will hate you! They have good accuracy and flight speed. not so good for killing horses but they do pretty well! Try to aim the enemy tincans!

throwing spears Lets face it, they have worse accuracy speed, damage everything etc...and cost 1 PT more! Why take these then? because you get one more spear per stack to throw!

throwing lance The king, insane damage, will take any tincan in 2hit in the body. Sadly it doesnt one hit anything except very lately armored foes or peasents. They make also really good melee weapons!

(weapons part still to be worked on)
Special thanks to :
- My patience
- Thing
- Slamz
- Spawny



Ps : I'll edit my thread, there is more to come! keep in touch! (im tired!)







« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 09:27:09 pm by Lactose_the_intolerant »

Offline RibaldRon

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Re: The art of throwing II
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2012, 04:49:57 am »
0
Ahh, I always wondered what that text was about.


Thanks for your testing, you make me want to play a thrower.  :lol:
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Offline Slamz

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Re: The art of throwing II
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2012, 06:46:39 am »
+1
My advice for hybrids:

Shielder = 18/18, PT 4
2H / polearm = 24/12, PT 4

Although you really can't go wrong with 18/18 in any case.  The extra WM will give you more wpf to put into your melee weapon of choice.

More than PT 4 is too costly, in my opinion, unless you are going to go "pure thrower".  I've tried a variety of hybrid builds and if you want good a good balance, stop at PT 4 and loom up some heavy throwing axes.  That way you don't have to cough up so much wpf to use them (and pick them back up).

PT 5 is tempting because jarids are relatively common (and you can pick them up and throw them back at people) but it's a high price in wpf.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 06:48:35 am by Slamz »
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Offline martyrAD

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Re: The art of throwing II
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2012, 08:51:51 am »
+1
be pro, go 27/9.
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Offline Lactose_the_intolerant

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Re: The art of throwing II
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2012, 01:11:23 pm »
0
I'll be editing the builds as soon as i can be bothered!  :lol:

(and order it a bit)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 01:58:32 pm by Lactose_the_intolerant »

Offline Ronin

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Re: The art of throwing II
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2012, 01:19:49 am »
0
I do have a few questions regarding throwing.
What is the use of throwing? What is the adventages and disadventages when compared to other ranged classes. The ones I know are:
Pros
1-you can use it with a shield, unlike other types of ranged combat.
2-high damage, fast speed. So, best dps (throwing 5 darts can be thrown in a very short time, while 5 arrows took some time to fire. Not even mentioning arbalest)
3-Melee mode (perhaps can be counted as a factor as may help.)

Cons
1-shortest range.
2-very low ammo
3-screw me if I'm wrong, but it has very strict armor restrictions.
4- requires both pt and wpf to be used. (not very important in my opinion, but a factor is a factor.)

I personally love throwing. It is true fun to use. But I still can not see what actually makes it effective?

Also, I am planning to go for a thrower next gen. So which one should I prefer? A shielder/thrower or pole/thrower. Shielder seems more reasonable, as shield is one of the adventages of throwing. It seems wiser to have a shield, rather than not having any. My planned build is: 24/12 8PT, 8PS, 4 Shield, 4 Athl, 4 WM.
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Re: The art of throwing II
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2012, 05:08:11 am »
0
I personally love throwing. It is true fun to use. But I still can not see what actually makes it effective?

Ability to hit someone that is out of melee range.

Whether you are softening up an opponent to reduce the number of hits you need to kill him
Stun someone that allows others to hit them
Stun or kill someone that is attempting to flee
Stop backpeddeler and make him move forward to engage you

Throwing is EXCELLENT & natural hybrid choice for shielders.  You can threaten other ranged attackers behind the safety of your shield, stop people who are faster than you and soften up hard targets

Offline martyrAD

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Re: The art of throwing II
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2012, 07:29:39 am »
0
You can threaten other ranged attackers behind the safety of your shield, stop people who are faster than you and soften up hard targets
THIS!
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Offline Spawny

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Re: The art of throwing II
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2012, 08:48:58 am »
0
About the red text, it's plain and simple:

If you see it, your effective wpf (so wpf invested in throwing minus armour penalty) is too low for your amount of PT.

If you have PT 6 requirement throwing weapons and 6 PT and you see the message, you can't pick your throwing weapons back up. Because at that moment you're running around with less than 6 PT and thus don't meet the requirement for the weapon you just threw.

This bit is important:

Throw Level = 13 * Desired Effective Power Throw Level + Throwing Armor Weight

where

Throwing Armor Weight = head armor weight * 6 + torso armor weight * 2 + leg armor weight * 2 + hand armor weight * 8 - 10


You can have a 10 PT build, but with 13 effective wpf, you will throw as if you had only 1 PT. So you lose 9 levels of PT.
Simple as that.
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Offline Ronin

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Re: The art of throwing II
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2012, 01:31:10 pm »
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The main thing that confuses me is, at least 50% of thrower players don't use a shield. Isn't that not benefitting from a natural adventage? I see they are truely effective to their team, although I can't actually understand why.

There are three types of throwers I can see on servers:
1-Pure thrower(Javelineer). These guys just throw big, nasty lances at you. They are mostly succesful at doing so, but they die very easily when caught off guard. One example is mr socks and the other was juicy death, before (s)he is retired.
2-2h/pole guy with throwing. Also ninjas are in this catagory, even though they have a very different set of skills; the strategy is same and simple. Charge and throw some nasty beings at the enemy, pull out your melee weapon when you are close enough and begin to slash. In here, I can see the throwing is used as a sidearm; mostly to weaken enemy or threaten the enemy who are trying to run away.
3-Shielder-Thrower(Huscarl). These guys carry a shield to benefit from one of the adventages of throwing. They also tend to have one handed proficiency that they either pull out their swords in close combat, or use their throwing axes in melee form. They are good defensive units, but they are a bit slow when it comes down to movement, which forces them to be in close combat.

There is another class that might be possible, but something very unique.
4-True spartan. These guys use shield and polearm alike, like a true hoplite. Yet, they can also throw some javelins, lances, spears at the enemy. If needed, they can put their shields on back to enhance their melee fighting abilities. They have polearm and throwing proficiency. Also, these are ideal for skirmishing as they are true anti-cav fighters, have the ability to distract the enemy, and can protect themselves against enemy archers.

Well, I see most of them do well. Even the true spartan seems so strong, but a bit risky to unexperienced players. Even though they all use throwing, they seem to excel at different situations.

You guys seem to be more experienced than me in crpg. What I'm asking is what are these situations? So that way, I can choose which one fits me best; so as many people like me will have the same knowledge. Also, what set of skills would be best for those builds; would be most appreciated.
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Offline Herkkutatti

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Re: The art of throwing II
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2012, 02:45:42 pm »
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The art of trolling more likely
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Re: The art of throwing II
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2012, 03:39:13 pm »
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I've played a lot of throwing in the past, but have given up on it after a number of nerfs.
Throwing is better now, but I can't be bothered to pick it up again.
Pure throwing has always been my choice, but that's personal. A month or so ago I made an STF alt with heavy throwing axes (pure thrower) and that worked out nicely, but it was VERY useless when out of ammo and that tends to happen quite often when you're a pure thrower.

So, this build (note it's a level 31 build, making it that much better) is what I came up with for a hybrid:

Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 21
Agility: 18
Hit points: 56
Skills to attributes: 6
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 7
Shield: 0
Athletics: 6
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 7
Weapon Master: 6

Polearm: 111*
Throwing: 130

*The polearm wpf can be swapped out for 1h or 2h, but since most high damage throwing weapons use polearm wpf in melee mode I picked this.

Pro's:
- Fast on your feet, as you will be wearing light armour to reduce the weight penalty as much as possible.
- Can use just about every polearm you can scavenge when you run out of stuff to throw
- Can use all throwing weapons, so it's possible to scavenge more ammo from other throwers
- High damage, making your hits actually hurt a bit
- Horse killer
- Can switch roles when you get bored of being a thrower. Just use one of the many useful polearms.

Con's:
- level 31 build
- No IF, so not that much IF (partially offset by the low armour. Low armour makes IF a bit useless)
- No shield, so weak vs ranged

Throwing gear:
Jarids/Spears/Javelins/Lances. Will all work well. Either bring a back up weapon or 1 throwing lance. The throwing lances are actually quite good in melee mode and 7 PS will make the stab hurt. On top of that, it's priceless to fight someone in melee, see them back peddle and then throw a lance in their face.
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Offline Lactose_the_intolerant

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Re: The art of throwing II
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2012, 05:01:16 pm »
0
thanks for the input, I'm updating my topic a bit more right now

edit : Updated, more to come still
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 05:33:57 pm by Lactose_the_intolerant »

Offline Turboflex

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Re: The art of throwing II
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2012, 07:09:27 pm »
0
Tips on throwing in combat:

Aiming
-Throwing weapons don't line up exactly with crosshair. They are kind of coming from a bit to upper right of it (where your arm releases) to center, a bit of a natural leftward drift in their trajectory from release to center. It's kind of hard to explain, but be aware of it and it might help you slightly adjust your aim.

Relative speed bonus
-Your running speed DOES NOT give your weapons any damage bonus!!! So you do NOT gain ANY benefit from running towards your target, it is only detrimentral since it doubles the size of your reticule. Often you will have to keep moving because of combat situation or archer fire, but if there's no archers around stand still and throw whenever possible.
-Now your TARGET's speed DOES effect damage. If a guy is running towards you, it will add, if he is running away, it will detract. I wouldn't worry about this too much tho, I've never held off on nailing someone cuz of it, but it is always nice to see some dummy bee-lining at you, knowing he's just gonna make it more painful.

Timing
Always want to get someone as they approach, to soften them up. Don't get greedy though, I've died way too many times trying to do a second or first shot when I should've stopped one earlier. This is a hard lesson you probably have to learn yourself. If you do get caught, but have time to react to save yourself, be patient, don't just immediately switch to melee weapon cuz that's a free hit on you if it's timed poorly (which a panic switch will definitely be). First thing is hit "X" to turn your throwing weapon to a melee weapon. This will let you block with it, and you won't get stunned if he bumps into you (mechanic put in place to prevent ranged from point blank shotgunning people). Keep blocking or holding up your shield, you want to get to the edge of his melee range, then right after you block a swing, jump and switch weapons. This will give you the distance to avoid taking a hit while you switch.

Offline JackieChan

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Re: The art of throwing II
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2012, 11:09:59 pm »
0
I tried shielder/thrower with that build:
    Strength: 21
    Agility: 15
    Hit points: 56

    Skills to attributes: 2

    Ironflesh: 0
    Power Strike: 7
    Shield: 5
    Athletics: 5
    Riding: 0
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 0
    Power Throw: 7
    Weapon Master: 5

    One Handed: 105
    Two Handed: 1
    Polearm: 1
    Archery: 1
    Crossbow: 1
    Throwing: 120


I liked that build, as i could use throwing lance and either use it as a hoplite or shuck it and 1 shot people/cav. However i coulnt play with heavy armor since it had to much weight === Wpp reduction
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 11:11:09 pm by JackieChan »
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