Author Topic: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?  (Read 14475 times)

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Offline EponiCo

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Re: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?
« Reply #75 on: February 07, 2011, 10:18:16 am »
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I'm pretty sure you can keep the sniper crossbow+steel bolts indefinitely. It's only 20k. My usual battle setup costs 28k without horse. Warbow+Bodkins is just minimally cheaper, but requires more skill points to use. In any case a meleer has a lot more gold to spend on his weapon and armor than someone who takes range with him, which is as it should be imo.

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Re: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?
« Reply #76 on: February 07, 2011, 11:58:56 am »
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You can't kite like archers, you need to fight melee as a crossbowman therefore you'll want some armour greater than pilgrim robes unless you want agi builds to 1-shot your poor ass.
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Offline Heroin

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Re: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?
« Reply #77 on: February 07, 2011, 12:00:36 pm »
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I'm pretty sure you can keep the sniper crossbow+steel bolts indefinitely. It's only 20k. My usual battle setup costs 28k without horse. Warbow+Bodkins is just minimally cheaper, but requires more skill points to use. In any case a meleer has a lot more gold to spend on his weapon and armor than someone who takes range with him, which is as it should be imo.

1. ONLY 20k? That price tag makes a sniper xbow and steel bolts the single most expensive weapon in all of crpg. And with a performance that is at the very least debatable, the price tag is unquestionably high for what you get. You just compared a single weapon to your entire gear loadout, wherein the prices were similar, and you stated that you felt this was as it should be. LAWL, wow.

2. Best xbow+bolts = 20k. Best bow + arrows = 13k. That is not a minimal difference, as you said. With the other 7k, an xbowman could get a decent set of light/medium armor, which makes sense, since the nature of xbows nearly demands that an xbowman enter into melee far more often than archers.

3. Even if the xbow + steel bolts was the same price as the best bow + best arrows(13k), a pure melee would still have more gold to pay for his weapons/armor(+13k). I think this is not only acceptable, but far more balanced than what we currently have.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 12:01:52 pm by Heroin »
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Offline Brutal

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Re: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?
« Reply #78 on: February 07, 2011, 12:46:10 pm »
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1.False.  heavy lance + courser is moar expansive

2.xbow doesn't have to spend any skill points, that is  a Huge difference

3. If price are so high it was to avoid the old prepatch way where everybody and their mama had a xbow. It's the same for cav...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 12:50:14 pm by Brutal »

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Re: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?
« Reply #79 on: February 07, 2011, 01:05:00 pm »
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1.False.  heavy lance + courser is moar expansive

2.xbow doesn't have to spend any skill points, that is  a Huge difference

3. If price are so high it was to avoid the old prepatch way where everybody and their mama had a xbow. It's the same for cav...

1. You're comparing a mount + weapon to a weapon. That isn't an accurate comparison. My statement stands true. The sniper xbow is the single most expensive weapon in the game, WITHOUT including bolts.

2. xbow requires WM to use effectively, so yes, it DOES require a skill. Just 1 skill instead of 2 like the bow. That difference is paid for in the rate of fire, and lack of mobility while reloading. Without WPF, the targeting reticule is about the size of a throwing lance being thrown by a proficient thrower, which is to say, huge.

3. People who want a ranged option will find one. Personally, I'd rather have xbows than all the thrown spam that is going on these days. Balance > than EITHER of our opinions.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 01:08:50 pm by Heroin »
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Offline EponiCo

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Re: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?
« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2011, 02:21:36 pm »
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1. ONLY 20k? That price tag makes a sniper xbow and steel bolts the single most expensive weapon in all of crpg. And with a performance that is at the very least debatable, the price tag is unquestionably high for what you get. You just compared a single weapon to your entire gear loadout, wherein the prices were similar, and you stated that you felt this was as it should be. LAWL, wow.

2. Best xbow+bolts = 20k. Best bow + arrows = 13k. That is not a minimal difference, as you said. With the other 7k, an xbowman could get a decent set of light/medium armor, which makes sense, since the nature of xbows nearly demands that an xbowman enter into melee far more often than archers.

3. Even if the xbow + steel bolts was the same price as the best bow + best arrows(13k), a pure melee would still have more gold to pay for his weapons/armor(+13k). I think this is not only acceptable, but far more balanced than what we currently have.

No, I only compared it to my gear loadout without horse.
I take my 20k courser you take your 20k crossbow and shoot it, you win. I just paid 1k for an item I couldn't use. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that you can easily maintain crossbow/bow+some light armor+some mediocre weapon. (Archery => you take 2 stacks of bodkins, since they hurt only half as much as bolts). IIRC you complained about ease of picking up some ranged, and well, that's the prize.
About effectiveness, you can argue, but I found no problem using a sniper crossbow on maps that offered good cover. If you are going for K:D that's probably the best weapon, since it's very hard to die when spending 90% of the time behind cover while picking off people. Effectiveness for team is harder to say, but you can take out horses and archers that melee can't deal with - and eh, when you headshot Phyrex in his black plate open up a beer and relax the rest of the round. When you are mostly shooting you don't need so good melee, it's either a cleanup job or you make a last stand against scattered and wounded survivors.
So ... if you want to be crossbowman primarily, you can have sniper crossbow+steel bolts + cheap backup weapon for when you are going to shoot mostly (good map, much cav, whatever) and according to my experience that works, and normal crossbow+bolts + semi decent melee gear when you probably aren't.

edit: But yeah, I agree about the throwing, but for me it's simply that throwing needs nerf. If we buff other ranged again to it's level, we are where we were before the patch.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 02:23:04 pm by EponiCo »

Offline Xant

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Re: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?
« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2011, 03:53:10 pm »
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2. xbow requires WM to use effectively, so yes, it DOES require a skill. Just 1 skill instead of 2 like the bow. That difference is paid for in the rate of fire, and lack of mobility while reloading. Without WPF, the targeting reticule is about the size of a throwing lance being thrown by a proficient thrower, which is to say, huge

Wait, what? Throwing lances are that accurate?
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Offline Heroin

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Re: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?
« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2011, 10:47:52 pm »
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About effectiveness, you can argue, but I found no problem using a sniper crossbow on maps that offered good cover.

With no wpf? If that is what you're saying, I have trouble believing you. Unless by "no problem using it" you mean, you were able to load and fire it without hitting/killing anyone outside of melee.

First off, from "cover" typically means you're far removed from melee range. At that range, with no wpf, hitting someone is like buying a winning scratch-off ticket. Sure, it can happen, but don't bet on it.

Secondly, if you DID pick a winner and hit someone, it's not going to kill them unless they are hurt already, so it's a crap shoot anyhow.

Wait, what? Throwing lances are that accurate?

Not quite, perhaps it is a BIT of exaggeration, but lances can get pretty close to that accuracy on a dedicated thrower.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 10:50:10 pm by Heroin »
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Offline EponiCo

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Re: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?
« Reply #83 on: February 08, 2011, 02:55:48 pm »
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No, I had both archer and crossbowman after patch. Gen7 and retiring early is nice.

Offline Heroin

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Re: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?
« Reply #84 on: February 08, 2011, 09:11:45 pm »
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No, I had both archer and crossbowman after patch. Gen7 and retiring early is nice.

Good for you. Then you likely know that xbows are hardly worth it, since they don't kill anyone not already hurt, and getting 2 shots off on the same person doesn't happen unless the person you're shooting at is a moron and/or oblivious to their surroundings.
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Offline Trael

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Re: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?
« Reply #85 on: February 09, 2011, 12:05:35 am »
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The top weapon in each category *should be* so expensive that you can't have it all the time. That is proper balance with current upkeep.
not true, all my other chars can use best weapon or multiple near best weapons all the time, with other items.
crossbower can use only 0 upkeep, cheap 2h and sniper + steel, and does rarely do damage or hit becouse damage and firerate.

btw... do i just feel like it or is accuracy somewhat reversed on crossbows?
i mean lately on one of my other chars i have been using light crossbow with horse with _0 ha_ & _0 wpf_ and i seem to get quite decently small crosshair. Also seems that my crossbow char (some mid level or so) with 124 or so wpf gets smaller crosshair with lighter crossbow, even when stats show sniper having more accuracy... do i just feel like this or...

Offline Tai Feng

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Re: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?
« Reply #86 on: February 09, 2011, 03:08:43 am »
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I feel that crossbowmen are properly balanced and should not be buffed.
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Offline WaltF4

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Re: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?
« Reply #87 on: February 09, 2011, 04:16:05 am »
+1
btw... do i just feel like it or is accuracy somewhat reversed on crossbows?
i mean lately on one of my other chars i have been using light crossbow with horse with _0 ha_ & _0 wpf_ and i seem to get quite decently small crosshair. Also seems that my crossbow char (some mid level or so) with 124 or so wpf gets smaller crosshair with lighter crossbow, even when stats show sniper having more accuracy... do i just feel like this or...

I actually tested and can confirm your suspicion.

(click to show/hide)

Using the program ImageJ (free and awesome,) I measured the distance between the centers on the 3 interior circles in each reticule image. From these measurements I determined the “width” of the each reticule using the average distance between the interior circles. I used an average value here because, even at 1920x1080 resolution, the distance values had digitization and, more significantly, the distance between the bottom two circles is different that the distance from the upper circle to either lower circle.  I also determined the “area” of each reticule since projectile grouping are areal, not linear. This reticule area was defined as the area of a circumscribed circle for an equilateral triangle with edge length equal to the given reticule width. Below are plots of the reticule width and reticule area in pixels and pixels^2, respectively, as a function of crossbow proficiency.

(click to show/hide)

I'm not sure what the accuracy values on the website are suppose to be, but it does not appear to be accuracy in the traditional sense.

I also measured the time taken to expend 21 bolts (the one that comes loaded and a 20 bolt quiver) allowing for a minimized reticule each shot. I can also report that the agility of a character does not directly increase crossbow rate of fire.

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 04:19:42 am by WaltF4 »

Offline Heroin

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Re: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?
« Reply #88 on: February 09, 2011, 05:02:33 am »
+1
I actually tested and can confirm your suspicion.

(click to show/hide)

Using the program ImageJ (free and awesome,) I measured the distance between the centers on the 3 interior circles in each reticule image. From these measurements I determined the “width” of the each reticule using the average distance between the interior circles. I used an average value here because, even at 1920x1080 resolution, the distance values had digitization and, more significantly, the distance between the bottom two circles is different that the distance from the upper circle to either lower circle.  I also determined the “area” of each reticule since projectile grouping are areal, not linear. This reticule area was defined as the area of a circumscribed circle for an equilateral triangle with edge length equal to the given reticule width. Below are plots of the reticule width and reticule area in pixels and pixels^2, respectively, as a function of crossbow proficiency.

(click to show/hide)

I'm not sure what the accuracy values on the website are suppose to be, but it does not appear to be accuracy in the traditional sense.

I also measured the time taken to expend 21 bolts (the one that comes loaded and a 20 bolt quiver) allowing for a minimized reticule each shot. I can also report that the agility of a character does not directly increase crossbow rate of fire.

(click to show/hide)

Ah, I was wondering what you were doing firing your crossbow into the wall for so long. Excellent work Walt. I appreciate the effort, and the shared info, as I'm sure others do.
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Offline Gorath

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Re: Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?
« Reply #89 on: February 09, 2011, 06:04:53 am »
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I actually tested and can confirm your suspicion.

(click to show/hide)

Using the program ImageJ (free and awesome,) I measured the distance between the centers on the 3 interior circles in each reticule image. From these measurements I determined the “width” of the each reticule using the average distance between the interior circles. I used an average value here because, even at 1920x1080 resolution, the distance values had digitization and, more significantly, the distance between the bottom two circles is different that the distance from the upper circle to either lower circle.  I also determined the “area” of each reticule since projectile grouping are areal, not linear. This reticule area was defined as the area of a circumscribed circle for an equilateral triangle with edge length equal to the given reticule width. Below are plots of the reticule width and reticule area in pixels and pixels^2, respectively, as a function of crossbow proficiency.

(click to show/hide)

I'm not sure what the accuracy values on the website are suppose to be, but it does not appear to be accuracy in the traditional sense.

I also measured the time taken to expend 21 bolts (the one that comes loaded and a 20 bolt quiver) allowing for a minimized reticule each shot. I can also report that the agility of a character does not directly increase crossbow rate of fire.

(click to show/hide)

So your testing pretty much re-enforces my opinion that the best overall x-bows to use in all situations are the "normal" crossbow and the "heavy" crossbow.  Sniper x-bow is a waste of gold in that the damage increase from heavy/normal isn't enough to 1-shot anyone to compensate for the lower accuracy and extremely piss poor reload speed.  I've been using the "normal" x-bow now pretty religiously and other than uber armored people *cough*Goretooth's black armor*cough* I can 2-3 shot anyone with it, and 1 shot to the head seems to do the job.  I'll sell my sniper x-bow now and pick up the heavy and see how it performs in relation to the regular one.

Overall, x-bow damages seem rather "meh" considering they're sniper weapons.  1-shot well aimed, and then a massive reload time.  Rather than increasing the reload speed or damage I think I would rather see the actual projectile speed increased so it gets to the target a bit quicker.
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