BARMACE!@$@#%#!@^

[avmana]

Please make the barmace heavier/slower. Its ridiculous and unblockable with overhead swings crushing through every time 

[Mezzaluna]

The barmace is short. Use a longer weapon, the stab ability, or a ranged weapon to ward off the overhead smash. Polearms should have zero trouble with this, one-handers can stab (except picks, maces), and most comparable 2H are longer. Also, overhead smashes are easier to dodge.

[Braeden]

The barmace also doesn't really crush that often, unless the opposing weapon is very light or the user has a lot of powerstrike and strength.  That means they have little agility.

[Mattressi]

The barmace is short. Use a longer weapon, the stab ability, or a ranged weapon to ward off the overhead smash. Polearms should have zero trouble with this, one-handers can stab (except picks, maces), and most comparable 2H are longer. Also, overhead smashes are easier to dodge.

The bar mace isn't THAT short. Certainly a polearm or longish 2H can get a swing (or maybe even two) in before the bar mace user is in range, but it's not difficult to block a single strike (plus a single strike won't kill someone). Unless you're a ninja (or other suitably fast build) you won't be able to run backwards fast enough to continually back-pedal and swing out of their range.

The issue is that the bar mace is too fast for a crush-through weapon - hell, it's faster than most of the high-tier polearms! An overhead from a Great Maul is easy enough to spot and swing at so that the Maul user is hit and their strike interrupted - the bar mace, on the other hand, has a faster overhead animation than many 2H and polearm weapons (so there's no way in hell you could get a swing in after having spotted it). Again, unless you've got very high athletics, you can't backpedal quickly after spotting the overhead, and strafing does nothing (I've seen many people killed by a 'loloverhead' where the bar mace user does an overhead and spins around, killing whoever is near them with the final moments of the animation).

Also, this is coming from a bar mace user (granted, my level 22 bar mace character is nowhere near as awesome as the other bar mace guy on our - the Australian - server).

Edit: Braeden, the guy on the Aus server that crushes through frequently has 24 strength and 15 agility. Certainly other builds have a little more agi (18 or even 21), but 3 agi isn't enough to say "I'm so much faster than him that he'll never get a hit in!". It's got frigging 93 speed, so 15 agi + 93 speed will often hit you (even if it's a little less frequently than you hit them), plus it does enough damage that many are out of the fight after 1 or 2 hits.

[Mezzaluna]

The bar mace isn't THAT short. Certainly a polearm or longish 2H can get a swing (or maybe even two) in before the bar mace user is in range, but it's not difficult to block a single strike (plus a single strike won't kill someone). Unless you're a ninja (or other suitably fast build) you won't be able to run backwards fast enough to continually back-pedal and swing out of their range.

The issue is that the bar mace is too fast for a crush-through weapon - hell, it's faster than most of the high-tier polearms! An overhead from a Great Maul is easy enough to spot and swing at so that the Maul user is hit and their strike interrupted - the bar mace, on the other hand, has a faster overhead animation than many 2H and polearm weapons (so there's no way in hell you could get a swing in after having spotted it). Again, unless you've got very high athletics, you can't backpedal quickly after spotting the overhead, and strafing does nothing (I've seen many people killed by a 'loloverhead' where the bar mace user does an overhead and spins around, killing whoever is near them with the final moments of the animation).

Also, this is coming from a bar mace user (granted, my level 22 bar mace character is nowhere near as awesome as the other bar mace guy on our - the Australian - server).

Edit: Braeden, the guy on the Aus server that crushes through frequently has 24 strength and 15 agility. Certainly other builds have a little more agi (18 or even 21), but 3 agi isn't enough to say "I'm so much faster than him that he'll never get a hit in!". It's got frigging 93 speed, so 15 agi + 93 speed will often hit you (even if it's a little less frequently than you hit them), plus it does enough damage that many are out of the fight after 1 or 2 hits.

Once you get in your one or two swings, you've either hit and interrupted the overhead or forced the person to block. It's a fine counter. Length vs. speed is an essential tradeoff in the game; longer weapons get the first swing, but their users had better time it right. Also, crushthrough is determined by a formula that includes momentum and how long you hold the mace above your head, so you can't spam it without retreating first.

I agree that crushthrough is annoying. Blunt weapons already have a nice specialty with knockdown, so I wouldn't care if crushthrough was eliminated. I don't think it's a good excuse to nerf the whole weapon, though.

[Mattressi]

I agree that crushthrough is annoying. Blunt weapons already have a nice specialty with knockdown, so I wouldn't care if crushthrough was eliminated. I don't think it's a good excuse to nerf the whole weapon, though.

I'm fine with weapons having crushthrough, if their speed reflects it. The problem is that some of these weapons capable of crushthrough (which presumably must be reasonably heavy to do this) are as fast as non-crushthrough weapons. I just don't think it's right to have a weapon capable of crushthrough that swings as fast as a considerably lighter weapon which is incapable of crushthrough. I know the mod isn't about realism, but even from a balance perspective, it seems wrong to let something be significantly heavier than something, yet just as fast.

I say, make the speed and crushthrough reflect the weapons weight (more so, weight and weight distribution). When weight is distributed toward the end, the weapon will impart greater energy (hence force) on the target. Just think of using a hammer; if you hold it by the head it swings fast but doesn't hit very hard; if you hold it by the handle it swings slower but hits much harder. For an in game example, the Long Iron Mace has much of its weight distributed at the top end, meaning it will have more energy on target (due to having a higher moment of inertia) than a bar mace (despite the same mass), but will require more energy to be put into the swing (hence, less speed, generally). So, from a realism perspective, the LIM should crushthrough, but be slow, while the bar mace would not crushthrough (or at least, much less than the LIM) but be a fast blunt weapon. But, again, this mod isn't about realism. Still, I'd be happy with a fast, high blunt damage weapon that doesn't crushthrough (especially if the gave it a blunt stab too).

[ViiKOLD]

Maybe there are some misunderstanding. I have 2h char with 18str, barmace is my favourite weapon, it rarely crushtrhoug but 1hit kill quite often, due low armor and no IF invested, still people scream nerf in chat as they think they where killed due crushtrhoug.

To have guarantede crushtrhoug I've made char with 24str and 15agi, it's very slow, you need to be skilled to play such char effectively, so I don't think that nerfing weapon just because some of the players are good in using them is a valid approach.

[Vygar]

Crush Through should just be removed from CRPG or at the very least, impose more negatives to the weapons in question.  This ability is particularly inappropriate in a module that allows free-form character growth. Shield users have 2 counters including Bonus to Shield damage where only 1 counter is enough.  Shield users are gimped enough as it is.

Where are the 1-handed crush through weapons?

[Punisher]

I have 20 str and 6 PS and I don't crush-through often with the barmace (feels like 20% crush chance). You need at least 8 PS for crushing with the barmace (even 7 seems like a gamble) and someone with 8+ PS will have low agility and therefore his attacks are slow and easy to avoid.

[slothscott]

I think the top complaint with the barmace is its crushthrough but what some people don't seem to know is that it does not crush through sideswings. So the only attack that does crushthrough is the overhead, which is slower and harder to aim. The best way to defeat someone with a barmace is to a) Keep your distance ( they are most probably slow) b) If you have good reactions try to slash whenever they try to pull off an overhead c) Get ranged to take them out.

Warband is a game of scissor/paper/rock in some senses, if you have a 1h or a weapon that will get crushed through alot then don't expect to beat them, instead retreat and let your team fire upon them or try to get someone to help you take them out.

[DrKronic]

bar mace is slow, only crushes on overhead(and not always, need to have enemy in sweetspot where mace basically completes its swing(i.e. not facehug), I mean even though the polearm maces don't have crushthrough(asides from long great maul or whatever) most are better than bar mace, one has 34b, 95 speed and like 135 range, that one kills everyone and has knockdown, its like a bigger better bar mace minus the crushthrough

basically once the whining ends 2h will just be a weaker form of polearm without wpf usable shields and horse rear and shorter less damage axes/maces and our best weapons (2h swords) will be usable by polearm guys, oh wait it already is

[Rextard]

It's really annoying though, when you ~try~ to block one of those overhead attacks with your shield, which is worth thousands of gold, and the shield doesn't even break, but they still get through and profit a one swing kill. All your hp and all your shield's hp and all your armor, are at that point essentially worthless.

[Kalam]

The barmace also doesn't really crush that often, unless the opposing weapon is very light or the user has a lot of powerstrike and strength.  That means they have little agility.

I seem to get crush throughs every time with it, with a balanced build.

[Formless]

Personally I think crushthrough in crpg makes no sense.  I assume that the way these weapons worked in real life was because they were very heavy.  Which meant that they were slow and after a few swings the person using the weapon was tired out and ready for a nap.

In crpg there is no stamina bar and all the crushthrough weapons in Crpg are too fast for the bonuses they give. 

All a competant person playing Crpg with a barmace has to do to get a great K:D is to play in this way:

1.)  Approach an opponent
2.)  Block the first strike from opponent
3.)  Retaliate by an overhead swing
4.)  Repeat as necessary.

Just take out crushthrough from the game, otherwise soon we will have a new plauge on our hands :  The Crushthrough revolution.

[Punisher]

Personally I think crushthrough in crpg makes no sense.  I assume that the way these weapons worked in real life was because they were very heavy.  Which meant that they were slow and after a few swings the person using the weapon was tired out and ready for a nap.

In crpg there is no stamina bar and all the crushthrough weapons in Crpg are too fast for the bonuses they give. 

All a competant person playing Crpg with a barmace has to do to get a great K:D is to play in this way:

1.)  Approach an opponent
2.)  Block the first strike from opponent
3.)  Retaliate by an overhead swing
4.)  Repeat as necessary.

Just take out crushthrough from the game, otherwise soon we will have a new plauge on our hands :  The Crushthrough revolution.

Between 2) and 3) anyone who isn't using a strenght build himself can hit you and break your swing. Overhead is slow and needs a lot of strenght to be effective.