Longbow worse than pre-patch?

[Tomas_of_Miles]

How do you guys take measurements and figures?

[Jambi]

Atm Khergit or strongbow archers. Can draw and release there arrow just as fast for the longbow to release the arrow only.Also sometimes the Longbow wont release the arrow at all, or you need to doucle tab your left mouse button for it to release.. and hopefully still be a little accurate. But usually i will need to draw my arrow again. I have ping 24-30, so latency cant be the problem. And then there's also a huge chance the arrow would jsut simple skip thru the chest or head. Or skip thru the chest and hit the upper arm or something.
Right now the only 100% chance to hit someone is when the arrow lands into the belly or groin.

Also Warbow is still much much more valiable then Longbow is. Warbow shoots faster, and has a smaller crosshair. And most of the times it takes exact the same amount of arrows compared to a longbow, to kill a medium armored target. Not sure if 6PD is worth the costs of attribute/skill points

Tested this on the duel server.  Test it yourself.

The Longbow is way to slow, it leaves you very vulnarable.... and its to inaccurate to actually snipe with.

Id say, if you want to be a ranged... get a normal crossbow. It reloads super fast has good accuracy. And you can easly pick of archers with it in 2 shots, and reload behind cover. It also doesnt take too much strenght to use or Powerdraw, so you will have plenty points left to raise Agility, wich helps with Runspeed,reload time, Swing speed etc. Or start heirlooming a Strong bow/Khergit and start hoarding Powerdraw, too make up in damage, but you will be very slow.
I had a messed up build prepatch as an archer. I had 25 Agility and 0 athletics. I ran as fast as a previous archer with 18 agi and 6 athletics, too give you an example

[RagnarLodbroke]

I just got shot by 2 arrows from a longbow have 75 hp and had 56 body armor both arrows where in the body section one chest and 1 in arm..

Happy now???? u got your Counterstrike now Sssh it all rdy and be happy..

/end thread

This my friend is called pure BS!

[Tennenoth]

Well, congratulations on the alleged increase in the longbow, I am happy that this has come about, it will mean that at least one of my heirlooms will not be completely useless to me from now on!

I'll trust you on your figures but some proper full equations would be good imho so that people can see exactly what you typed in to get those answers, I for one have a graphical calculator and would like to see what you got... graphically.

I will continue to use the Fine longbow as that's what the bog-standard one "next patch" whenever that will be, will be so, I really do think I will start to enjoy the whole longbow archery again!

[Glyph]

i think they should give the longbow just a bit more damage to improve...well damage. because it was THE strongest bow out there and i think it's true to say it isn't that precies, because i'm doing archery in RL myself and a lonbow doesn't draw as smooth as for example a horsebow like the strong,Khergit or nomadbow. and a longbow requires a lot of strength to draw back. so that explains the slow speed of the bow. so the only loggical think to buff is damage.

[CaptainQuantum]

Here are the ones I used (as posted earlier), as Ulrist said they are experimental and only approximations, but as Ulrist verified they are close to the real thing, so for graphical stuff here they are "D=(d - s*a)(1-(r*a/100))*p where d is the base damage per shot, s is the soak factor, r is the reduction factor and p is some probabilistic modifier". The real ones are slightly different, they have the proportionalities pretty close, these don't overlap at the current 24p damage, but with the real ones there is an overlap on very high armours I believe. I haven't done calculations with the real equations now though since the longbow is already being fixed, I may sit down and do some maths with them if anyone requests though. But for now I have vector calculus to do since I have some university exams coming up soon, so these ones provided will be all for now, will be back in a couple of hours. 

I best leave some assistance here on how to find these s and r values too, they can be found in your module.ini for crpg, I will post them here anyway
armor_soak_factor_against_cut       = 0.8
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce    = 0.65
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt     = 0.5

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut       = 1.0
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce    = 0.5
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt     = 0.75 .
On my method, I just worked out d for each bow, substituted the respective values of s and r for each bow then set them equal to one another to find the break even point, my findings with these equations were that there wasn't a break even point (you get complex solutions). So with a graphical calculator you can see this without the whiteboard I filled with simultaneous quadratic equations. [Without the fun though] I must be clear that these are approximate formulae, the real ones do have an overlap, I only used these because I couldn't find the hard coded ones, they are a reasonable indicator though, just to give respect to Ulrist for looking into this with hard coded equations.

[Jambi]

I tihnk they are planning to make a new bow. aka flavour of the month. Yumi Bow....

So basicly, they rather add something new, then to fix something old

[MouthnHoof]

@CaptainQuantum:
The damage of projectile also depends on the projectile speed. In the module.ini file there is also a switch that determines if this speed bonus scales linearly or quadratically. It has a significant effect on the damage, especially if it scales with power of 2. The bigger bows have a higher shot speed. Another parameter is the air viscosity which slows projectiles down. This is responsible for the damage reduction over distance.

[Tomas_of_Miles]

@CaptainQuantum:
The damage of projectile also depends on the projectile speed. In the module.ini file there is also a switch that determines if this speed bonus scales linearly or quadratically. It has a significant effect on the damage, especially if it scales with power of 2. The bigger bows have a higher shot speed. Another parameter is the air viscosity which slows projectiles down. This is responsible for the damage reduction over distance.

I'm guessing whether the rain is on or not is the air viscosity in Warband's physics engine. Apparently the rain was always on, which may or may not have been fixed, it was day on the battle server yesterday.

[CaptainQuantum]

@CaptainQuantum:
The damage of projectile also depends on the projectile speed. In the module.ini file there is also a switch that determines if this speed bonus scales linearly or quadratically. It has a significant effect on the damage, especially if it scales with power of 2. The bigger bows have a higher shot speed. Another parameter is the air viscosity which slows projectiles down. This is responsible for the damage reduction over distance.

I know this, it is in the calculation of d that this appears, however I could not find the equation that filters this in, so unfortunately I had to omit it. But the equation I gave is still valid as long as you filter that into d yourself, since I am still searching for the exact dependance on speed. For crpg it's not entirely a quadratic dependance, but a value of 1.9 is there in the module.ini. My guess is that it scales as speed^1.9, but am unsure of other constants of proportionality, I will search the equations Ulrist supplied me with. However this will have to wait for another hour since I am still doing unviersity work, unless you want to find the circulation around a closed loop of path x^2 + y^2 = a^2 directly and using Stoke's theorem this shall have to wait .

[CaptainQuantum]

Ok vector calculus done, I am back but my brain is tired. Will try to look over the equatiosn to gauge how the 1.9 actually affects the speed damage bonus (whether it is actually speed rating^1.9 or something more subtle). In fact Paul is viewing this thread so could you please explain rather than me reading through the equations since you know a lot more about how this game works than I do.

[Paul]

@CaptainQuantum:
The damage of projectile also depends on the projectile speed. In the module.ini file there is also a switch that determines if this speed bonus scales linearly or quadratically. It has a significant effect on the damage, especially if it scales with power of 2. The bigger bows have a higher shot speed.

Oh god, no. The ingame speed-damage relation is only there to dermine damage gain or loss if the impact damage differs from the starting damage. That means if the projectile is fired point blank and does not alter its speed on the way, the damage is not related at all to the "shot speed".
However if a projectile is fired over a bigger distance or uphill it loses speed and thus damage. On the other side shooting at a lower target might increase the damage, especially if the initial shot speed is low like it is the case for a throwing weapon.

The ingame calc is based on the concept of kinetic energy(Ekin = 1/2 * m * v^2), that means the damage-speed relation is almost a square(^1.9) one.

Here some examples to make it clear. I'm using the square relation.

impact_speed = k * starting_speed
impact_damage = k^2 * normal_damage


1.
A crossbow is fired point blank at a target. The air friction can't lower the projectile speed significantly. Furthermore there is no height difference between shooter and victim.
k=1
impact_speed = starting_speed
impact_damage = normal_damage

2.
An arrow is fired at a far away target and scores a lucky hit. However the projectile velocity is lowered to 60% by the air friction during the flight.
k=0.6
impact_speed = 0.6 * starting_speed
impact_damage = 0.36 * normal_damage

3. A slow shot speed throwing weapon is thrown down a high wall and hits. The air friction can be neclected because of the short distance but gravity increases the speed greatly compared to the starting speed. It is 80% faster on impact.
k=1.8
impact_speed = 1.8 * starting_speed
impact_damage = 3.24 * normal_damage

4. From the same wall a heavy crossbow is fired. Again, the friction can be neclected but because of the initial high shooting speed of the crossbow, the fall can only increase the projectile speed by a small percentive(1%).
k=1.01
impact_speed = 1.01 * starting_speed
impact_damage = 1.02 * normal_damage

[kono yaro!]

How do I even make the longbow crosshair tight? i have 8 soon 9 powerdraw, and pre-patch powerdraw made the aim tighter. ??

[CaptainQuantum]

How do I even make the longbow crosshair tight? i have 8 soon 9 powerdraw, and pre-patch powerdraw made the aim tighter. ??

This patch reduced the accuracy of the longbow, my crosshair has never been tight for archery, however probably the largest factor will be heirlooming. Power draw works slightly differently now I believe, especially since you have high PD there, if your PD is significantly higher than WPF then the PD becomes less useful per point.

Thanks for explaining that Paul by the way that would of took a considerable amount of time for me to figure out. That model makes complete sense, yet I didn't know whether that would be the case, just out of interest does the code have differential equations for the air resistance or pre calculated values? Rather cool they model increase from gravity too though.

[kono yaro!]

This patch reduced the accuracy of the longbow, my crosshair has never been tight for archery, however probably the largest factor will be heirlooming. Power draw works slightly differently now I believe, especially since you have high PD there, if your PD is significantly higher than WPF then the PD becomes less useful per point.

Thanks for explaining that Paul by the way that would of took a considerable amount of time for me to figure out. That model makes complete sense, yet I didn't know whether that would be the case, just out of interest does the code have differential equations for the air resistance or pre calculated values? Rather cool they model increase from gravity too though.

Damn, guess my build is FUBAR'd then.

30/12
10 PD
141 wpf